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Authentic or Reproducation? - 1793 Chain Cent (Answer Revealed in 1st Post)
STONE
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I'm leaving this open to interpretation. Please explain what you are seeing.
Here's where I found it:Linky Dinky
Here's where I found it:Linky Dinky
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the letters are hand engraved into the dies on this piece, whereas letter punches were used in the genuine dies.
I'd say there's a red flag the size of a bedsheet runnin' up the pole, though.
Edit to add: though I've never owned a Chain cent and have only held one in hand once (a top-tier BN MS!), I must say that the date numerals, particularly the 3, look hinky to me, as they do on many Chinese replicas. I am not suggesting this is a Chinese replica- it could be a much older fake- or, for all I know, it could be a real coin that somebody tooled to death. But I have my strong doubts.
In any event, I would avoid it.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>the letters are hand engraved into the dies on this piece, whereas letter punches were used in the genuine dies. >>
Aha. That would explain why the date looks hinky to me.
I wasn't sure, because tooling can change the look of lettering and numbers, but of course somebody who's tooling a coin is probably more likely to spend most of his time on the major design elements like the portrait.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
A linguine hair chain cent...
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So, you're saying it's genuine??
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>Nobody told them that the lettering wears before the chain.
Maybe that's why the letters got extensively reworked, too?
The tooling here is the wild card- it obscures any references I personally would be able to use to make a determination, and I lack the specialized knowledge necessary to dig any deeper into the mystery.
A genuine but vandalized piece, or a crafty modern reproduction made to look like an old school alteration as a smokescreen to cover the pickup points?
Naturally, I have no idea.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Lance.
<< <i>Reproduction, not genuine.
Lance. >>
Care to elaborate?
without having the coin in-hand:
the images are closest to the S4 - period after date and liberty
the lettering is spaced too far, the truncation is too long
still some other very large differences, also cannot see the edge, nor the thickness
it appears to either be extremely modified or a flat-out counterfeit
not certain if it is a contemporary one
a last resort would be comparing this to the NCs for the year, that would be a real shame
.
<< <i>
<< <i>Reproduction, not genuine.
Lance. >>
Care to elaborate? >>
Just a gut feel. If it's genuine and tooled it is overdone and not believable. Why throw away a valuable authentic one?
Winston, do you know the answer? I hope you don't leave us wondering.
Lance.
Kind of like one of mine!
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>If it's genuine and tooled it is overdone and not believable. Why throw away a valuable authentic one? >>
Good question, but if it was indeed a genuine coin that got tooled, it was likely done a long time ago, and while Chain cents have always been desirable to collectors, I doubt they were proportionately as valuable in the 19th century, let's say. Nor were many collectors as sophisticated as today's lot. I knew there were examples out there like the one AnkurJ posted.
If it's a modern reproduction, then somebody went through some trouble and painstaking handwork to make it look like an old school tooling job and they did that as a smokescreen to obscure the diagnostic clues, as I said earlier. Otherwise, it's an authentic coin that got rudely handled by a tasteless and unskilled scam artist long ago, perhaps more than a century back. The jury's still out on that, as far as my own personal court of opinion goes.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>Too tough to tell, but I think it's a heavily reengraved genuine Chain Cent. However if submitted, I would probably expect a No Decision/Refund. >>
My thoughts exactly. Can't tell from the pics if it's real or not but it's been so heavily worked over that it would be extremely difficult to authenticate it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When I saw this coin/counterfeit I was immediately struck by SO many things which didn't look right,
even if it has been expertly tooled throughout.
I am about to update this thread to show where I found this coin and what the seller is advertising it as
-- Stack's, The January 2012 Americana Sale
It would be worth a lot more in a genuine holder, obviously. But I agree that PCGS wouldn't authenticate it.
Lance.
The features are too bold for this piece to be authentic.
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.
Albert Einstein (14 March 1879--18 April 1955)
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
before I seen the answer was revealed I was going to ask the weight.
My guess, $4000. (copper guys are crazy, in case you didn't know)
<< <i>So, the next question is, "What is it worth?", or more accurately, what will it go for?
My guess, $4000. (copper guys are crazy, in case you didn't know) >>
That much for a ruined coin would be truely crazy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>So, the next question is, "What is it worth?", or more accurately, what will it go for?
My guess, $4000. (copper guys are crazy, in case you didn't know) >>
Yeh, I was thinking more $1000-1500