<< <i>It seems to me uncalled for to say NJCC's statement was from a high horse. Just the truth, inconvenient as it may be. The OP question seeks a shortcut or "rule of thumb" for something that does not lend itself to such simple rules. For some things, such shortcuts are more trouble than help. >>
I characterized NJCC's post as coming from a high horse because - a. Telling me he had seen "rolls of...that are pure white and totally original" doesn't help me. As a dealer, it makes sense that he's seen many more coins than me and it seems reasonable that he would see some very old coins that were blast white and original. But he didn't bother to tell me how he knew they were original. He didn't bother to educate me. He just implied that since he's seen them, that's good enough and I should be taking his word for it. b. He went on to state that it was ignorant to "make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces". You copied my response to that in your post so you know what I think. But I will add that one definition of ignorant is "Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated." Sounds pretty demeaning to me and I didn't appreciate it.
But let's get back to my original purpose for this thread -
When you see a blast white coin older than a certain date, are you suspicious of that coin's originality? What is that date? Is there a different date for different coins?
Are Mercury Dimes, WLHs and SLQs ok because they weren't minted until 1916?
Do you initially give all Morgan Dollars the benefit of the doubt because they might have come straight from a mint sewn bag?
What about blast white seated liberty coins from the mid 19th century?
Again, what "general rules of thumb" do you use to help you assess the likelihood that a coin minted before a certain date is not original if it's blast white?
I never asked for absolutes here. I never said there weren't exceptions. I just asked for opinions.
And I still don't think having such rules of thumb make me ignorant.
Sorry if you think I ride around on a high horse. I think my history of educating collectors stands on it's own merit. Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of ignorance. It isn't a bad word. It simply means lack of knowledge.
You might want to look into the ANA's summer seminars. They provide a wealth of information in a variety of classes and subjects.
NJCC >>
I did look up the definition of ignorance and I didn't like what I found, hence my response to you.
I can't argue with the fact that you have a good history of educating collectors, but I can say you didn't make much of an effort to educate me or the other forum members with your earlier post.
I might look into going to the summer seminars...but I work for a living, so I come on here to learn and to share.
Sorry if you think I ride around on a high horse. I think my history of educating collectors stands on it's own merit. Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of ignorance. It isn't a bad word. It simply means lack of knowledge.
You might want to look into the ANA's summer seminars. They provide a wealth of information in a variety of classes and subjects.
NJCC >>
And your a fine teacher!
BTW, the only white coins I want to own need to have superb luster.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The only coins I would place beneath dipped coins are harshly cleaned or damaged/tooled coins. IMHO dipped coins in any holder should sell for a subsantial discount to an orignal example of the same date even if the grading companies view them as "market acceptable". I do believe that these coins should be re-holdered as genuine coins as they are cleaned.
It doesn’t happen very often, but as a detectorist, I’ve occasionally seen some pristine silver coins come out of the ground that were blast white and even had luster. A friend of mine once dug a 1908-D Barber dime in my presence that had to have been AU58, and it came right out of the soil looking like it had just been dropped. A little water to rinse off the loose dirt, and presto, there it was. No dipping done. I am sure there are other even more stable environmental conditions that would allow a silver coin to remain basically untoned and white for decades, if not centuries.
I’ve seen 200+ year old copper coins that were full red and presumably original. Yes, I know color on copper is just as contentious a topic, but I do feel certain there ARE original red pieces out there that have remained that way over centuries… so why not silver? Silver is, after all, a bit more environmentally “stable” than copper, right?
And I’ve seen pictures of a 2c piece dug out West that had original red luster on it- that’s extremely rare for a ground find, but it can happen. In certain lucky conditions, a coin can be in a long-term state of “suspension”. I wonder about dry caves, and such. Hey, if paper (well, papyrus) like the Dead Sea scrolls can survive a couple of thousand years, why not coins? Too bad they didn’t also find some red Mint State Judaean prutahs and Roman sestertii in the caves too, eh?
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
GoldClause - All four of those coins look dipped to me. I just think coins that old should have a lot more crust/gunk/toning...just not look that "clean".
The top two with "dusty white surfaces" just look to me like they've started to retone nicely.
Lord M you are 100 percent correct there. The sugar sands of the south jersey pine barrens can preserve a coin almost perfect, but if the coin was dropped in an area that was farmed, and fertilizers and our friend sulfur in its many forms made its way into the soil...its another story completely.
Too...If a collector active in 1882 Pittsburg owned a lovely cabinet of coins...they would look far different in 1934 when his estate was sold than a collector who had the identical cabinet of coins but lived in New Mexico.
<< <i>GoldClause - All four of those coins look dipped to me. I just think coins that old should have a lot more crust/gunk/toning...just not look that "clean".
