<< <i>Come on listen yourself you are comparing apples to oranges, my not wanting to look for an Ike variety in a collection is akin to not wanting to look for a used prophylactic in a sewer. >>
I've read a lot of classy and informative posts on this forum. The quoted post is not one of them.
Seriously- is it really necessary to denigrate the coins other people choose to collect with such imagery?
Five tons - hundreds of bags! - in bank storage for 35 years. I can't imagine what the storage fees came out to.
Salute the automobile: The greatest anti-pollution device in human history! (Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Kind of like die marriages, eh? Why consider varieties rare when hardly anyone looks for them is kind of like saying that die marriages shouldn't be rare because hardly anyone looks for them. There we go, collecting made easy for the masses!
>>
the difference being how many die marriages of Ike's are there when compared to 10 die marriages for lets say an 1829 10c, and lets not forget a 200 year age difference to boot. Come on listen yourself you are comparing apples to oranges, my not wanting to look for an Ike variety in a collection is akin to not wanting to look for a used prophylactic in a sewer. >>
No, not really. Your imposing YOUR beliefs on what others want to do with their collecting. Saying there is a 200 year difference, in the way you are saying it, is snobbery and your nose must definitely be pointed up.
I'm still not sure why folks have to look down on those that don't collect the way THEY think someone should collect...
If someone wants to collect moderns, let them. It's their money. If someone wants to collect Ike varities, let them. It's their money. If someone wants to collect everyman sets, let them. It's their money. If someone wants to collect PO1 examples, let them. It's their money.
Hell, if someone wants to collect boogers once used as coin, let them.
There are some folks that never come down on people for what they collect, and yet they have some excellent old-time collections themselves. They don't need to put on an air of superiority and look down on others.
So, I say, finding the Ikes is cool. Littleton will overcharge. I hope some cool toners and coins are found (new varities, etc). And yet, I still won't collect them (yes, I have some Ikes, but I am not a heavy collector of them...some are fun though). I even have a Type2 that I bought from a board member years ago. Ikes can be cool. I have 200+ year old coins as well. They can be cool.
And, no one, especially not me, said YOU should go looking for Ike varities. It's not all about you I'm surprised someone like you even opened a thread about Ike's......except I guess you have to open it to diss on them...
Considering copper and nickel metal values these days, one wonders what the melt value is for CN Ikes.
IMHO, there are a substantial number of Ike collections out there due to their short duration, issuance during the baby boom generation, and the general romance of the silver dollar.
The registry competition for Ikes seems pretty serious and eclipses WLHs, which I always thought were VERY popular due to their beauty.
Here is my collection, which spent several decades in a deluxe Whitman, until being sprung several years ago and placed in a Capital. This thread made me bring the set out - it is always fun looking at these big bruisers.
The Capital folder plastic cover reflects light and makes picture taking tough, thus the photo quality does not show off some of the mild colors the Whitman holder bestowed upon the CN coins, especially the 71P&D, 72P&D, 73P, 74P, 74S CN proof, and the 78P.
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Kind of like die marriages, eh? Why consider varieties rare when hardly anyone looks for them is kind of like saying that die marriages shouldn't be rare because hardly anyone looks for them. There we go, collecting made easy for the masses!
>>
the difference being how many die marriages of Ike's are there when compared to 10 die marriages for lets say an 1829 10c, and lets not forget a 200 year age difference to boot. Come on listen yourself you are comparing apples to oranges, my not wanting to look for an Ike variety in a collection is akin to not wanting to look for a used prophylactic in a sewer. >>
I find it laughable that a collector of "so called" top pop half dimes by die marriage looks down on ike variety collectors because "nobody looks for them".
I'd wager there are 100 ike collectors for every half dime collector...easy, and I believe you should re-think your logic here, Realone.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Not meant to bash modern collectors just meant to inform some . >>
I would think an effort to inform people would best be made by someone with expertise on the topic, not by someone who has expressly claimed no interest in the series. But then, that's just me...
<< <i>you really think one who doesn't know Ike's but is familair with other series isn't knowledgeable to discuss other but similar subject matter. So now one must be an absolute expert in a series to discuss/inform, you got to be kidding. >>
How, exactly, are you thinking of informing people about Ikes when you admit that you do not know anything about their value:
"I felt it would be unfair for me to comment on the value of said coin since I know nothing about their values and knowing that there are values and imho unfound values put on many of them by certain Ike collectors I thought it was best that I stay far away from them."
Would you accept recommendations on collecting what you do from someone who doesn't have an interest in or knowledge of the series?
