<< <i>Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
I'll opt to pay for the 23 coins you imaged if he refuses... Just PM me and I'll send you a check! >>
Ok you now know I will cover shipping, Broadstruck will cover payment of the 23 coins. Send them back today. I will bet Broadstruck and I will each chip in an extra 10 bucks beer money to relax tonight. >>
It's such a piss arse miniscule amount to even get upset about and this is just wrong...
As I heard noting but good things about coinkid855 while working the Baltimore show with Ponyexpress8 and MFH.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
On what grounds is he threatening to sue you? Sounds like he has no case whatsoever. Also, as others stated, a short, 1 or 2 page contract would definitely help. And I would take a 25% retainer on work like this. I'm a freelance graphic designer, and I've been in this situation before. It sucks! I'm sorry man...
Thanks. How would a person let other members know about a blatant scam on Ebay or BST or that instead of the coins payed for all they received was a box of paper??
<< <i>The images are just fine. he should be paying for them. However if he is just not happy with them I would take down the images from any site they were on until he pays. Then i would ship the coins back. I understand the urge to hold the coins for payment, but that is the wrong thing to do. It will make things nasty. Sounds like the owner may be in a pinch if he needed everything so quickly.
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
Now that's a classy professional. Thanks Todd, i appreciate it. But I don't think somebody else should suffer because of this guy.
-Paul >>
Huh? This response puzzles me.
Certainly Todd would not suffer any more that I would. If anything at all, Todd would feel great about being able to help you out through a tough time. $50 is really nothing in the grand scheme of things especially if it will help a fellow professional to relieve some stress. Nothing is more stressful than being told that someone is going to take "legal" action against you and since you're probably not a lawyer, you really have no idea what "type" of action could be taken. Even if it's a BS statement or a BS action, it still requires you to prepare for the possibilities which in itself creates stress.
If you need some money, just shoot me your PayPal addy or mailing address. I would not suffer in the least. As a matter of fact, I would be quite pleased that I could be of assistance.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
I think what looks like coinkid trying to make fast money was also the owner wanting a fast turnaround. It sounds to me right now he is making about 10 to 15 bucks and hour. Not really killing it.
<< <i>The images are just fine. he should be paying for them. However if he is just not happy with them I would take down the images from any site they were on until he pays. Then i would ship the coins back. I understand the urge to hold the coins for payment, but that is the wrong thing to do. It will make things nasty. Sounds like the owner may be in a pinch if he needed everything so quickly.
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
Now that's a classy professional. Thanks Todd, i appreciate it. But I don't think somebody else should suffer because of this guy.
-Paul >>
As a photog I understand the stress this causes and it i just not worth it. You need to limit your suffering at this point.
Coinkid shared some of the images with me last night, there was no problem with them and in my opinion the coins would have sold very well with the images. He also turned them around in a day/same day. That is a lot of effort. >>
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
That's not how I work. I do go through the images quickly, but if a coin isn't coming out good, I adjust accordingly. Also, I edit EVERY single obverse and reverse shot in Photoshop, including brightness, contrast, and saturation, to make the coin look like what it does in HAND. No more, no less.
<< <i>I calmly explained that it was impossible to do with a macro lens, and yet they still pushed the issue: >>
I'm a little confused about this point and the example of the "bad" shot you've posted. Why not simply keep the coin on the tripod as you would for all the other shots, tilt the coin towards one of your stationary lights, and increase the depth of field on the camera to ensure the entire coin is in-focus? I do the tilt shots quite often when working with crusty toners and don't have any issues.
In terms of the predicament you're in - not worth the headache, in my opinion. Send the coins back, pay for shipping, and enjoy the fact that this experience, for only $50, gave you additional insight on how to structure your contract with the next client.
If you're really struggling to pay that shipping, I'll chip-in $10 in addition to the offers you've received in this thread previously.
