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Is this another fake PCGS slab on eBay??? MS66RD 1909-S VDB
illini420
Posts: 11,544 ✭✭✭✭✭
First, please note that I have never dealt with this seller before and I have not contacted them about the coin yet. I am also not interested in purchasing the coin at this time... not quite ready to make that upgrade and if I were, eBay wouldn't be my first stop.
That said, since I often search 1909 dated coins on eBay just to keep up on values and to pick up the occasional cool looking 1909 VDB, this particular auction for a 1909-S VDB in PCGS MS66RD caught my eye.
Link to eBay auction
At first look, the coin just looked artifically colored to me and with the spotting that appears to be on the coin, it just didn't look to be an MS66RD unless it had turned in the holder. Of course, the photos are very poor (especially for a coin of this value) so I figured it could have just been the bad photos. Also, the font on the lettering on the PCGS label just didn't look right, but that could have been the photo as well I thought. Then I noticed the seller says no returns are allowed.
Decided to check the certification number on the PCGS site which you can see here:
Cert Verification Page
Because the cert verification is now linked to auction results, I was able to see that the coin had recently sold in a Heritage auction. You can see the Heritage listing and much better photos at the following link:
Heritage Auction Link
The coin on Heritage has a much better color and appears spot free. Also, the font on the label looks slightly different to me and also the barcode on the labels seem slightly off (see the thicker bars under the ".66"
Even with the bad eBay photos, they just don't look like the same coin to me. Just wondering if the eBay coin is a definite fake PCGS slab, or whether my eyes are just playing tricks on me at 1 am. Thoughts??
Either way, I'm glad the PCGS cert verification page now shows auction history for that cert number... very helpful.
That said, since I often search 1909 dated coins on eBay just to keep up on values and to pick up the occasional cool looking 1909 VDB, this particular auction for a 1909-S VDB in PCGS MS66RD caught my eye.
Link to eBay auction
At first look, the coin just looked artifically colored to me and with the spotting that appears to be on the coin, it just didn't look to be an MS66RD unless it had turned in the holder. Of course, the photos are very poor (especially for a coin of this value) so I figured it could have just been the bad photos. Also, the font on the lettering on the PCGS label just didn't look right, but that could have been the photo as well I thought. Then I noticed the seller says no returns are allowed.
Decided to check the certification number on the PCGS site which you can see here:
Cert Verification Page
Because the cert verification is now linked to auction results, I was able to see that the coin had recently sold in a Heritage auction. You can see the Heritage listing and much better photos at the following link:
Heritage Auction Link
The coin on Heritage has a much better color and appears spot free. Also, the font on the label looks slightly different to me and also the barcode on the labels seem slightly off (see the thicker bars under the ".66"
Even with the bad eBay photos, they just don't look like the same coin to me. Just wondering if the eBay coin is a definite fake PCGS slab, or whether my eyes are just playing tricks on me at 1 am. Thoughts??
Either way, I'm glad the PCGS cert verification page now shows auction history for that cert number... very helpful.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
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Comments
<< <i>Yes, totally fake coin, totally fake slab. >>
How do you know the coin is fake?
Folks be very careful out there. The fakes being reported on the forum tend to be the lower quality fake slabs. It is a relatively easy task to match fonts, and plastic so that the fake slab can not be spotted from a photo. Put in a slightly lower grade real coin into that fake holder and it is going to fool almost everyone looking at an image, and almost every Ebay buyer.
Again, Ebay is not a safe place to buy. For every fake reported here, there are likely 100 fakes being sold and kept by collectors. Many still do not know about fake slabs and still think buying certified is safe. It isn't. Venue is no longer much protection either. Many fakes are being bought on Ebay and being resold at small shows, flea markets and local coin club auctions, or even flipped again on Ebay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
1894 Morgan from same seller
P.S. He made a purchase on ebay from hnai.com on Dec 21, 2010
FAST pay-great customer A+ Seller:
Member id hnai.com ( Feedback Score Of 24682Yellow shooting star icon for feedback score in between 10,000 to 24,999)
Dec-21-10 08:32
-- (#120655734434) --
The eBay seller has several high dollar coin transactions that people gave positive feedback for, so I think the eBay seller might have been taken whenever they purchased this coin.
<< <i>Think this 1894 Morgan looks legit?
1894 Morgan from same seller >>
Okay, I retract what I just wrote above lol...this person knows they're selling fake slabs. That Morgan is awful!
<< <i>Think this 1894 Morgan looks legit? >>
Fake Coin and Fake Slab.
Reported.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
A 1909 S VDB PCGS MS66 was sold by Heritage in January 2011 with the exact same certification number as your auction, but the coin in your photos does not look anything like the one that sold there, based on Heritage's archives. Are you certain this coin is legitimate?
We'll see.
Lance.
<< <i>So I asked the guy (through ebay):
A 1909 S VDB PCGS MS66 was sold by Heritage in January 2011 with the exact same certification number as your auction, but the coin in your photos does not look anything like the one that sold there, based on Heritage's archives. Are you certain this coin is legitimate?
We'll see. >>
Aren't you concerned that he may block you from bidding on his auctions?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I hope PCGS takes care of this. >>
I'd love to see it turned into a sting.
Lance.
Gee, I didn't think of that
<< <i>I guess that forum ebay seller that said 1 in 1,000,000 odds of buying a fake has now seen that "fake coin" jackpot hit three times in a short time period.