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Once again taken out of context after I wrote the above. It disturbs me when newbees come into the hobby and are fed info that if they pay a premium for Ike die varieties they will do well on their purchase. Newbees are told that the die varieties are rare of very scarce etc only because of what is printed in the pop reports but what they aren't told is that many are yet to be found simply because rolls haven't been search and not because they either weren't minted or didn't survive. I think there is nothing wrong with collecting Ike's, I happen to thing the design is interesting and I also like Ike as a general and President but giving false info or hopes t newbees is just plain wrong.......understand what I am trying to say. Everyone here should collect what they want without being made fun of, but repeating or giving false info when it comes to rarity or using the same sheldon rarity scale with these types as it is used with lets say bust coinage is like comparing apples to oranges. I also said that I looked at a collection and ignored the Ikes, again i what I was trying to say is that in appraising the collection I a)felt it would be unfair for me to comment on the value of said coin since I know nothing about their values and knowing that there are values and imho unfound values put on many of them by certain Ike collectors I thought it was best that I stay far away from them. I personally feel that Ikes/moderns should not be valued in the same way classics are valued, since their mintages are huge and they their survival numbers are too and again it is unfair to rely on pop reports for series' that haven't been entirely searched. Not meant to bash modern collectors just meant to inform some . >>
Thank you for the clarification. That was not -- at all -- what I got from your post.
Considering what you collect, you should understand conditional rarity and the risk of investing in such coins. Moderns and classics are no different -- both have risk of new conditional rarities appearing in the market -- and are only different in degree.
However, what you appear to fail to realize is that the very same argument you make against Ike varieties can also be made against bust half dimes. Of course they are apples and oranges -- but they are both fruit!
In order to appreciate this point, please consider the following...
How is this event any different from an old-time collection of, say, 50 high-grade raw bust dimes being found and bought/resold by [insert dealer here]?
Would the effect of this event (i.e. the Littleton find) be any different to the "noob" collecting ike varieties than the effect of that event on a top-pop bust half dime collector?
Think about it.
Just some food for thought....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Since the coins came from Helena I would think Wayne Miller would know who owned them. If I remember right I think Wayne actually told me about a large quantity (like 200-250 bags of BU Ikes) being owned by an individual when I asked about Original BU Ike $1 rolls back in 2000-2001.
I asked John Diekhans (who founded Montana Coin & Stamp in Billings - retired since 1995) if Ikes were popular in Montana. His answer was "no, because silver dollars go 'clink' and Ikes go 'clunk'". Montanans didn't consider Ikes as any kind of substitute for the real thing.
According to LCC's press release, I got the impression these Ikes were all Denver Mint products (which makes sense since Denver serviced this region.) I'd like to see a list of dates and quantities.
<< <i>My sewer comment was a poor analogy btw and I should have made that statement of which I do apologize. But I do feel strongly that many collectors are getting taken to the bank thinking that they are acquiring rare varieties by relying on pop reports or certain experts that wear two hats, one as a noted expert and the other that stands to gain from their knowldege in the filed and only telling part of the story. Varieties is big business, one needs to understand that, and the experts who promote the varieties aren't telling the complete story imho. >>
Well... ...in that case you're mostly just wrong.
Obviously there are profiteers everywhere but with most moderns and especially Ikes WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).
If you don't like Ikes don't buy them. But there are no huge hoards of rare coins. This is what the term "rare" means. If there were hoards of nice choice '74 Ikes with pleasing surfaces then they wouldn't be rare. Since they are rare they are as difficult to acquire as choice 1804 cents. They used to be far more difficult because at one time the only wayto find one was to look through tons of mint sets.
Clad King, I agree with you re: BU 1974 Ikes. One has to look through countless 1974 mint sets to find a suitable P-mint example that PCGS might like as MS-65 (let alone MS-66.) Since 1998 I have slabbed several examples of 1973-P & 1974-P Ikes in PCGS MS66. There were a few 73-P's I actually liked as MS66 but only 1 or 2 of the 74-P's stood out as superb - this is a tough coin to find nice.
Some people act as though any coin made in their own life time is out there reproducing so there is no limit to the supply. Actually it works the other way round. The moderns have far higher attrition and this even applies to scarce coins.
They don't make 1804 cents nor 1974 Ikes any longer.
<< <i> I agree with you re: BU 1974 Ikes. One has to look through countless 1974 mint sets to find a suitable P-mint example that PCGS might like as MS-65 (let alone MS-66.) Since 1998 I have slabbed several examples of 1973-P & 1974-P Ikes in PCGS MS66. There were a few 73-P's I actually liked as MS66 but only 1 or 2 of the 74-P's stood out as superb - this is a tough coin to find nice. >>
Yeah, just nice attractive coins with attractive surfaces can be a small challenge. MS-63+ examples with nice strikes and good surfaces account for about 3% of mint set production. I shudder to think how tough they are in rolls but haven't seen enough rolls to get a han- dle on it. Sometimes Ikes can actually be easier in rolls than sets especially at the lower levels.