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
That's quite the generalization, and I'm speaking with plenty of experience. I very rarely accept jobs for instant turn-around because sometimes I need the chance to put a coin down and come back to it. Yes, I start with a pile on the left and go through it as quickly as I can, but in any business the name of the game is speed. That said, if it's a blast white Morgan, I may well nail it in one shot, and yes, my hourly rate on the coin is high (not counting the time that post-processing may take, even just to crop and re-size a few different ways). That said, something tricky may also be in that stack for which I have to spend 10+ minutes, take a ton of shots, get up and come back a few minutes later just to get something decent. Hourly rate? Much less.
Judging by the one coin in the thread, it's a darn good shot, with bright color and obvious lustre. Every photographer has a style based on their setup and methodology, and it's almost impossible to get a drastically different look without changing photographers altogether. I can't imagine what else someone would want from an image, other than to just juice the one that already exists. To tilt and more directly light the coin will wash everything out, and without a lot of computer help, reduce, not increase the colors.
So count me in as another photographer who thinks that if the image shown is representative of the whole, then there is nothing wrong at all.
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
That's quite the generalization, and I'm speaking with plenty of experience. I very rarely accept jobs for instant turn-around because sometimes I need the chance to put a coin down and come back to it. Yes, I start with a pile on the left and go through it as quickly as I can, but in any business the name of the game is speed. That said, if it's a blast white Morgan, I may well nail it in one shot, and yes, my hourly rate on the coin is high (not counting the time that post-processing may take, even just to crop and re-size a few different ways). That said, something tricky may also be in that stack for which I have to spend 10+ minutes, take a ton of shots, get up and come back a few minutes later just to get something decent. Hourly rate? Much less.
Judging by the one coin in the thread, it's a darn good shot, with bright color and obvious lustre. Every photographer has a style based on their setup and methodology, and it's almost impossible to get a drastically different look without changing photographers altogether. I can't imagine what else someone would want from an image, other than to just juice the one that already exists. To tilt and more directly light the coin will wash everything out, and without a lot of computer help, reduce, not increase the colors.
So count me in as another photographer who thinks that if the image shown is representative of the whole, then there is nothing wrong at all.
Jeremy >>
Thanks Jeremy, I appreciate all the support from the photographers on the board!
I've also imaged hundreds of coins for board members and can state that the hourly rate is much less than might be assumed at first glance. Providing good images for clients takes time, patience, experience and good old fashioned work. Providing good service to these clients is also more than just getting the images correct and within the agreed upon time window. In my business model I have always told folks that if they do not like the image then they do not pay for the image, though they are allowed to keep the image and do what they want with the image. The first image posted in this thread looks acceptable to me even at a reduced size, but if the client does not like it and you cannot capture what they want (even if what they want is not reasonable) then ship the coins back and move on. I would suggest you pay out of pocket the shipping, give the client a good faith accounting of your expenses and allow them the option to pay or not. Is this fair to you? Perhaps not, but the associated aggravation appears to be greater than the monetary and time loss while pursuing the matter further is not much more than a waste of resources. Good luck.
<< <i>I've also imaged hundreds of coins for board members and can state that the hourly rate is much less than might be assumed at first glance. Providing good images for clients takes time, patience, experience and good old fashioned work. Providing good service to these clients is also more than just getting the images correct and within the agreed upon time window. In my business model I have always told folks that if they do not like the image then they do not pay for the image, though they are allowed to keep the image and do what they want with the image. The first image posted in this thread looks acceptable to me even at a reduced size, but if the client does not like it and you cannot capture what they want (even if what they want is not reasonable) then ship the coins back and move on. I would suggest you pay out of pocket the shipping, give the client a good faith accounting of your expenses and allow them the option to pay or not. Is this fair to you? Perhaps not, but the associated aggravation appears to be greater than the monetary and time loss while pursuing the matter further is not much more than a waste of resources. Good luck. >>
Tom, he LIKED that image!
"Note: My long letter was sent just BEFORE you sent that 58-D Lincoln photo...That is a great shot that will be perfect for what I want if you can do it on all? "
He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do.
One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday."
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
-Paul >>
It's not on you if he refused to pay for insurance...unless you previously promised to pay for return insured shipping out of your pocket. Chances are, nothing will happen, but he will get to worry about it for a week or more while the coins are on the "slow boat".
