Harold's Estate, New Wrinkle?

GAT · August 21, 2002 10:36PM

Read the descripition of this auction. The prose sure sounds like our old friend Deb.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1373833476

wayneherndon · August 21, 2002 10:42PM

Link

Yes, earlycoins is the Deb's eBay name.

WH

dorkkarl · August 21, 2002 11:32PM

uhhh, sorry to be just a little sarcastic, but what's the new wrinkle on a subject that has achieved way too much notoriety on this forum already???

w/ the free advertising provided by the continued gibberish on this forum about accusuations that no body can really put into words about a woman that no body can really identifiy and her association w/ a co. that no body really can point out any wrongdoing w/ coins that no body has actually proven are bogus and re-processed, me thinks that enough extra business has been sent her way already, hasn't it? russ pointed that out a while back, & he was right.

K S

DMWJR · August 21, 2002 11:40PM

Dork, in case you missed the tail end of the last thread, Deb is about 40 years old and is married to a guy named Jim Greenman. She uses a PO Box in the next town over from her home town, and yes, she is misrepresenting herself AND some of the coins. Obviously no one can verify all of the misrepresentations regarding coins, but there was enough proof to satisfy most reasonable people.

DMWJR · August 22, 2002 12:00AM

Also, on the other side of the proverbial coin, here is who JADECOIN gets to do their coin doctoring: Coin Doctor

If you read the Guestbook section, you will see where James Garcia left comments about using the service on an 1800 Bust Dollar. And Garcia also admits to artificially toning the coin himself.

My level of respect also went down for a couple of the other people that I know who signed the Guestbook as well.

Maybe I have some fire about this topic because I have recently been burned in a similar type of deal.

vam44 · August 22, 2002 12:09AM

<< Dork, in case you missed the tail end of the last thread, Deb is about 40 years old and is married to a guy named Jim Greenman. She uses a PO Box in the next town over from her home town, and yes, she is misrepresenting herself AND some of the coins. Obviously no one can verify all of the misrepresentations regarding coins, but there was enough proof to satisfy most reasonable people. >>

Depends how you define REASONABLE.
I`m amazed as to what people will pay for these HOARDS of unsearched rare coins.I have a bookmark to an honest to goodness ebay seller who sells coins that are pretty much "unsearched"(at least in the past few decades).I bought things off them before they discovered ebay,got lots of good deals.Now, everything goes for STUPID money.I cannot understand how REASONABLE people can pay money for something that they can barely see from a small scan.I can see taking a chance for a few bucks over scrap or generic prices for 1921 morgans,`40`s walkers, and other common stuff.But,5 or 10 times generic or scrap?If I was unethical, I would try to cash in on the greed of these REASONABLE buyers.I am not.

vam44 · August 22, 2002 12:30AM

If I was unethical, I would try to cash in on the greed of these REASONABLE buyers.I am not.

>>

After rereading my first post, I got to thinking about it.It sounds like I`m calling my bookmarked ebay seller unethical.I`m not.The "story" they use is not a story.They state exactly where it came from with no embellishment or sales pitch.Their starting prices are pretty much face value for coins.They are the exception.

Most of the ebay sellers who sell these "unsearched lots" of coins see the GREED in these buyers and make up stories to sell their "unsearched" handful of coins.

Are there that many REASONABLE buyers out there on ebay? I guess so.

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 1:05AM

<< in case you missed the tail end of the last thread, Deb is about 40 years old and is married to a guy named Jim Greenman >>

i gotta be real rude for just a second, because THIS IS AN ABSURD ASSUMPTION AND I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU POSTED IT. i did a search for "doug wright", and according to MY research there is a doug wright living 2.3 miles from your "deb's" house - ONE OF SEVEN DOUG WRIGHTS IN THE GRAND RAPIDS AREA. does that mean you are harold???

i did not miss your post, but was so stunned that you posted that that, i couldn't log on for the rest of the day, it made me so mad. it p!sses me off just thinking about it right now. you implicated someone who you do not know at all, along with publicly showing their address, AND YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that it is the same "deb"!!! GEE, did it occur to you for just a split second, that hmmmmm, there just could possibly, maybe, MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE DEB GREENMAN LIVING IN A METROPOLITAN AREA OF 500,000 PEOPLE??? and that IF YOU ARE WRONG, YOU HAVE JUST MADE A FOOL OF AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER???

i think you are trying to be sincere, but your post CROSSED THE LINE between fact and gibberish by publicly implicating someone in an unproven scandal.