The same thing applies to '81-P quarters. If you want flat surfaces you're going to be look- ing a good long while.
People have the idea that all the gems are common as can be but the fact is even attractive MS-63+ coins can be pretty elusive and there are varieties where you have to give up on uncs altogether.
"but have you ever looked thru an original bag of Ikes???"
Yes, I have. I recently cut open a mint sealed bag of 1978-P.
Basically, nearly 1,000 "junkers". Even if a couple coins grade MS66, when you take into account the cost of the bag and my time, I will be lucky to make $1/hour for my trouble.
The numismatic value of the experience ... priceless.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Once again taken out of context after I wrote the above. It disturbs me when newbees come into the hobby and are fed info that if they pay a premium for Ike die varieties they will do well on their purchase. Newbees are told that the die varieties are rare of very scarce etc only because of what is printed in the pop reports but what they aren't told is that many are yet to be found simply because rolls haven't been search and not because they either weren't minted or didn't survive. I think there is nothing wrong with collecting Ike's, I happen to thing the design is interesting and I also like Ike as a general and President but giving false info or hopes t newbees is just plain wrong.......understand what I am trying to say. Everyone here should collect what they want without being made fun of, but repeating or giving false info when it comes to rarity or using the same sheldon rarity scale with these types as it is used with lets say bust coinage is like comparing apples to oranges. I also said that I looked at a collection and ignored the Ikes, again i what I was trying to say is that in appraising the collection I a)felt it would be unfair for me to comment on the value of said coin since I know nothing about their values and knowing that there are values and imho unfound values put on many of them by certain Ike collectors I thought it was best that I stay far away from them. I personally feel that Ikes/moderns should not be valued in the same way classics are valued, since their mintages are huge and they their survival numbers are too and again it is unfair to rely on pop reports for series' that haven't been entirely searched. Not meant to bash modern collectors just meant to inform some . >>
Thank you for the clarification. That was not -- at all -- what I got from your post.
Considering what you collect, you should understand conditional rarity and the risk of investing in such coins. Moderns and classics are no different -- both have risk of new conditional rarities appearing in the market -- and are only different in degree.
However, what you appear to fail to realize is that the very same argument you make against Ike varieties can also be made against bust half dimes. Of course they are apples and oranges -- but they are both fruit!
In order to appreciate this point, please consider the following...
How is this event any different from an old-time collection of, say, 50 high-grade raw bust dimes being found and bought/resold by [insert dealer here]?
Would the effect of this event (i.e. the Littleton find) be any different to the "noob" collecting ike varieties than the effect of that event on a top-pop bust half dime collector?
Think about it.
Just some food for thought....Mike >>
of course it can happen and that is the risk one takes when colelcting such. But it becomes more remote as each 100 years go by. Lets talk bust dimes, our own Winston recetnly found 2 1829 10c JR-10, the curl bust 2 to bring hte total to approx 36 known in all grades. The finest one a vf35 would probably go for approx 60k-75k at auction but if a small hoard of them were found in high grade what would the impact be on the price of the vf35? But again this is a variety that can be easily distinguished, the curled 2 int he date but at the same time if you don't know that the curl is what makes it special one would never know what they have. But due to the publicity of the rarity it has been scoured over for over 40 years, with Winston being one of the main scourers LOL. But the total mintage of all of the 1829's was 770,000 and with the passage of time, 190 years and with just 10 varieties the odds are a whole lot better for date and series. And compare that ot the moderns, and again nothing wrong with collecting them, but one has to realize being of an age of with the IKe's of 40 years old, a ton minted, an unknown huge quantity saved and varieties that are microscopic it lends itself to many collector's being duped into believing that the pop reports represent a mere snapshot of a collecting genre that might just be forcing misinformation down its collector's throats. If not many are looking for a variety and thus not many are found does that mean the pop report can be relied upon as having amassed real reliable info? I say not and would hope a grain of salt is added to the shoulder, that is all I am saying. I would rather take my chances with 200 year old varieties than the new ones with respect to depending on the pop reports and paying any related premiums. >>
A few points...
First, while the risk "becomes more remote as each 100 years go by", the relative few bust half dimes to begin with make the impact of a find even larger -- so you're only looking at part of the equation. Said a bit more directly, add one or twenty more MS 65 1972 Type 2 to the population and not much if anything goes to the price of the other 65s, do that same thing with a cache of one to three pop 1 jr-10s, and you have a different story entirely. So from that perspective, the risk in your half dimes is even larger. Bottom line -- risk is both probability PLUS financial exposure, and you only focused on the former.