"He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do."
That being the case , shouldnt you just return the coins and be done with it ? Surely there was some agreement as to transportation of the coins prior ?
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
-Paul >>
It's not on you if he refused to pay for insurance...unless you previously promised to pay for return insured shipping out of your pocket. Chances are, nothing will happen, but he will get to worry about it for a week or more while the coins are on the "slow boat". >>
He said he would pay for shipping and insurance both ways.
<< <i>That's not how I work. I do go through the images quickly, but if a coin isn't coming out good, I adjust accordingly. Also, I edit EVERY single obverse and reverse shot in Photoshop, including brightness, contrast, and saturation, to make the coin look like what it does in HAND. No more, no less.
-Paul >>
This can be a tedious and difficult process to do it right. It's not like every image can be adjusted properly with a couple of mouse clicks. To be truly good (not that I am anywhere near that) takes talent and lots of time.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>"He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do."
That being the case , shouldnt you just return the coins and be done with it ? Surely there was some agreement as to transportation of the coins prior ? >>
Yes, there was. he was to pay both ways. And he seems to be fine with my images I think, he just wants me to reimage EVERY coin again with the tilted method.... With him promising me $500 if I do. Yeah right.
<< <i>"He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do."
That being the case , shouldnt you just return the coins and be done with it ? Surely there was some agreement as to transportation of the coins prior ? >>
Yes, there was. he was to pay both ways. And he seems to be fine with my images I think, he just wants me to reimage EVERY coin again with the tilted method.... With him promising me $500 if I do. Yeah right.
-Paul >>
Good luck with it Paul , i like the photo you put up and would love to get results like that.
If the owner of the coins follows through on his threat and files a lawsuit it would be in small claims court.
If the case were presented to a small claims judge, I suspect that the judge would listen to both sides of the story, shake his or her head and consider the person who filed the lawsuit to be a pain in the back side. However, small claims lawsuits are short and to the point. Whoever is able to present documents telling the story of what happened and to verbalize their side of the case in a short, to the point, easily understood manner usually wins. If you do not have your documents in order, if you are not prepared and if you are unable or unwilling to be up front, candid and truthful in what you say to the judge the chances are that you will lose.
A cheap $5 price per picture with a faster turnaround does not sound like a deal that includes extra options which of course, slows down the fast turn around.
In my view, if the customer is not satisfied, he should not get or keep any pictures but should not have to pay for any of the pictures either. The customer has a right to be satisfied. On the other hand, the customer should be responsible for shipping/insurance costs both ways. The customer took on the risk of paying for the shipping/insurance unless the pictures were taken at the customer's location.
I would have sent the coins back COD for the cost of the shipping/insurance but advise the customer first that an advance reimbursement for such shipping/insurance would end up saving the customer some money as COD shipping is more expensive.
I would find it hard to believe that the customer would expect you to pay for any shipping/insurance when he is not going to pay you for your services. If you make it clear that you are canceling your invoice but that he has to pay for the s&i, I would be surprised if he were to disagree. I know many posters here and would be hard pressed to think of anyone that would think otherwise.
This sucks. Just forget about this guy and continue taking awesome pictures of coins! I was SOOOOO happy with all the pics you took for me and I cant wait untill FUN so you can do it again!
Thanks. How would a person let other members know about a blatant scam on Ebay or BST or that instead of the coins payed for all they received was a box of paper?? >>
do that elsewhere? Don't know what NGC forums allow, but pretty sure the OFR might work for it
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
<< <i>I would not return his coins unless he pays you for your services. >>
>>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This sucks. Just forget about this guy and continue taking awesome pictures of coins! I was SOOOOO happy with all the pics you took for me and I cant wait untill FUN so you can do it again!
B >>
It certainly does! Thanks B! We're gonna make FUN live up to it's name!
In a court of law he will lose. The fact that you did the work and that he agreed to hire you means that he is required to pay for your work. If he doesnt like your photography then he shouldnt have hired you.
Dont at all worry about a law suite.
In terms of shipping the items back- you are responsible to make sure the items get back to him safely.