doug, in my book your action was completly lacking validity and class. i seriously thought you were better than that.

get FACTS, then you got something to write about.

signed,
"one freakin p!ssed forum member who can't believe nobody else on this forum brought this up"

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 1:09AM

ONE MORE THING, allan stockton provides an extremelly valuable service by repairing problem coins. let me hit you with a stunning concept. gee, some coins have gotten holed over the years, and a lot of them are RARE. does it occur to you that for someone like me who can't afford better, i DON'T MIND paying half price for a rare coin, even if it has been repaired? or cleaned? or straightened? my favorite coin is my 1797 half dollar. it is a total and complete dog, been bent and straightened and with a repaired hole, despite fine detail, would have net-graded POOR-1. STOCKTON repaired it for me, and i love it. i still call it AG, but you know what? I CAN'T AFFORD 10,000 FOR A BETTER ONE.

K S

Russ · August 22, 2002 1:11AM

Hey! It's the "smelly" proof sets. Marty will be so disappointed when he gets back from vacation.

Russ, NCNE

DMWJR · August 22, 2002 1:13AM

VAM44, I totally agree with you. Maybe I didn't say it clear enough, but I was only thinking about the "reasonable" people on this forum who look at what as happening and don't ignore or excuse it. I just find it hard to ignore the acts committed by JADECOIN and also DEB GREENMAN, even if the two are not colluding. If I only knew of one, and not the other, I would still feel the same way.

Like you, I buy some material from a dealer that is "unsearched." He tells me where he gets the material. I keep finding what I am looking for, so I consider the lots "unsearched" for my purposes.

I guess after being burned on a doctored coin recently, I just have my pitchfork out for sellers I think engage in unethical practices. Also, I'm not necessarily accusing them of a crime because "unethical" doesn't automatically mean "illegal."

kingmatt · August 22, 2002 1:44AM

"Thank you, Allen, for performing such an outstanding job on the detail restoration of the 1800 bust dollar. Ive touched up the toning just a bit to suit the look of the rest of my coins. You can look at the finished product here: http://www.cjade.com/stock/l180008.jpg. To the collectors out there: repaired coins are undervalued and therefore a bargain, as long as you know what you are buying. Upon selling this coin, I would disclose the fact that it has been repaired, although I do not believe that even the professionals would detect it on this one. Simply a stunning repair job on a coin originally net-graded by ANACS as AG-3!
James Garcia <jadecoin@excite.com>
St. Louis, MO USA - Monday, April 08, 2002 at 10:57:02 (EDT)"Text

The above was taken from the guest log on the COIN DOCTOR website. Does anyone recall if the coins sold by Deb were labelled as such?

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 1:47AM

deb did in fact mention the 1795 dollar had repaired problems in the ebay listing. and jade-coin was incredibly honest in publicly posting the fact that the silver dollar they had was repaired.

i just can't believe it goes on, and on, and on like this.

the bottom line in simplest terms can be summed up in 2 questions.

1. what is "deb" being accused of and why is it wrong???

2. what is "jadecoin" being accused of, and why is it wrong???

having read all the drivel about these 2 subjects, i can no longer figure out exactly what is being alleged anymore, becuase it seems like every time something gets alleged, 1 of 2 things happens, either the allegation proves to be FALSE, or the allegation is REFUTED.

doug claims to have found the "real" deb greenman, but that instantly proves that "deb" and "jade-coin" are no longer one and the same (unless goose3 is a liar, having claimed he met BOTH jade-coin dudes). and if there really is a "deb greenman" living in grand-rapids, then the jade-coin story rings 100% true!!!

for chrissake, will someone please state exactly what in the world is discussion is all about???

i'm stunned that anyone would think the case is closed on this one.

K S

Russ · August 22, 2002 2:05AM

<< i can no longer figure out exactly what is being alleged anymore >>

The only thing I've ever said is that the "Harold's Estate" BS is just that: BS. It is the single biggest crock ever to hit eBay. There never was any old guy named Harold, there is no old widow named Deb (might be somebody by that name, but not an old widow). The whole schtick is utter complete bogus garbage, fabricated to nail suckers.

It is inconceivable to me that anybody could possibly find any reason to believe anything coming from this seller, and those involved in this scam.

Russ, NCNE

DMWJR · August 22, 2002 2:10AM

Dorkkarl: look down at your shoelaces and count to a hundred, or sign up for an anger management class.

The information I posted on this site is public. If Jim and Deb Greenman don't want their home information public, they should request that the information be unlisted.