Second, nobody is "forcing misinformation down its collector's throats". It is available for all, and fundamentally no different from Valentine's rarity estimates -- they are all imperfect estimates of the unknown surviving specimens.
Third, and another point which seems lost on you, is that many/most Ike collectors cherrypick their varieties (i.e. don't pay a premium) -- quite unlike the bust half dime market where the premium for a JR-10 is well known to the market in general. So who's really taking more risk? Someone who buys a rare (or not so rare) Ike variety for $2, or someone who spends $60k on a VF-35 JR-10?
Fourth, the raw number of Ike collectors makes the market much less risky than the bust half dime market. If I stop buying Ikes tomorrow, nothing happens to the market. If you go away tomorrow, the bust half dime market suffers much, much more.
Fifth, if your intent was to add a "grain of salt" to the discussion, perhaps you should do so without looking down your nose at other collectors. Many/most of which have been collecting for far longer than you have. Perhaps you should give more respect to those who have decided to collect these coins, because fundamentally they are in a market very similar to your own interest. The facts are you are completely ignorant of the Ike variety market, and you should consider that perspective before furthering "misinformation" or forming strong (and divisive) opinions on topics you know nothing about.
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>"but have you ever looked thru an original bag of Ikes???"
Yes, I have. I recently cut open a mint sealed bag of 1978-P.
Basically, nearly 1,000 "junkers". Even if a couple coins grade MS66, when you take into account the cost of the bag and my time, I will be lucky to make $1/hour for my trouble.
The numismatic value of the experience ... priceless. >>
Finding nice choice MS-63 and 64 1978 Ikes is easy. A couple of 66's in a bag isn't too unlikely and with luck a 67 might even show up. (the chance of a 68 is about the same as getting hit by lightning).
It's not like Morgans where gems just roll out of a bag and PL's are rampant. Some Ike dates look more like yesterday's trash than like gems. Not every Morgan bag is great (many thousands still exist) and not every Ike bag was junk but the odds are with those who collect moderns for scarce coins to just get scarcer with the passage of time. A couple hundred years will not only prove the Ikes are tougher but there will still be more attrition on the Ikes since they're cheaper TODAY. The attrition on Ikes will drop to as low as the attrition on Morgans only when they become as valuable.
They aren't making Morgans or Ikes any longer (this offer not available in China).
A critical factor of the importance of these 220 bags is whether they are original Mint-sealed bags taken from then current production. or are they re-bagged Ikes from those returned to the FRB as the initial wave of enthusiasm faded?
If each of the 220 bags is original, the Ikes physically toward the center of the bag stand a decent chance of having minimal actual bag damage as the Ikes toward the periphery of the bag absorb most of the sliding damage. Denver was actually quite fastideous about how their Ikes were handled so much of the abuse their output suffered in '71-'72 was from die sink, dies being pushed too hard and abrasion-repaired too often, and inadequaate planchet annealing.
Under the best of circumstances, however, as others have said, the odds of a significant increase in top-pop Ikes from this hoard is very, very small.
Also, IMVHO, unless Littleton kills this "silver" goose by squeezing it too hard for profits, the Eisenhower Dollar Series will gain much more from this hoard than it could potentially lose if there are a relatively large number of top pops therein. And it may be good timing that the Ike Group's "Volume 1" will be published this Summer with our new catalog of the series and its collectible varieties.
I am curious who LIttleton is using to screen these Ikes for Varieties. It's quite possible, for example, that one or more 71-D bags could have a high percentage (even 100%) of FEV's.
While there are not many collectible Denver hub-doubled dies other than the remarkable 72-D 1/1, who among us Ike nuts wouldn't give our eye-teeth to cherry this hoard? Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
<< <i>Also, IMVHO, unless Littleton kills this "silver" goose by squeezing it too hard for profits, the Eisenhower Dollar Series will gain much more from this hoard than it could potentially lose if there are a relatively large number of top pops therein. And it may be good timing that the Ike Group's "Volume 1" will be published this Summer with our new catalog of the series and its collectible varieties. >>
I strongly agree. One of the biggest factors working against Ikes is that gem coins are so scarce that they can't become the basis of a widespread hobby. Even if the near gems and choice coins are included there just aren't enough for tens of thousands of collectors. But just as the huge increase in supply of unc Morgans propelled that market in 1963 an increase today could well work strongly in favor of the Ikes. Coupled with the new Ike book already out and the one coming in the summer interest could well go far higher than supply.