There are only a few instances where you can legally keep people's stuff (mechanics lien, etc) Individuals working with other people's coins without a contract sooner or later results in unhappy situations like this. Too many coin people are unreasonable nuts.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I get the impression that the person who submitted the coins for you to image thought you would be able to glorify all his coins with rainbows and halos, along with 3-D perspectives and CGI animation that could make Lincoln speak...but alas, you could not.
Chalk this one up in the "experience" column and learn from this adventure into the depths of depraved coin collectors.
<< <i>Here is my advice. Don't do anything, remain silent, he has to come to you to get his coins back, the more he pisses you off the longer he waits...........this should turn the tables rather quickly. I hope your idiot client pm's me, I would love to give him an earful. >>
Haha, good idea. I love how he's not responding with his side of the story. Oh wait, maybe because he knows he's wrong?
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
I'll opt to pay for the 23 coins you imaged if he refuses... Just PM me and I'll send you a check! >>
Ok you now know I will cover shipping, Broadstruck will cover payment of the 23 coins. Send them back today. I will bet Broadstruck and I will each chip in an extra 10 bucks beer money to relax tonight. >>
It's such a piss arse miniscule amount to even get upset about and this is just wrong...
As I heard noting but good things about coinkid855 while working the Baltimore show with Ponyexpress8 and MFH.
Also, as others stated, a short, 1 or 2 page contract would definitely help. And I would take a 25% retainer on work like this.
I'm a freelance graphic designer, and I've been in this situation before. It sucks! I'm sorry man...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. >>
Where in the rules does it say that?? I can't seem to find it. >>
Look Here. >>
Thanks. How would a person let other members know about a blatant scam on Ebay or BST or that instead of the coins payed for all they received was a box of paper??
<< <i>
<< <i>The images are just fine. he should be paying for them. However if he is just not happy with them I would take down the images from any site they were on until he pays. Then i would ship the coins back. I understand the urge to hold the coins for payment, but that is the wrong thing to do. It will make things nasty. Sounds like the owner may be in a pinch if he needed everything so quickly.
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
Now that's a classy professional. Thanks Todd, i appreciate it. But I don't think somebody else should suffer because of this guy.
-Paul >>
Huh? This response puzzles me.
Certainly Todd would not suffer any more that I would. If anything at all, Todd would feel great about being able to help you out through a tough time. $50 is really nothing in the grand scheme of things especially if it will help a fellow professional to relieve some stress. Nothing is more stressful than being told that someone is going to take "legal" action against you and since you're probably not a lawyer, you really have no idea what "type" of action could be taken. Even if it's a BS statement or a BS action, it still requires you to prepare for the possibilities which in itself creates stress.
If you need some money, just shoot me your PayPal addy or mailing address. I would not suffer in the least. As a matter of fact, I would be quite pleased that I could be of assistance.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
I think what looks like coinkid trying to make fast money was also the owner wanting a fast turnaround. It sounds to me right now he is making about 10 to 15 bucks and hour. Not really killing it.
It would be my honor to cover the beer. Make it microbrew in the large bottles. Tell me where to send the money.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The images are just fine. he should be paying for them. However if he is just not happy with them I would take down the images from any site they were on until he pays. Then i would ship the coins back. I understand the urge to hold the coins for payment, but that is the wrong thing to do. It will make things nasty. Sounds like the owner may be in a pinch if he needed everything so quickly.
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
Now that's a classy professional. Thanks Todd, i appreciate it. But I don't think somebody else should suffer because of this guy.
-Paul >>
As a photog I understand the stress this causes and it i just not worth it. You need to limit your suffering at this point.
Coinkid shared some of the images with me last night, there was no problem with them and in my opinion the coins would have sold very well with the images. He also turned them around in a day/same day. That is a lot of effort. >>
Thanks Todd, it definitley was...
-Paul
<< <i>Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
I'll opt to pay for the 23 coins you imaged if he refuses... Just PM me and I'll send you a check! >>
Wow, this is a classy board. I don't want to make you lose money over my business deal though!