Do you really think there are two "Deb Greenman"'s in the area? Caledonia is a "village" that showed a population of 885 people in 1990. Byron is not even a village, and is smaller than that. The probability that it she is one and the same is so strong that it can be considered fact. Instead of searching for me, why don't you try to find two Deb Greenman's. You won't, which is the point I'm making here.

No, I don't live in Grand Rapids, nor do I try to hide from people I do business with on the internet. People I do business with know who I am, where I am, and that I don't make up baloney stories about coins for the purpose of obtaining money.

I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, and taking an unreasonable position.

Regarding your 1797 dollar, I am glad that you are happy with your coin. Would you be happy if someone sold it to you as a "fine" after it was doctored? The grade inflation that these people are suggesting by doctoring a coin begs the question of reasonableness.

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 4:07AM

FINALLY, russ is the first one to say something that makes sense. an actual allegation! he DOES NOT BELIEVE the stories, which is a perfectly reasonable statement to make. russ, i do not disagree w/ you, but i think there is probalby some basis of fact somewhere in there. the kind of quality deb listed over the past year don't just fall off trees. i bet there is some kind of old estate involved in this somewhere.

<< .. . . fabricated to nail suckers. >>

here i totally disagree. because i'm sure you've supported that claim by asking at least a teeny weeny sampling of the 800 positive feedback people if they've been suckered... russ, statements like yours are the real problem, - as i've pointed out before , your tone automatically implies distrust and deceit, just because YOU think ther's a problem, but why do i believe you haven't made one single attempt to find out if anyone has actually been suckered in this "scam"

<< those involved in this scam. >>

there's that "scam" word again. because again, like i said, you have already proven that EVEN ONE of the 800 positive feedbacks was posted as a result of a "scam", right?

but i'll just bet that 1 or more of the winners in deb's last round is from this forum and will leave a negative feedback so they can then say "A HA!!! a negative feedback which PROVES it's a scam check out the pathetic feedback on a couple of "winners" of the cheaper lots. guaranteed they are bogus accounts with the only intent in bidding to leave neg. f.b.

the point is russ, that even though you imply negativity on deb, you have never stated exactly what they did that was WRONG, or that you can prove it (or even support it).

now, let's switch over to doug-ie boy

<< The information I posted on this site is public. If Jim and Deb Greenman don't want their home information public, they should request that the information be unlisted. >>

so doug, you being the honest, upstanding and thorough citizen that you are, you have politely made Jim and Deb Greenman aware of your allegations then, right? you informed them of your public accusation on this forum (cause gee, if they just happen to be no part of this whole baloney story, they just might not be on this forum), and have invited them to respond. you even sent them a link to the thread, correct? (gee, why do i have the funny feeling your answer is HUH???), which i am sure you did with jade coin also because you are a fair-minded and just person who would want to hear both sides of a story. and i am just absolutely sure that you took necessary steps to ensure that there could be NO mistake, here, because like i said before, if there could be even the teeniest hint of an error on your part (unless your PERFECT, of course), your reputation would be thoroughtly TRASHED for making false accusations against an innocent party. but most important of all, i just know you did not base your allegation 100% on information found on the internet, because, god forgive, everything posted on the internet is 100% accurate (or is that 10%?), right???

<< Do you really think there are two "Deb Greenman"'s in the area? >>

what is said is that you have NOT PROVEN that the deb greenman you publicly accosted on this forum lists coins on ebay. if fact, you actually have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER that her name is even "Deb Greenman"! nobody does! would you be stupid enough to use your real name on a public website like ebay if you were trying to hide something??? (see russ'es note above that everything in the story is FALSE, and you just might start to get a clue).

<< Caledonia is a "village" that showed a population of 885 people in 1990. Byron is not even a village, and is smaller than that. The probability that it she is one and the same is so strong that it can be considered fact. >>

WOW, and the only place that any deb greenman could live would be at that spot on your map. because there is no way the real "deb greenman" could live 5 miles away in another city, such as, oh i don't know, GRAND RAPIDS??? especially considering that is where jade-coin lives, right? and of course, it is ALL assuming the name really is "deb greenman"

<< I don't make up baloney stories about coins for the purpose of obtaining money. >>

which is proof that jade-coin is, because they are making stunning profits, just raking in the cash hand over fist on these coins. HAVE YOU ACTUALLY LOOKED AT A SINGLE LISTING??? the crap is selling for under greysheet!!! that's one heck of a dealer!!! they go out and buy this stuff on the open market for solid money, AS PROVEN BY GOOSE3 HIMSELF, and then dump the stuff on ebay for a loss!!!