Ikes have been dormant for several years now and it's past due for the pendulum to swing back this way.
I was a 'hater' of Ikes until I found that there were a LOT of excellent varieties to be found in them. There are nice DDO's on many of the years, and enough 1971 varieties from all 3 mints to make for very nice hunting. I wish I could have a week with that hoard.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
I must admit that when I saw the words "Ike dollar" my interest level dropped significantly...but as soon as I saw the words "Littleton Coin Company" attached to this "hoard" I lost all interest.
No one will make a nickel on these coins...except them. Bank on it.
And any significant varieties, new top pops, etc, (if any- which I highly doubt) will also run through them...at their usual retail-times-three++ pricing.
This announcement imo is just a PR move designed to expand their customer list, and little to nothing more.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Also won the PNG's Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
Comments
<< <i>Come on listen yourself you are comparing apples to oranges, my not wanting to look for an Ike variety in a collection is akin to not wanting to look for a used prophylactic in a sewer. >>
I've read a lot of classy and informative posts on this forum. The quoted post is not one of them.
Seriously- is it really necessary to denigrate the coins other people choose to collect with such imagery?
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Kind of like die marriages, eh? Why consider varieties rare when hardly anyone looks for them is kind of like saying that die marriages shouldn't be rare because hardly anyone looks for them.
There we go, collecting made easy for the masses!
the difference being how many die marriages of Ike's are there when compared to 10 die marriages for lets say an 1829 10c, and lets not forget a 200 year age difference to boot. Come on listen yourself you are comparing apples to oranges, my not wanting to look for an Ike variety in a collection is akin to not wanting to look for a used prophylactic in a sewer. >>
No, not really. Your imposing YOUR beliefs on what others want to do with their collecting. Saying there is a 200 year difference, in the way you are saying it, is snobbery and your nose must definitely be pointed up.
I'm still not sure why folks have to look down on those that don't collect the way THEY think someone should collect...
If someone wants to collect moderns, let them. It's their money.
If someone wants to collect Ike varities, let them. It's their money.
If someone wants to collect everyman sets, let them. It's their money.
If someone wants to collect PO1 examples, let them. It's their money.
Hell, if someone wants to collect boogers once used as coin, let them.
There are some folks that never come down on people for what they collect, and yet they have some excellent old-time collections themselves. They don't need to put on an air of superiority and look down on others.
So, I say, finding the Ikes is cool. Littleton will overcharge. I hope some cool toners and coins are found (new varities, etc). And yet, I still won't collect them (yes, I have some Ikes, but I am not a heavy collector of them...some are fun though). I even have a Type2 that I bought from a board member years ago. Ikes can be cool. I have 200+ year old coins as well. They can be cool.
And, no one, especially not me, said YOU should go looking for Ike varities. It's not all about you
I'm surprised someone like you even opened a thread about Ike's......except I guess you have to open it to diss on them...
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
IMHO, there are a substantial number of Ike collections out there due to their short duration, issuance during the baby boom generation, and the general romance of the silver dollar.
The registry competition for Ikes seems pretty serious and eclipses WLHs, which I always thought were VERY popular due to their beauty.
Here is my collection, which spent several decades in a deluxe Whitman, until being sprung several years ago and placed in a Capital. This thread made me bring the set out - it is always fun looking at these big bruisers.
The Capital folder plastic cover reflects light and makes picture taking tough, thus the photo quality does not show off some of the mild colors the Whitman holder bestowed upon the CN coins, especially the 71P&D, 72P&D, 73P, 74P, 74S CN proof, and the 78P.
I like Ike.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Kind of like die marriages, eh? Why consider varieties rare when hardly anyone looks for them is kind of like saying that die marriages shouldn't be rare because hardly anyone looks for them.
There we go, collecting made easy for the masses!
the difference being how many die marriages of Ike's are there when compared to 10 die marriages for lets say an 1829 10c, and lets not forget a 200 year age difference to boot. Come on listen yourself you are comparing apples to oranges, my not wanting to look for an Ike variety in a collection is akin to not wanting to look for a used prophylactic in a sewer. >>
I find it laughable that a collector of "so called" top pop half dimes by die marriage looks down on ike variety collectors because "nobody looks for them".
I'd wager there are 100 ike collectors for every half dime collector...easy, and I believe you should re-think your logic here, Realone.
<< <i>My guess is top pops will stay intact. Yes it's a lot of Ikes, but have you ever looked thru an original bag of Ikes???
I have and there are rarely even MS65 quality Ikes in them.
If they are in Montana, they have to have been moved a few times, but you never know. >>
This guy gets it.