Folks be very careful out there. The fakes being reported on the forum tend to be the lower quality fake slabs. It is a relatively easy task to match fonts, and plastic so that the fake slab can not be spotted from a photo. Put in a slightly lower grade real coin into that fake holder and it is going to fool almost everyone looking at an image, and almost every Ebay buyer.
Again, Ebay is not a safe place to buy. For every fake reported here, there are likely 100 fakes being sold and kept by collectors. Many still do not know about fake slabs and still think buying certified is safe. It isn't. Venue is no longer much protection either. Many fakes are being bought on Ebay and being resold at small shows, flea markets and local coin club auctions, or even flipped again on Ebay. >>
Red Tiger,
Frankly, the odds are sill very very low. 3 fake slabs. How many million coins are there on ebay? If you read the rest of my posts in that thead I talked how easy it is to protect yourself. I don't think there are a lot of fakes that don't go undetected here. First they are pretty easy to detect if you do a little research and second, there are lots of sharp eyes here.
I hope you're not making many friends by gloating over fake slabs and bashing ebay.
--Jerry
Auction has been ended.
<< <i>Seller replied asking for a link to the Heritage auction, which has been provided.
Auction has been ended. >>
Busted! I guess he'll have to find a different venue to sell it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Seller replied asking for a link to the Heritage auction, which has been provided.
Auction has been ended. >>
Busted! I guess he'll have to find a different venue to sell it. >>
Yes, if an increase of fake slabs are showing up on ebay there are many more of them elsewhere. eBay is the most public place to sell. A scammer's paradise is one on one with an unsuspecting newby. On ebay there are way too many eyes.
notice this was a 3 day auction on friday hoping to get it sold before ebay took it down.
--Jerry
<< <i>Seller replied asking for a link to the Heritage auction, which has been provided.
Auction has been ended. >>
That sounds like he was unsuspecting and didn't know he had a fake. However, the 3 day auction on friday makes it look to me like he did. Now he knows what he is up against and probably won't try ebay again. --Jerry
He did state he bought it from a seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Ebay. It's baaaack. >>
One day auction -
Text
THIS IS A RARE 1909 S VDB 1C MS66RD
IT HAS GREAT LUSTER AND DARK BROWN TEXTURE.
GET THIS COIN WHEN IT'S AT LOW PRICE BEFORE CHRISTMAS...
THIS IS A 1 DAY AUCTION THAT HAS 'NO RESERVE' WOW!!!
BID WITH CONFIDENCE.
PLEASE PAY VIA PAYPAL.
THANKS
NOTE : I HAVE RELISTED THIS AUCTION SINCE, EARLIER SOME BUYERS ASKED THIS WAS LEGITIMATE AND I FOUND THAT THIS A GENUINE COIN. I HAVE ADDED SOME MORE IMAGES.
He also has a 10oz gold bar for sale.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ebay. It's baaaack. >>
One day auction -
Text >>
Ha. We're going to play that game, huh? Well, let's shut him down again.
Lance.
<< <i>I will ship the bar within 10-15 days. >>
.
well done
a few reports will get the seller audited by ebay/paypal
i've had to jump through many hoops and pass their's and paypal's tests, and passed them with flying colors i did
any legit seller shouldn't mind and shouldn't have too much difficulty passing a few obstacles
.
Well done, guys!
<< <i>I told you the 3 day auction on friday was almost a guarantee that he is a scammer not an innocent bystander. >>
If there was any doubt before, with him now offering it as a 1-day auction during a weekend, all doubt about this seller has now been removed.
Reported.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Bidded to $10099 with four bids.
Well done, guys!
Oh, that's you guys bidding! Awesome!
<< <i>I guess that forum ebay seller that said 1 in 1,000,000 odds of buying a fake has now seen that "fake coin" jackpot hit three times in a short time period.
Folks be very careful out there. The fakes being reported on the forum tend to be the lower quality fake slabs. It is a relatively easy task to match fonts, and plastic so that the fake slab can not be spotted from a photo. Put in a slightly lower grade real coin into that fake holder and it is going to fool almost everyone looking at an image, and almost every Ebay buyer.
Again, Ebay is not a safe place to buy. For every fake reported here, there are likely 100 fakes being sold and kept by collectors. Many still do not know about fake slabs and still think buying certified is safe. It isn't. Venue is no longer much protection either. Many fakes are being bought on Ebay and being resold at small shows, flea markets and local coin club auctions, or even flipped again on Ebay. >>
This ... is a scary thought.
<< <i>Bidded to $10099 with four bids.
Well done, guys!
<< <i>It could be a cleaned or lower-grade genuine SVDB put in a fake MS-66 holder to get way more money than the coin is worth >>
That's my thought, the bad photos make it look it looks like a pinkish/cleaned AU with carbon blooming.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>So if someone gets multiple fake reprimands from eBay does eBay yank their account? >>
yes. but maybe not on the weekend. --Jerry
<< <i>NOTE : I HAVE RELISTED THIS AUCTION SINCE, EARLIER SOME BUYERS ASKED THIS WAS LEGITIMATE AND I FOUND THAT THIS A GENUINE COIN. I HAVE ADDED SOME MORE IMAGES. >>
Notice that he says it's a genuine coin but does not mention if the slab is genuine or explain how it can be so different from the HA pics.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700