<< Regarding your 1797 dollar, I am glad that you are happy with your coin. Would you be happy if someone sold it to you as a "fine" after it was doctored? >>

that wouldn't happen becuase i actually study coins i buy regardless of plastic, and am pretty damm good at picking up on repairs and such. but regardless of the "grade" ... .

<< The grade inflation that these people are suggesting >>

PLEASE quote their suggestion of inflating a coins grade... at least give us a link!

<< .... by doctoring a coin begs the question of reasonableness. >>

it's a 1797 HALF DOLLAR. any idea how rare those are??? you don't buy the coin based on the grade, you buy it based on the fact that IT IS RARE, ORIGINAL OR NOT. we're not talking about holed morgan dollars being repaired and sold off as BU's to rip off the public. BUST DOLLARS ARE RARE, and i couldn't give a rat's a$$ if pcgs thinks mine are original/repaired or not.

*****

one thing you are "Wright" about is that i was angry earlier, didn't control myself or my language, and i openly apologize to all forum members who read that tirade. if requested, i'll go back and edit out the offensive words.

but you better believe i will keep arguing this thread, beucase there are a lot of "deb" and "jade-coin" lies that have been posted lately, and none of them have come from "deb" or "jade-coin". and that's not even the biggest issue. there are an awful lot of lies and misleading information posted on the forum about everything!

there's a perfect analogy with buying slabs: you buy the grade because you know it's right just because pcgs said so.same as you buy these allegations just because someone on the forum said so

i'm sick of it, i'm outta here, so take your shots. i'm not sure anyone really even cares anymore. but if your gonna make accusations, don't you think you ought to be able to prove them? or are we no longer living in the good ol' USA.

K S

halfnut · August 22, 2002 4:18AM

Hey just a thought here maybe dorkkarl is DEB hummmm see how long that last post of dribble was hummmm

Edided to add smiles

Dan

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 4:43AM

uh, that would be DRIVEL. not dribble.

K S

Russ · August 22, 2002 4:56AM

<< you have never stated exactly what they did that was WRONG >>

Maybe I used too many words. Let me simplify it. What he/she/it did that was wrong, was LIED. Call the bogus story by any name you choose, fantasy, hype, advertising...it is still a lie, and I will not abide dishonesty in any form. I don't care if the product is good, bad or indifferent.

Russ, NCNE

dakra · August 22, 2002 5:27AM

Hmmm...
I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out but Deb acts as if she has no clue about coins...right? Why then would she be purchasing coins, here are a few feedbacks she gave starting in April 00

-Great eBay seller, fast shipment, great coin, thanks!! A++
-Thanks for fast shipment of nice coin. Recommended
-Wow! Super nice deal. Fast shipment, properly graded, one of the best on eBay!
(How would she know it was properly graded?)
-Another great deal from lonestarcoin! Highly recommended to all
-Thanks. Dime was AG in detail, but ran over by stagecoach. Need better descript.
(I thought she had no clue about grading???)

Well, Just my 2 cents.
-Dave

Russ · August 22, 2002 5:37AM

Dave,

The argument for that will be that, back then, it was "Harold" buying the coins.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 6:03AM

<< What he/she/it did that was wrong, was LIED >>

bingo! a statement sweet and to the point, without all the other garbage thrown in.

<< I will not abide dishonesty in any form >>

oh yes you will! unless you think you're gonna stop every crook and politician in this world!

*****

dakra, you're doing exactly what got the thread confused to the tune of 200 posts. make your accusation. then say why you think something. not things that can't be proven. we have no idea who in the "deb" household posted those messages. "deb", "cliff", "harold", "the nephew", "frank", "miss haversham", maybe the butler did it???

the wrong way to do it is to list a bunch of observations, and we don't know what point your trying to make.

i'm making my accusation right now:

the "Deb" story is based on an actual estate that really was passed down to heirs, who did not know how to handle it. they botched up the first attempts to sell it, probably got ripped. they hired jade-coin to help out. i hereby accuse "them" of using false names in the ebay listings, and probably distorting certain events to either jack up the appeal of the coins or to protect identity/privacy. this whole accusation is based on the fact that i personally wouldn't use my real name or addr. either if i had anything valuable to sell.

since it looks like every single bidder has been extremely happy w/ deb's coins, i ca'nt judge what is right or wrong in all this. that's for people a lot smarter than me (like russ).