-Paul
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
That's not how I work. I do go through the images quickly, but if a coin isn't coming out good, I adjust accordingly. Also, I edit EVERY single obverse and reverse shot in Photoshop, including brightness, contrast, and saturation, to make the coin look like what it does in HAND. No more, no less.
-Paul
1997-present
<< <i>I calmly explained that it was impossible to do with a macro lens, and yet they still pushed the issue: >>
I'm a little confused about this point and the example of the "bad" shot you've posted. Why not simply keep the coin on the tripod as you would for all the other shots, tilt the coin towards one of your stationary lights, and increase the depth of field on the camera to ensure the entire coin is in-focus? I do the tilt shots quite often when working with crusty toners and don't have any issues.
In terms of the predicament you're in - not worth the headache, in my opinion. Send the coins back, pay for shipping, and enjoy the fact that this experience, for only $50, gave you additional insight on how to structure your contract with the next client.
If you're really struggling to pay that shipping, I'll chip-in $10 in addition to the offers you've received in this thread previously.
Cheers,
~Roman
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
That's quite the generalization, and I'm speaking with plenty of experience. I very rarely accept jobs for instant turn-around because sometimes I need the chance to put a coin down and come back to it. Yes, I start with a pile on the left and go through it as quickly as I can, but in any business the name of the game is speed. That said, if it's a blast white Morgan, I may well nail it in one shot, and yes, my hourly rate on the coin is high (not counting the time that post-processing may take, even just to crop and re-size a few different ways). That said, something tricky may also be in that stack for which I have to spend 10+ minutes, take a ton of shots, get up and come back a few minutes later just to get something decent. Hourly rate? Much less.
Judging by the one coin in the thread, it's a darn good shot, with bright color and obvious lustre. Every photographer has a style based on their setup and methodology, and it's almost impossible to get a drastically different look without changing photographers altogether. I can't imagine what else someone would want from an image, other than to just juice the one that already exists. To tilt and more directly light the coin will wash everything out, and without a lot of computer help, reduce, not increase the colors.
So count me in as another photographer who thinks that if the image shown is representative of the whole, then there is nothing wrong at all.
Jeremy
<< <i>
<< <i>OK. Let's look at this from a different place. $5 for a digital photo taken is $5 profit. Heck, I may do 150 images of a coin then pick my best. It's not like buying ektachtome and processing. How much do you NEED to make per hour? Lots of people out there would be perfectly happy making $25 under the table and shoot five digital pictures during that hour. The "bad" photo you posted the off angle one....yes that's really bad. Exactly HOW good were your overall photos anyway? That's five bucks and for that I'd work that coin under lighting so it WOULD have pop and fizz and show it to its best ability. Seem you want to go in with a stack of coins on the left, the camera on a stand, and a pile of 'done' coins on the other side and blow through them almost like an upright scanner be dammed how well they turn out. Etcetc. $5 please. NEXT. Maybe I'm harsh and maybe this fellow expected results you were unwilling to devote the time and energy to produce. Yes I worked as a professional photographer for ten years and you need to look upon your images as both art and craft. Frankly if I were you, I world try to start a fresh dialogue with this person, get a fresh battery for your camera and do it over again BUT take your time and make each image the best you can. Send a few at random for your customers approval. You know I've seen a lot of good people get into big messes because they chose to air dirty laundry in a public forum ..... >>
That's quite the generalization, and I'm speaking with plenty of experience. I very rarely accept jobs for instant turn-around because sometimes I need the chance to put a coin down and come back to it. Yes, I start with a pile on the left and go through it as quickly as I can, but in any business the name of the game is speed. That said, if it's a blast white Morgan, I may well nail it in one shot, and yes, my hourly rate on the coin is high (not counting the time that post-processing may take, even just to crop and re-size a few different ways). That said, something tricky may also be in that stack for which I have to spend 10+ minutes, take a ton of shots, get up and come back a few minutes later just to get something decent. Hourly rate? Much less.
Judging by the one coin in the thread, it's a darn good shot, with bright color and obvious lustre. Every photographer has a style based on their setup and methodology, and it's almost impossible to get a drastically different look without changing photographers altogether. I can't imagine what else someone would want from an image, other than to just juice the one that already exists. To tilt and more directly light the coin will wash everything out, and without a lot of computer help, reduce, not increase the colors.