I think the top-pops are safe (most/all of the top pop coins come from mint sets not bags), but as James says, you never know.
<< <i>Not meant to bash modern collectors just meant to inform some . >>
I would think an effort to inform people would best be made by someone with expertise on the topic, not by someone who has expressly claimed no interest in the series. But then, that's just me...
<< <i>you really think one who doesn't know Ike's but is familair with other series isn't knowledgeable to discuss other but similar subject matter. So now one must be an absolute expert in a series to discuss/inform, you got to be kidding. >>
How, exactly, are you thinking of informing people about Ikes when you admit that you do not know anything about their value:
"I felt it would be unfair for me to comment on the value of said coin since I know nothing about their values and knowing that there are values and imho unfound values put on many of them by certain Ike collectors I thought it was best that I stay far away from them."
Would you accept recommendations on collecting what you do from someone who doesn't have an interest in or knowledge of the series?
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Once again taken out of context after I wrote the above. It disturbs me when newbees come into the hobby and are fed info that if they pay a premium for Ike die varieties they will do well on their purchase. Newbees are told that the die varieties are rare of very scarce etc only because of what is printed in the pop reports but what they aren't told is that many are yet to be found simply because rolls haven't been search and not because they either weren't minted or didn't survive. I think there is nothing wrong with collecting Ike's, I happen to thing the design is interesting and I also like Ike as a general and President but giving false info or hopes t newbees is just plain wrong.......understand what I am trying to say. Everyone here should collect what they want without being made fun of, but repeating or giving false info when it comes to rarity or using the same sheldon rarity scale with these types as it is used with lets say bust coinage is like comparing apples to oranges.
I also said that I looked at a collection and ignored the Ikes, again i what I was trying to say is that in appraising the collection I a)felt it would be unfair for me to comment on the value of said coin since I know nothing about their values and knowing that there are values and imho unfound values put on many of them by certain Ike collectors I thought it was best that I stay far away from them. I personally feel that Ikes/moderns should not be valued in the same way classics are valued, since their mintages are huge and they their survival numbers are too and again it is unfair to rely on pop reports for series' that haven't been entirely searched. Not meant to bash modern collectors just meant to inform some . >>
Thank you for the clarification. That was not -- at all -- what I got from your post.
Considering what you collect, you should understand conditional rarity and the risk of investing in such coins. Moderns and classics are no different -- both have risk of new conditional rarities appearing in the market -- and are only different in degree.
However, what you appear to fail to realize is that the very same argument you make against Ike varieties can also be made against bust half dimes. Of course they are apples and oranges -- but they are both fruit!
In order to appreciate this point, please consider the following...
How is this event any different from an old-time collection of, say, 50 high-grade raw bust dimes being found and bought/resold by [insert dealer here]?
Would the effect of this event (i.e. the Littleton find) be any different to the "noob" collecting ike varieties than the effect of that event on a top-pop bust half dime collector?
Think about it.
Just some food for thought....Mike
I asked John Diekhans (who founded Montana Coin & Stamp in Billings - retired since 1995) if Ikes were popular in Montana. His answer was "no, because silver dollars go 'clink' and Ikes go 'clunk'". Montanans didn't consider Ikes as any kind of substitute for the real thing.
According to LCC's press release, I got the impression these Ikes were all Denver Mint products (which makes sense since Denver serviced this region.) I'd like to see a list of dates and quantities.
<< <i>My sewer comment was a poor analogy btw and I should have made that statement of which I do apologize. But I do feel strongly that many collectors are getting taken to the bank thinking that they are acquiring rare varieties by relying on pop reports or certain experts that wear two hats, one as a noted expert and the other that stands to gain from their knowldege in the filed and only telling part of the story. Varieties is big business, one needs to understand that, and the experts who promote the varieties aren't telling the complete story imho. >>
Well... ...in that case you're mostly just wrong.
Obviously there are profiteers everywhere but with most moderns and especially Ikes WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).
If you don't like Ikes don't buy them. But there are no huge hoards of rare coins. This is what the term "rare" means. If there were hoards of nice choice '74 Ikes with pleasing surfaces then they wouldn't be rare. Since they are rare they are as difficult to acquire as choice 1804 cents. They used to be far more difficult because at one time the only wayto find one was to look through tons of mint sets.
reproducing so there is no limit to the supply. Actually it works the other way
round. The moderns have far higher attrition and this even applies to scarce
coins.
They don't make 1804 cents nor 1974 Ikes any longer.