K S

shirohniichan · August 22, 2002 7:00AM

Whether Deb is a real person or not doesn't matter all that much. What matters is whether the coins are being sold ethically.

deb did in fact mention the 1795 dollar had repaired problems in the ebay listing. and jade-coin was incredibly honest in publicly posting the fact that the silver dollar they had was repaired.

I'm glad to hear she described that the coins were tooled and artificially toned and that they weren't part of Harold's estate. What's that? She DIDN'T mention those salient facts? Well shut my mouth! Let's see what she did write.

For the first time, I do believe, I have gotten well organized for this round of listings. I am actually going to list these coins in order of face value, starting from the lowest through the highest. That may make it easier for you, if you are looking for something very specific. There are alot of early coins in here, and these are from the same box as many of the coins from the last round. There are only about four large boxes left after this, plus several albums and a few odds and ends. Clifford said he might sell off a couple of the coins he had been keeping, but I'm not sure if he really wants to do that. I did have several requests to list some more gold coins. I may do that at a future date if the price of gold keeps rising, but for now, I am going to list just one more. Next month, I may list off a couple of bags of coins that are just bulk amounts of common (I think) silver coins. I think it was a mistake before when I took similar sacks to a local dealer, because those were full of much older coins, yet I later found out I had received what is called "melt value" for them, which is much lower than collector value.

(4) EXTREMELY OLD COINS

Well, I thought I would do something different for this lot of coins. This will be an interesting experiment on my part, because I still have many more coins like these! Included in this listing are four coins, and they are from the same sort of time period in early American history. I will describe each one separately. The first coin is an 1814 dime. It is in a very worn grade, with the date barely showing on it and a couple of the stars and some letters on the back nearly wiped out. However, the picture on the coin is not as blurry as you might expect with as much wear as it has. In fact, in some ways, I rather like this old dime. It has a nice antique look to it. The second coin is an old quarter printed in 1806. It also is very nearly worn out, again with a couple of letters on the front and several on the back being a little bit smudged. However, the picture once again does have a couple of minor details left and is only a little blurry. Third in this lot is a half dollar from 1809, and it seems to be in a little better shape than the other three coins. None of the letters or numbers are blurred at all, and only the main picture is a little bit smudged out. My son Clifford believes there is actually some old mint luster at the edge of the coin! Finally, I will include a silver dollar from 1795, which should be the most valuable of the four coins. It is more worn than the half dollar, but still should have some value, I would think. Cliff noticed that there is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it. Since these coins are older than average and therefore a little more valuable, I'm sorry that I can't start it off at an extremely low value, but I will try to make this affordable to any interested collectors out there. Please remember that this is for a total of four (4) coins, all sold as-is, so I hope they go for a reasonable price.

All she said about the coin doctoring is that "Cliff noticed that there is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it." Does that sound like full disclosure? No, all she did was say there's a shiny spot that is inconsistent with the rest of the coin. There is no mention of the retoning or other doctoring at all. And she mentions it as if her son just happened to notice it, not that she bought it with the problems explicitly explained to her or to her son.

dorkarl was kind enough to explain away the fact that she gave the false impression that this came from her husband's estate because she wrote she would "do something different." According to the context, the "doing something different" refers to her offering a group of early coins and describing each one separately (unless she's James Joyce).

Jadecoin was lenient enough to say that since she traded coins with them, the new coins were thus technically part of the estate. This is the kind of sophistry only a lawyer could appreciate.

Let's give her the benefit of the doubt. Deb really does exist and has dealt with Jade Coins. No problem so far. However, what do we say about the deceptive descriptions?

1) Speaking of coins she recently got from a dealer without disclosing that fact while describing only Harold's estate gives the impression that the coins came from his collection.
2) Omitting an explanation that the coins were doctored is misleading.
3) Explaining only part of the coin doctoring (the shiny part that the artificial toning didn't stick to) as something her son just happened to notice, while failing to disclose the other problems and the fact that she was informed of those problems, is also misleading.

My conclusion is that whoever is selling the coins (whether Deb or someone acting as her) pretends to know much less than he or she really does. In this case the seller included coins he or she recently acquired as part of her late husband's collection and failed to mention very important facts about the coins. The seller also added language that also gave the false impression that he or she knew nothing about the doctoring (i.e. describing only part of the problem and giving the impression that someone else discovered it).