So count me in as another photographer who thinks that if the image shown is representative of the whole, then there is nothing wrong at all.
Jeremy >>
Thanks Jeremy, I appreciate all the support from the photographers on the board!
-Paul
I'd try to negotiate the return price. Otherwise take it as a loss and move on.
<< <i>You can never please everybody.
I'd try to negotiate the return price. Otherwise take it as a loss and move on. >>
That's the thing, he said he liked a good deal of the images, but when it came time to pay, he doesn't want to.
-Paul
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I've also imaged hundreds of coins for board members and can state that the hourly rate is much less than might be assumed at first glance. Providing good images for clients takes time, patience, experience and good old fashioned work. Providing good service to these clients is also more than just getting the images correct and within the agreed upon time window. In my business model I have always told folks that if they do not like the image then they do not pay for the image, though they are allowed to keep the image and do what they want with the image. The first image posted in this thread looks acceptable to me even at a reduced size, but if the client does not like it and you cannot capture what they want (even if what they want is not reasonable) then ship the coins back and move on. I would suggest you pay out of pocket the shipping, give the client a good faith accounting of your expenses and allow them the option to pay or not. Is this fair to you? Perhaps not, but the associated aggravation appears to be greater than the monetary and time loss while pursuing the matter further is not much more than a waste of resources. Good luck. >>
Tom, he LIKED that image!
"Note: My long letter was sent just BEFORE you sent that 58-D Lincoln photo...That is a great shot that will be perfect for what I want if you can do it on all? "
He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do.
-Paul
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday."
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
-Paul
<< <i>I would just send his coins back and move on. >>
Cost of doing buisness Paul.
You might be surprised how much guff a small business owner must abide.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
<< <i>
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
-Paul >>
It's not on you if he refused to pay for insurance...unless you previously promised to pay for return insured shipping out of your pocket. Chances are, nothing will happen, but he will get to worry about it for a week or more while the coins are on the "slow boat".
That being the case , shouldnt you just return the coins and be done with it ? Surely there was some agreement as to transportation of the coins prior ?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
-Paul >>
It's not on you if he refused to pay for insurance...unless you previously promised to pay for return insured shipping out of your pocket. Chances are, nothing will happen, but he will get to worry about it for a week or more while the coins are on the "slow boat". >>
He said he would pay for shipping and insurance both ways.
-Paul
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>That's not how I work. I do go through the images quickly, but if a coin isn't coming out good, I adjust accordingly. Also, I edit EVERY single obverse and reverse shot in Photoshop, including brightness, contrast, and saturation, to make the coin look like what it does in HAND. No more, no less.
-Paul >>
This can be a tedious and difficult process to do it right. It's not like every image can be adjusted properly with a couple of mouse clicks. To be truly good (not that I am anywhere near that) takes talent and lots of time.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>"He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do."
That being the case , shouldnt you just return the coins and be done with it ? Surely there was some agreement as to transportation of the coins prior ? >>
Yes, there was. he was to pay both ways. And he seems to be fine with my images I think, he just wants me to reimage EVERY coin again with the tilted method.... With him promising me $500 if I do. Yeah right.
-Paul
<< <i>
<< <i>"He just doesn't want to pay what he owes because I can't do the images the way he wants, because it's just not the type of imaging I do."
That being the case , shouldnt you just return the coins and be done with it ? Surely there was some agreement as to transportation of the coins prior ? >>
Yes, there was. he was to pay both ways. And he seems to be fine with my images I think, he just wants me to reimage EVERY coin again with the tilted method.... With him promising me $500 if I do. Yeah right.
-Paul >>
Good luck with it Paul , i like the photo you put up and would love to get results like that.
If the case were presented to a small claims judge, I suspect that the judge would listen to both sides of the story, shake his or her head and consider the person who filed the lawsuit to be a pain in the back side. However, small claims lawsuits are short and to the point. Whoever is able to present documents telling the story of what happened and to verbalize their side of the case in a short, to the point, easily understood manner usually wins. If you do not have your documents in order, if you are not prepared and if you are unable or unwilling to be up front, candid and truthful in what you say to the judge the chances are that you will lose.