The top two with "dusty white surfaces" just look to me like they've started to retone nicely. >>
Don't worry MidLifeCrisis, when the general fashion is to prefer dirty/gunky coins, the doctors will turn the dipped coins back for you.
<< <i>Yeah, all 4 of those are dipped-out. That dusty surface is just luster-less from over-dipping. >>
Incorrect. >>
Goodness, open your eyes. That MS64 was handled and it shows on the high points. The handling probably left the high points heavily toned, but not worn, so would still have made a low MS grade. But after removing the toning the coin got an MS64, which it does not deserve.
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
<< <i>It doesn’t happen very often, but as a detectorist, I’ve occasionally seen some pristine silver coins come out of the ground that were blast white and even had luster. A friend of mine once dug a 1908-D Barber dime in my presence that had to have been AU58, and it came right out of the soil looking like it had just been dropped. A little water to rinse off the loose dirt, and presto, there it was. No dipping done. I am sure there are other even more stable environmental conditions that would allow a silver coin to remain basically untoned and white for decades, if not centuries.
I’ve seen 200+ year old copper coins that were full red and presumably original. Yes, I know color on copper is just as contentious a topic, but I do feel certain there ARE original red pieces out there that have remained that way over centuries… so why not silver? Silver is, after all, a bit more environmentally “stable” than copper, right?
And I’ve seen pictures of a 2c piece dug out West that had original red luster on it- that’s extremely rare for a ground find, but it can happen. In certain lucky conditions, a coin can be in a long-term state of “suspension”. I wonder about dry caves, and such. Hey, if paper (well, papyrus) like the Dead Sea scrolls can survive a couple of thousand years, why not coins? Too bad they didn’t also find some red Mint State Judaean prutahs and Roman sestertii in the caves too, eh? >>
And as someone who is familiar with ancients, you know that there have been the occasional discovery of ancient hoards where the coins were so well protected that some of the denarii were still white.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The first 2 coins have a pleasing look to them, while they have both possibly had a rinse in water there is nothing offensive about their appearance. The second pair of coins are what I would call overdipped/cleaned coins, they are ugly and should only be slabbed as genuine/cleaned.
Comments
<< <i>It seems to me uncalled for to say NJCC's statement was from a high horse. Just the truth, inconvenient as it may be. The OP question seeks a shortcut or "rule of thumb" for something that does not lend itself to such simple rules. For some things, such shortcuts are more trouble than help. >>
I characterized NJCC's post as coming from a high horse because -
a. Telling me he had seen "rolls of...that are pure white and totally original" doesn't help me. As a dealer, it makes sense that he's seen many more coins than me and it seems reasonable that he would see some very old coins that were blast white and original. But he didn't bother to tell me how he knew they were original. He didn't bother to educate me. He just implied that since he's seen them, that's good enough and I should be taking his word for it.
b. He went on to state that it was ignorant to "make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces". You copied my response to that in your post so you know what I think. But I will add that one definition of ignorant is "Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated." Sounds pretty demeaning to me and I didn't appreciate it.
But let's get back to my original purpose for this thread -
When you see a blast white coin older than a certain date, are you suspicious of that coin's originality? What is that date? Is there a different date for different coins?
Are Mercury Dimes, WLHs and SLQs ok because they weren't minted until 1916?
Do you initially give all Morgan Dollars the benefit of the doubt because they might have come straight from a mint sewn bag?
What about blast white seated liberty coins from the mid 19th century?
Again, what "general rules of thumb" do you use to help you assess the likelihood that a coin minted before a certain date is not original if it's blast white?
I never asked for absolutes here. I never said there weren't exceptions. I just asked for opinions.
And I still don't think having such rules of thumb make me ignorant.
<< <i>Midlifecrisis,
Sorry if you think I ride around on a high horse. I think my history of educating collectors stands on it's own merit. Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of ignorance. It isn't a bad word. It simply means lack of knowledge.
You might want to look into the ANA's summer seminars. They provide a wealth of information in a variety of classes and subjects.
NJCC >>
I did look up the definition of ignorance and I didn't like what I found, hence my response to you.
I can't argue with the fact that you have a good history of educating collectors, but I can say you didn't make much of an effort to educate me or the other forum members with your earlier post.
I might look into going to the summer seminars...but I work for a living, so I come on here to learn and to share.
<< <i>Midlifecrisis,
Sorry if you think I ride around on a high horse. I think my history of educating collectors stands on it's own merit. Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of ignorance. It isn't a bad word. It simply means lack of knowledge.
You might want to look into the ANA's summer seminars. They provide a wealth of information in a variety of classes and subjects.
NJCC >>
And your a fine teacher!
BTW, the only white coins I want to own need to have superb luster.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
IMHO dipped coins in any holder should sell for a subsantial discount to an orignal example of the same date even if the grading companies view them as "market acceptable".