So is there a real Deb who's selling coins with faulty descriptions out of sheer ignorance? Is there a real Deb selling coins with faulty descriptions out of craft? Is there a dealer pretending to be the widow of an old estate selling doctored coins as original or only slightly impaired? In the end, it doesn't really matter much. What matters is that people are not getting the real story behind coins for sale, and some of the information is important to establish the true value of the coins.

Do we agree that the descriptions are faulty, or do we need to go over it again?

dbldie55 · August 22, 2002 7:17AM

But look at the Positive feedbacks! Guess what, all those people who bought whizzed and cleaned morgans off of TV years ago were happy too, until they went to sell them years later. The people here who bought stuff just bought some cheap stuff and paid a fair amount. Some of the sales I saw were multiples of the coins apparent worth. Not sure these people are truly going to be happy in the end.

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 7:38AM

<< I'm glad to hear she described that the coins were tooled and artificially toned and that they weren't part of Harold's estate. ... All she said about the coin doctoring is that "Cliff noticed that there is a criss-cross scratched on the front that somebody may have attempted to scrape off, since the area on the picture itself is shiny, while the rest of the coin has some dirt on it." Does that sound like full disclosure? >>

you better believe it. any body who would have realistic interest in early bust coinage would instantly know just by the "crisscross scratch" and "scrape" that they ain't no way in the world this coin is original. do you honestly think anyone would be fooled otherwise?

also, you keyed another thing when you use the word "faulty" in your last sentence. seems to me that in every round i an remember, there have been several "faulty" coins listed with very detailed desc's of what was faulty about them.
PROOF:exhibit a
exhibit b
exhibit c
don;t have links to other earlier listings, but anyone in deb's legion of followers would admit to reading about faulty coins many times before. the recent listing where she had 9 silver dollars specificallly mentions one that is "scrubbed up" . also, last months "faulty" gold coin would be VERY expenisve problme-free (MUCH more than the bust dollar), so why would a liar & cheat like deb mention it was "faulty"?

shiro, i just do not buy your accusation that the 1795 dollar was intentionally misleading as to originality. &
obviously the desc. was effective enough, because the coin went for a consistent net value $770.

<< explain away the fact that she gave the false impression that this came from her husband's estate because she wrote she would "do something different." According to the context, the "doing something different" refers to her offering a group of early coins and describing each one separately (unless she's James Joyce). >>

again, i just don't buy this accusation that there was malicious intent to make buyer's think the coin was part of the estate. the long, boring drivel has been 100% consistent in every auction, and obviuosly is cut-n-pasted into every listing. if she would have been selling her undergarments in this auction, i think the drivel would STILL be there. i am convinced that there was simply no intentional deceit here.

<< Jadecoin was lenient enough to say that since she traded coins with them, the new coins were thus technically part of the estate. This is the kind of sophistry only a lawyer could appreciate. >>

... and doesn't have much bearing on this at all, since it isn't the point.

<< Let's give her the benefit of the doubt. Deb really does exist and has dealt with Jade Coins. No problem so far. However, what do we say about the deceptive descriptions?

1) Speaking of coins she recently got from a dealer without disclosing that fact while describing only Harold's estate gives the impression that the coins came from his collection.
2) Omitting an explanation that the coins were doctored is misleading.
3) Explaining only part of the coin doctoring (the shiny part that the artificial toning didn't stick to) as something her son just happened to notice, while failing to disclose the other problems and the fact that she was informed of those problems, is also misleading. >>

all 3 points refuted above.

<< My conclusion is that whoever is selling the coins (whether Deb or someone acting as her) pretends to know much less than he or she really does. >>

agreed

<< In this case the seller included coins he or she recently acquired as part of her late husband's collection and failed to mention very important facts about the coins. The seller also added language that also gave the false impression that he or she knew nothing about the doctoring (i.e. describing only part of the problem and giving the impression that someone else discovered it). >>

refuted (imo)

<< So is there a real Deb who's selling coins with faulty descriptions out of sheer ignorance? Is there a real Deb selling coins with faulty descriptions out of craft? Is there a dealer pretending to be the widow of an old estate selling doctored coins as original or only slightly impaired? In the end, it doesn't really matter much. >>

it does to some like russ, & that has to be respected. but i also respect 800 positive feedbacks for the 2 sellers

<< What matters is that people are not getting the real story behind coins for sale, and some of the information is important to establish the true value of the coins. >>

again, refuted. what is the "real" story behind any coin? i do believe that the story as told by deb is 98% true. here is what i beleive:

#1 there was a large estate of high-quality coins
#2 the owner of the estate died, leaving a wife and offspring
#3 the heirs to the estate are selling the coins on ebay w/ a dealer's help
#4 parts of the story ARE DEFINITELY distorted, but not to mislead sellers for more $, rather to protect privacy.