In my view, if the customer is not satisfied, he should not get or keep any pictures but should not have to pay for any of the pictures either. The customer has a right to be satisfied. On the other hand, the customer should be responsible for shipping/insurance costs both ways. The customer took on the risk of paying for the shipping/insurance unless the pictures were taken at the customer's location.
I would have sent the coins back COD for the cost of the shipping/insurance but advise the customer first that an advance reimbursement for such shipping/insurance would end up saving the customer some money as COD shipping is more expensive.
I would find it hard to believe that the customer would expect you to pay for any shipping/insurance when he is not going to pay you for your services. If you make it clear that you are canceling your invoice but that he has to pay for the s&i, I would be surprised if he were to disagree. I know many posters here and would be hard pressed to think of anyone that would think otherwise.
Box of 20
This sucks. Just forget about this guy and continue taking awesome pictures of coins! I was SOOOOO happy with all the pics you took for me and I cant wait untill FUN so you can do it again!
B
<< <i>
<< <i>Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
I'll opt to pay for the 23 coins you imaged if he refuses... Just PM me and I'll send you a check! >>
Wow, this is a classy board. I don't want to make you lose money over my business deal though! >>
I'd right about now gladly pay the whole $165 just to know who it is!
I always like to think that Forum Members are on a higher plateau as far as ethics are concerned...
It would really come as a shock if it was a regular member that we all associated with daily on the boards!
Whoever you might... get you're panties out of the bunch, step up and pay the kid, who's already working on a lower then 1/2 the average imaging rate!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. >>
Where in the rules does it say that?? I can't seem to find it. >>
Look Here. >>
Thanks. How would a person let other members know about a blatant scam on Ebay or BST or that instead of the coins payed for all they received was a box of paper?? >>
do that elsewhere? Don't know what NGC forums allow, but pretty sure the OFR might work for it
<< <i>
<< <i>One way to avoid the $50 return shipping charge is to invite him to pay for the insurance, if he wants it. In fact, you can use that to leverage the whole deal.
"I will send the coins back to you at my expense, via the slowest possible means, uninsured with signature confirmation, unless you send $xx for shipping by Monday." >>
If the coins get stolen in shipment, that's on me though. I don't want to tarnish my reputation over this guy.
-Paul >>
Is there a way to ship them back postage due?
<< <i>Its against the rules that Don Willis posted a few weeks ago to air out disputes on these forums. I don't see his locked post anymore though. >>
No, it's against the rules to out someone. I'm merely asking for advice on an annoying situation.
-Paul
<< <i>
<< <i>I would not return his coins unless he pays you for your services. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Paul,
This sucks. Just forget about this guy and continue taking awesome pictures of coins! I was SOOOOO happy with all the pics you took for me and I cant wait untill FUN so you can do it again!
B >>
It certainly does! Thanks B! We're gonna make FUN live up to it's name!
-Paul
If he doesnt like your photography then he shouldnt have hired you.
Dont at all worry about a law suite.
In terms of shipping the items back- you are responsible to make sure the items get back to him safely.
Hope there is a good outcome
Individuals working with other people's coins without a contract sooner or later results
in unhappy situations like this. Too many coin people are unreasonable nuts.
<< <i>
<< <i>The good thing about being sued is you get your day in court. >>
Sadly, in most cases, it is many days.
And, even if you win- you loose. >>
Unfortunately, it's just that, the end may have nothing to do with "justice."
https://acoinshop.com/ —-> https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Chalk this one up in the "experience" column and learn from this adventure into the depths of depraved coin collectors.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Here is my advice. Don't do anything, remain silent, he has to come to you to get his coins back, the more he pisses you off the longer he waits...........this should turn the tables rather quickly. I hope your idiot client pm's me, I would love to give him an earful. >>
Haha, good idea. I love how he's not responding with his side of the story. Oh wait, maybe because he knows he's wrong?
-Paul