<< <i> I agree with you re: BU 1974 Ikes. One has to look through countless 1974 mint sets to find a suitable P-mint example that PCGS might like as MS-65 (let alone MS-66.) Since 1998 I have slabbed several examples of 1973-P & 1974-P Ikes in PCGS MS66. There were a few 73-P's I actually liked as MS66 but only 1 or 2 of the 74-P's stood out as superb - this is a tough coin to find nice. >>
Yeah, just nice attractive coins with attractive surfaces can be a small challenge. MS-63+
examples with nice strikes and good surfaces account for about 3% of mint set production.
I shudder to think how tough they are in rolls but haven't seen enough rolls to get a han-
dle on it. Sometimes Ikes can actually be easier in rolls than sets especially at the lower
levels.
The same thing applies to '81-P quarters. If you want flat surfaces you're going to be look-
ing a good long while.
People have the idea that all the gems are common as can be but the fact is even attractive
MS-63+ coins can be pretty elusive and there are varieties where you have to give up on
uncs altogether.
Yes, I have. I recently cut open a mint sealed bag of 1978-P.
Basically, nearly 1,000 "junkers". Even if a couple coins grade MS66, when you take into account the cost of the bag and my time, I will be lucky to make $1/hour for my trouble.
The numismatic value of the experience ... priceless.
Wondercoin
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>One of the reasons why Ike varieties should not be considered rare is because practically no one looks for them, so if you are one of the few obtaining a so-called top pops is doable. I recently received a ole time colelction to review and it had large colelction of all the Ikes, I ignored them. >>
Once again taken out of context after I wrote the above. It disturbs me when newbees come into the hobby and are fed info that if they pay a premium for Ike die varieties they will do well on their purchase. Newbees are told that the die varieties are rare of very scarce etc only because of what is printed in the pop reports but what they aren't told is that many are yet to be found simply because rolls haven't been search and not because they either weren't minted or didn't survive. I think there is nothing wrong with collecting Ike's, I happen to thing the design is interesting and I also like Ike as a general and President but giving false info or hopes t newbees is just plain wrong.......understand what I am trying to say. Everyone here should collect what they want without being made fun of, but repeating or giving false info when it comes to rarity or using the same sheldon rarity scale with these types as it is used with lets say bust coinage is like comparing apples to oranges.
I also said that I looked at a collection and ignored the Ikes, again i what I was trying to say is that in appraising the collection I a)felt it would be unfair for me to comment on the value of said coin since I know nothing about their values and knowing that there are values and imho unfound values put on many of them by certain Ike collectors I thought it was best that I stay far away from them. I personally feel that Ikes/moderns should not be valued in the same way classics are valued, since their mintages are huge and they their survival numbers are too and again it is unfair to rely on pop reports for series' that haven't been entirely searched. Not meant to bash modern collectors just meant to inform some . >>
Thank you for the clarification. That was not -- at all -- what I got from your post.
Considering what you collect, you should understand conditional rarity and the risk of investing in such coins. Moderns and classics are no different -- both have risk of new conditional rarities appearing in the market -- and are only different in degree.
However, what you appear to fail to realize is that the very same argument you make against Ike varieties can also be made against bust half dimes. Of course they are apples and oranges -- but they are both fruit!
In order to appreciate this point, please consider the following...
How is this event any different from an old-time collection of, say, 50 high-grade raw bust dimes being found and bought/resold by [insert dealer here]?
Would the effect of this event (i.e. the Littleton find) be any different to the "noob" collecting ike varieties than the effect of that event on a top-pop bust half dime collector?
Think about it.
Just some food for thought....Mike >>
A few points...
First, while the risk "becomes more remote as each 100 years go by", the relative few bust half dimes to begin with make the impact of a find even larger -- so you're only looking at part of the equation. Said a bit more directly, add one or twenty more MS 65 1972 Type 2 to the population and not much if anything goes to the price of the other 65s, do that same thing with a cache of one to three pop 1 jr-10s, and you have a different story entirely. So from that perspective, the risk in your half dimes is even larger. Bottom line -- risk is both probability PLUS financial exposure, and you only focused on the former.
Second, nobody is "forcing misinformation down its collector's throats". It is available for all, and fundamentally no different from Valentine's rarity estimates -- they are all imperfect estimates of the unknown surviving specimens.
Third, and another point which seems lost on you, is that many/most Ike collectors cherrypick their varieties (i.e. don't pay a premium) -- quite unlike the bust half dime market where the premium for a JR-10 is well known to the market in general. So who's really taking more risk? Someone who buys a rare (or not so rare) Ike variety for $2, or someone who spends $60k on a VF-35 JR-10?
Fourth, the raw number of Ike collectors makes the market much less risky than the bust half dime market. If I stop buying Ikes tomorrow, nothing happens to the market. If you go away tomorrow, the bust half dime market suffers much, much more.