<< Do we agree that the descriptions are faulty, or do we need to go over it again? >>

we DO NOT agree per my responses above.

K S

shirohniichan · August 22, 2002 7:59AM

1) Speaking of coins she recently got from a dealer without disclosing that fact while describing only Harold's estate gives the impression that the coins came from his collection.
2) Omitting an explanation that the coins were doctored is misleading.
3) Explaining only part of the coin doctoring (the shiny part that the artificial toning didn't stick to) as something her son just happened to notice, while failing to disclose the other problems and the fact that she was informed of those problems, is also misleading. >>

all 3 points refuted above.

I still haven't read anything that refutes the statements I made about this specific auction.

Examples of better dislosure in other cases do not cover the lack of full disclosure in this one. I thought we were just discussing the 1795 dollar, not other auctions. Giving information on suspected graffiti removal is not the same as saying she the person who sold it to her disclosed that it had been tooled and retoned to make it look better than it really was. As I wrote above, she failed to disclose that the coins were not part of her husband's collection.

obviously the desc. was effective enough, because the coin went for a consistent net value $770.
You are assuming the true value of the other coins to reach this figure. There is no consensus on this.

There has been a lot of dancing around the issues I've raised, but still nothing that directly refutes any of the 3 points I've raised.

(Pardon any mistakes in writing-- I had to do a lot of cutting and pasting.)

DMWJR · August 22, 2002 8:08AM

Good Morning Threadfollowers! And what a lovely day it is today down here in the south. Mr. Dork, my deceased grandmother left me bags and bags of old brown pennies that have a leaf of some variety on the back. Maybe they are stalks of oats or wheats, or something of that nature??? And some of them have letters on the back like VDD??? My eyesight is not to good anymore, but there is one real shiny one with the date 1922 on it. It doesn't have any of those curious little letters on it such as "S" or "D" like the other brown pennies.

Since you have been so kind to defend the honor of a poor old widow woman on this thread, I would like to offer you these old oat pennies, for say a dollar each? I have bags and bags of them and would give you first right to purchase them. I know it would make my grandmother proud to practically give them to you at such a low price because you are so kind and generous. I know she would not have wanted me to charge you any postage, regardless of where you live.

I hope to talk to you soon!!!!

clevegreg · August 22, 2002 8:57AM

ROTFLMAO

Russ · August 22, 2002 9:14AM

<< that's for people a lot smarter than me (like russ). >>

Karl,

You're plenty smart and, clearly, having a great time playing Devil's Advocate.

Russ, NCNE

mdwoods · August 22, 2002 9:44AM

Has anyone offered Karl that nice chunk of wetlands near Death Valley?

ldhair · August 22, 2002 9:49AM

Your right Russ but to be good at playing Devil's Advocate there is never a need for all the anger and four letter words used by dork. It takes away from any point one might make and belongs somewhere else but here. Anger management is important in todays world. Sorry to be blunt but it's how I feel. I don't wish to give dork more to jump on me for, but I must say there is enough here to see that something is not right about Earlycoin.

mdwoods · August 22, 2002 10:12AM

How soon they forget!! Here is the text from Karls first post on the previous thread regarding Husbands Estate

"<< and the conclusion is that she is truly on the up-and-up >>

who in heck concluded that???

ok, i have to admit that i bought some coins from her a while back, was pleased with them, but i've personally come to the conclusion that something's amiss. ie., i find myself in agreement with Russ. BTW i haven't bid on anymore of "her" auctions either.

K S "

DMWJR · August 22, 2002 11:22AM

res ipsa loquitur

"The thing speaks for itself"

dakra · August 22, 2002 11:37AM

All I Know is...

If It Smells Like a Skunk
and looks like a skunk
it must be those musty Proof Sets.

d

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 11:55AM

<< Giving information on suspected graffiti removal is not the same as saying the person who sold it to her disclosed that it had been tooled and retoned to make it look better than it really was....she failed to disclose that the coins were not part of her husband's collection. >>

shiro, i reeally do respect your opionin - i believe you are claiming malicious intent to deceive bidders into believing this coin grades higher (vg i'm assuming, & not good) and that it was originally part of the estate. i disagree with your opinion, and claim that i've refuted your claim. i simply believe there is no evidence of malicious deceit here. i've seen malicious deceit in many ads (ebay and otherwise), and this is not it - again my opinoin.