I do believe that these coins should be re-holdered as genuine coins as they are cleaned.
I’ve seen 200+ year old copper coins that were full red and presumably original. Yes, I know color on copper is just as contentious a topic, but I do feel certain there ARE original red pieces out there that have remained that way over centuries… so why not silver? Silver is, after all, a bit more environmentally “stable” than copper, right?
And I’ve seen pictures of a 2c piece dug out West that had original red luster on it- that’s extremely rare for a ground find, but it can happen. In certain lucky conditions, a coin can be in a long-term state of “suspension”. I wonder about dry caves, and such. Hey, if paper (well, papyrus) like the Dead Sea scrolls can survive a couple of thousand years, why not coins? Too bad they didn’t also find some red Mint State Judaean prutahs and Roman sestertii in the caves too, eh?
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
<< <i>Enough with all the banter. Let's see some of these original white coins from the early 1900's and before. Morgans exluded. >>
These exhibit the "dusty" white surfaces I mentioned earlier.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1860-S-SEATED-LIBERTY-50c-MS63-PCGS-/200680549580?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2eb97e2ccc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1873-50c-PCGS-MS64-Arrows-/180760079874?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a1623ee02
These are dipped white for comparison.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1871-Seated-half-dollar-PCGS-MS63-/390368526109?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5ae3c6ff1d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1855-O-Seated-half-Arrows-PCGS-MS61-/390352990941?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5ae2d9f2dd
The top two with "dusty white surfaces" just look to me like they've started to retone nicely.
Too...If a collector active in 1882 Pittsburg owned a lovely cabinet of coins...they would look far different in 1934 when his estate was sold than a collector who had the identical cabinet of coins but lived in New Mexico.
<< <i>GoldClause - All four of those coins look dipped to me. I just think coins that old should have a lot more crust/gunk/toning...just not look that "clean".
The top two with "dusty white surfaces" just look to me like they've started to retone nicely. >>
Don't worry MidLifeCrisis, when the general fashion is to prefer dirty/gunky coins, the doctors will turn the dipped coins back for you.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Yeah, all 4 of those are dipped-out. That dusty surface is just luster-less from over-dipping. >>
Incorrect.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yeah, all 4 of those are dipped-out. That dusty surface is just luster-less from over-dipping. >>
Incorrect. >>
Goodness, open your eyes. That MS64 was handled and it shows on the high points. The handling probably left the high points heavily toned, but not worn, so would still have made a low MS grade. But after removing the toning the coin got an MS64, which it does not deserve.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>It doesn’t happen very often, but as a detectorist, I’ve occasionally seen some pristine silver coins come out of the ground that were blast white and even had luster. A friend of mine once dug a 1908-D Barber dime in my presence that had to have been AU58, and it came right out of the soil looking like it had just been dropped. A little water to rinse off the loose dirt, and presto, there it was. No dipping done. I am sure there are other even more stable environmental conditions that would allow a silver coin to remain basically untoned and white for decades, if not centuries.
I’ve seen 200+ year old copper coins that were full red and presumably original. Yes, I know color on copper is just as contentious a topic, but I do feel certain there ARE original red pieces out there that have remained that way over centuries… so why not silver? Silver is, after all, a bit more environmentally “stable” than copper, right?
And I’ve seen pictures of a 2c piece dug out West that had original red luster on it- that’s extremely rare for a ground find, but it can happen. In certain lucky conditions, a coin can be in a long-term state of “suspension”. I wonder about dry caves, and such. Hey, if paper (well, papyrus) like the Dead Sea scrolls can survive a couple of thousand years, why not coins? Too bad they didn’t also find some red Mint State Judaean prutahs and Roman sestertii in the caves too, eh? >>
And as someone who is familiar with ancients, you know that there have been the occasional discovery of ancient hoards where the coins were so well protected that some of the denarii were still white.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>Enough with all the banter. Let's see some of these original white coins from the early 1900's and before. Morgans exluded. >>
These exhibit the "dusty" white surfaces I mentioned earlier.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1860-S-SEATED-LIBERTY-50c-MS63-PCGS-/200680549580?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2eb97e2ccc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1873-50c-PCGS-MS64-Arrows-/180760079874?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a1623ee02
These are dipped white for comparison.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1871-Seated-half-dollar-PCGS-MS63-/390368526109?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5ae3c6ff1d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1855-O-Seated-half-Arrows-PCGS-MS61-/390352990941?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item5ae2d9f2dd >>
The first 2 coins have a pleasing look to them, while they have both possibly had a rinse in water there is nothing offensive about their appearance.
The second pair of coins are what I would call overdipped/cleaned coins, they are ugly and should only be slabbed as genuine/cleaned.