Fifth, if your intent was to add a "grain of salt" to the discussion, perhaps you should do so without looking down your nose at other collectors. Many/most of which have been collecting for far longer than you have. Perhaps you should give more respect to those who have decided to collect these coins, because fundamentally they are in a market very similar to your own interest. The facts are you are completely ignorant of the Ike variety market, and you should consider that perspective before furthering "misinformation" or forming strong (and divisive) opinions on topics you know nothing about.
Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>"but have you ever looked thru an original bag of Ikes???"
Yes, I have. I recently cut open a mint sealed bag of 1978-P.
Basically, nearly 1,000 "junkers". Even if a couple coins grade MS66, when you take into account the cost of the bag and my time, I will be lucky to make $1/hour for my trouble.
The numismatic value of the experience ... priceless.
>>
Finding nice choice MS-63 and 64 1978 Ikes is easy. A couple of 66's in a bag isn't too unlikely and
with luck a 67 might even show up. (the chance of a 68 is about the same as getting hit by lightning).
It's not like Morgans where gems just roll out of a bag and PL's are rampant. Some Ike dates look
more like yesterday's trash than like gems. Not every Morgan bag is great (many thousands still exist)
and not every Ike bag was junk but the odds are with those who collect moderns for scarce coins to
just get scarcer with the passage of time. A couple hundred years will not only prove the Ikes are
tougher but there will still be more attrition on the Ikes since they're cheaper TODAY. The attrition on
Ikes will drop to as low as the attrition on Morgans only when they become as valuable.
They aren't making Morgans or Ikes any longer (this offer not available in China).
If each of the 220 bags is original, the Ikes physically toward the center of the bag stand a decent chance of having minimal actual bag damage as the Ikes toward the periphery of the bag absorb most of the sliding damage. Denver was actually quite fastideous about how their Ikes were handled so much of the abuse their output suffered in '71-'72 was from die sink, dies being pushed too hard and abrasion-repaired too often, and inadequaate planchet annealing.
Under the best of circumstances, however, as others have said, the odds of a significant increase in top-pop Ikes from this hoard is very, very small.
Also, IMVHO, unless Littleton kills this "silver" goose by squeezing it too hard for profits, the Eisenhower Dollar Series will gain much more from this hoard than it could potentially lose if there are a relatively large number of top pops therein. And it may be good timing that the Ike Group's "Volume 1" will be published this Summer with our new catalog of the series and its collectible varieties.
I am curious who LIttleton is using to screen these Ikes for Varieties. It's quite possible, for example, that one or more 71-D bags could have a high percentage (even 100%) of FEV's.
While there are not many collectible Denver hub-doubled dies other than the remarkable 72-D 1/1, who among us Ike nuts wouldn't give our eye-teeth to cherry this hoard? Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>Also, IMVHO, unless Littleton kills this "silver" goose by squeezing it too hard for profits, the Eisenhower Dollar Series will gain much more from this hoard than it could potentially lose if there are a relatively large number of top pops therein. And it may be good timing that the Ike Group's "Volume 1" will be published this Summer with our new catalog of the series and its collectible varieties.
>>
I strongly agree. One of the biggest factors working against Ikes is that gem coins
are so scarce that they can't become the basis of a widespread hobby. Even if the near
gems and choice coins are included there just aren't enough for tens of thousands of
collectors. But just as the huge increase in supply of unc Morgans propelled that market
in 1963 an increase today could well work strongly in favor of the Ikes. Coupled with
the new Ike book already out and the one coming in the summer interest could well go
far higher than supply.
Ikes have been dormant for several years now and it's past due for the pendulum to
swing back this way.
No one will make a nickel on these coins...except them. Bank on it.
And any significant varieties, new top pops, etc, (if any- which I highly doubt) will also run through them...at their usual retail-times-three++ pricing.
This announcement imo is just a PR move designed to expand their customer list, and little to nothing more.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The name is LEE!
Yeeha
<< <i>I see on the Littleton page they are ngc, mostly ms60-ms65, also 74-d in ms66. Anyone familiar with the ngc pops see any changes in ms67s? >>
I would think that if they had any MS67's at all, they'd be offering those as they represent a serious profit margin.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>I see on the Littleton page they are ngc, mostly ms60-ms65, also 74-d in ms66. Anyone familiar with the ngc pops see any changes in ms67s? >>
I would think that if they had any MS67's at all, they'd be offering those as they represent a serious profit margin. >>
I agree. It is starting to look like there will not be a big impact on the top pops.
They were very worn and circulated, and no doubt had performed honorable service in the slot machines of Reno.
I sold them on Ebay for US $117 plus shipping ($12 then).
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