<< You are assuming the true value of the other coins to reach this figure ($770). There is no consensus on this. >>

and no disagreement, either. i believe (opinion) these 4 coins (and others) were purchased by a dealer. i doubt he'd pay much more than retail for em.

<< There has been a lot of dancing around the issues I've raised, but still nothing that directly refutes any of the 3 points I've raised. >>

no dancing at all! issues refuted becuase you (seem) to claim there was malicious intent, or even just "intent" to deceive, and i say there's no proof of that.

when i first read the stuff about her buying a coin and fixing it up, you better believe i jumped on the bandwagon. everything that was said pointed at deceit, lies, conspiracy and malicious intent to rip off the public. but later comments and "evidence" just don't support that claim. i also am not on a bandwagon that "deb" is "real" and that its 100% a true story, just that i think there is SOME truth to the whole "Estate" thing, i believe that, contrary to malicious intents, these listings have been conservative and low-key.

bottom line: shiro states there was a concerted effort to deceive the public. i do not agree, and no way is dbldie55 going to convince me that 800 people were fooled by whizzed coins into leaving postiive feedback.

K S

ps your right about the devil's advocate

, and have you noticed that i cleaned up my act? (and the language)

Bear · August 22, 2002 12:00PM

The thing that makes a con believable, is the amount of truth contained in the tale. The more the truth , the more effective the con. Its starting to read like a Raymond Chandler mystery. I wonder when the bodies start showing up? Bear

shirohniichan · August 22, 2002 12:59PM

bottom line: shiro states there was a concerted effort to deceive the public.

I thought I left the possibility that she really was that naive.

Edited to add the following:

So is there a real Deb who's selling coins with faulty descriptions out of sheer ignorance? Is there a real Deb selling coins with faulty descriptions out of craft? Is there a dealer pretending to be the widow of an old estate selling doctored coins as original or only slightly impaired? In the end, it doesn't really matter much. What matters is that people are not getting the real story behind coins for sale, and some of the information is important to establish the true value of the coins.

See? I did say it's possible there is a Deb who is really ignorant. The bottom line, according to me, is that buyers were not given all the information necesary to make an informed decision. Do we disagree on this?

Looking over the possible scenarios, in my opinion it is quite possible there was intent to deceive. Whether the intent existed or not, the information was poor enough that the person who takes the description at face value is likely to believe incorrectly about the coins.

dlshaw · August 22, 2002 2:52PM

With the history of everything that earlycoins says in their listings, why don't they/she have a
"me" page on Ebay?

michael · August 22, 2002 3:25PM

many people have needs to be met and lots of money to spend

like P.T. Barnum said there is a fool born every minute and

you can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time BUT NOT

all of the people all of the time.......lol

remember what goes around comes around

and in the end when all is said and done you will have to answer for all you do and it will not be worth it!

sincerely michael

DirtroadRider · August 22, 2002 3:35PM

Error in posting.I have removed it from the forum

dorkkarl · August 22, 2002 10:40PM

dirtroad dude, that's a different coin. i'd recognize it an instant, and it hasn't been on any of the "deb" listings that i remember. w/ or w/out the repair, that's a nice looking coin.

<< buyers were not given all the information necesary to make an informed decision. Do we disagree on this? >>

we disagree. IF buyers had NOT made an informed decision, i would agree. but i claim that the final price on the 4 coins was consistent w/ their value, therefore the desc. was sufficient to make an informed decision. (ie. an uninformed public would have bid too much on the coin.) and i AGREE that coins should have all "problems" described that are known to the seller.

<< in my opinion it is quite possible there was intent to deceive >>

shiro dude, i think that's really the bottom line. some believe "deb's" primary intent is to maliciously deceive the public into paying more for coins than they should. some disagree, myself + everyone whose left her pos. f.b..

i'm outta here, i don't see how much longer this thread can go on.

K S

DirtroadRider · August 24, 2002 4:01PM

Sorry for the error. My mistake,wrong post.

stinkinlincoln · July 2, 2009 11:56AM

Interesting read...

Barry · July 2, 2009 12:05PM

You must be bored, digging through threads that old!

stinkinlincoln · July 2, 2009 12:14PM

Not bored, the link to the coin restoration site really interested me though. Wasnt sure if anyone here has ever heard about them before.

Harold's Estate, New Wrinkle?

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