Options
Leaving negative feedback...fake pcgs coins from ebay
joebb21
Posts: 4,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
Over the last month I have purchased 2 coins off ebay that were clearly fake pcgs holders and fake coins.
The first coin was a 1919-s 5c pcgs ms64 that looked to be an AU at best. I showed the coin to John Albanese who immediately confirmed my suspicion.
I looked over sellers feedback and noticed he had sold 3 coins total out of his 50+ feedback. All three coins looked fake including a 1916-d 10c pcgs xf40 (over $4k and was given positive feedback).
I emailed the seller after filing a claim with paypal and asked where the coins came from. He told me that he was selling the coins for a friend and that he had no idea the coins were not real. He asked that I please return the coin for a full refund and cancel the paypal claim. To me, the selling of counterfeits is a huge deal. I told him I will be in contact with pcgs and will then let him know how to proceed...
Yesterday I received another fake coin. It was a 1901-s 25c pcgs vg8. This one was terribly done. The slab is off as the first coin was but looking at how "stuffed" and "off" the obverse and reverse are from each other made me believe immediately the coin was a sandwich fake. I emailed the second seller (feedback 150+) and after noticing that he too sold 3 coins total and all 3 looked fake. I asked where these came from and was told he got these coins off craigslist.... He too offered a full refund...but I will be speaking to pcgs later to see what they say.
I really dont want to return the coins to the sellers and have them relist the coins and the next guy is just going to get burned, but what other choice do I have in the matter?
It was interesting to note, though I can't say there is any connection- each seller sold 3 coins.
each sold 1 morgan for over 1k (different years)
each sold 1 buffalo nickel for over 2k (different years)
and the third coin was a higher valued coin; either the 1916-d or the 1901-s.
I was thinking about leaving negative feedback on both accounts just to let others know that counterfeits have been sold by that seller and to be aware.
Should I leave negative feedback?
Should I return the coins?
what do you think?
The first coin was a 1919-s 5c pcgs ms64 that looked to be an AU at best. I showed the coin to John Albanese who immediately confirmed my suspicion.
I looked over sellers feedback and noticed he had sold 3 coins total out of his 50+ feedback. All three coins looked fake including a 1916-d 10c pcgs xf40 (over $4k and was given positive feedback).
I emailed the seller after filing a claim with paypal and asked where the coins came from. He told me that he was selling the coins for a friend and that he had no idea the coins were not real. He asked that I please return the coin for a full refund and cancel the paypal claim. To me, the selling of counterfeits is a huge deal. I told him I will be in contact with pcgs and will then let him know how to proceed...
Yesterday I received another fake coin. It was a 1901-s 25c pcgs vg8. This one was terribly done. The slab is off as the first coin was but looking at how "stuffed" and "off" the obverse and reverse are from each other made me believe immediately the coin was a sandwich fake. I emailed the second seller (feedback 150+) and after noticing that he too sold 3 coins total and all 3 looked fake. I asked where these came from and was told he got these coins off craigslist.... He too offered a full refund...but I will be speaking to pcgs later to see what they say.
I really dont want to return the coins to the sellers and have them relist the coins and the next guy is just going to get burned, but what other choice do I have in the matter?
It was interesting to note, though I can't say there is any connection- each seller sold 3 coins.
each sold 1 morgan for over 1k (different years)
each sold 1 buffalo nickel for over 2k (different years)
and the third coin was a higher valued coin; either the 1916-d or the 1901-s.
I was thinking about leaving negative feedback on both accounts just to let others know that counterfeits have been sold by that seller and to be aware.
Should I leave negative feedback?
Should I return the coins?
what do you think?
may the fonz be with you...always...
0
Comments
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
If you present a counterfeit $20 bill to any bank..................you don't get it back AND the bank will not reimburse you $20
The coins in question should be sent via Express Mail to PCGS for validation that they are in fact counterfeit. Any replies from PCGS should determine your actions.
If they are counterfeit, contact PayPal on how to proceed with getting your money back and by all means, file your neg to let others know.
The name is LEE!
If you can get your money back without returning the coins, that would be ideal. If you must return the coins, you might crack them out first or write "fake" on the slab with a soldering iron.
Of course!
<< <i>I presume this is the quarter. Notice that it's from Northern California. >>
Yes that is the quarter.
I did also forget to mention that both sellers were from CA
<< <i>What would prevent a buyer from claiming a coin was counterfeit, keeping it and demanding the return of his money. >>
Thus the suggestion by 19Lyds to send the coins to PCGS for confirmation.
Russ, NCNE
with Ebay and let them know that you'll be sending the coins to PCGS or will in fact destroy the
coins.
I have done this successfully with fake Trade $$'s. I did not send them back to the seller but
did destroy them (well, one was sent to a collector of fakes and he promised not to ever sell it).
So, give them a call and see where it goes.
bob
Oh and the real one with that cert number has a green bean.
<< <i>I would definitely leave negative FB AND threaten all sorts of legal action should the seller refuse to refund my money even without returning the coins! He has obviously violated several laws not the least of which is mail fraud which is a federal ioffense. I would probably notify the appropriate authorities in any event! Force the seller to "out" his source if he was not the Creator of the fakes!!!
The standard common law test of criminal liability is usually expressed in the Latin phrase, actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind be also guilty". Thus, in jurisdictions with due process, there must be an actus reus accompanied by some level of mens rea to constitute the crime with which the defendant is charged.
<< <i>In order to get your refunds you have to return the merchandise, otherwise you have either bought the merchandise or you are seizing merchandise which you have no legal power to do. The moral high ground doesn't carry any legal rights here; play by the rules and let the authorities and/or PCGS do what it is that they choose to. >>
I agree. If PCGS deems them counterfeit, that should be reason for them not to be returned. However, I've had buyers demand refunds and not want to return items because they were counterfeit. The problem is that the coins were genuine...
<< <i>On the flipside, in a private transaction how could an innocent seller confirm that the coin was counterfeit if you did not return it. What would prevent a buyer from claiming a coin was counterfeit, keeping it and demanding the return of his money. From your description it really does not sound like this seller was innocent, but I just wanted to point out the hazards of keeping the item yourself. I agree with 19Lyds that the coins should be confirmed as counterfeit rather than you just keeping them yourself. >>
READ my suggestions above.
Only PCGS can confirm that the slabs and the coins are counterfeit. It should be the buyers responsibility to forward them to PCGS for a "professional" decision which could then be used to justify the PayPal claim and the neg to "warn" other buyers.
It is just that simple.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>You do not have to return counterfeit coins to the seller to get a full refund. Get on the horn
with Ebay and let them know that you'll be sending the coins to PCGS or will in fact destroy the
coins.
I have done this successfully with fake Trade $$'s. I did not send them back to the seller but
did destroy them (well, one was sent to a collector of fakes and he promised not to ever sell it).
So, give them a call and see where it goes.
bob
Oh and the real one with that cert number has a green bean. >>
This is still an example of "your" opinion and while you may certainly be qualified to make the call, PCGS should be considered the Professional . If they determine the salbs are counterfeit, they can crack out the coin and return it to you. If both the slab and coin are counterfeit, they can destroy both along with providing you a letter of intent which can serve as your legal evidence.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>You do not have to return counterfeit coins to the seller to get a full refund. Get on the horn
with Ebay and let them know that you'll be sending the coins to PCGS or will in fact destroy the
coins.
I have done this successfully with fake Trade $$'s. I did not send them back to the seller but
did destroy them (well, one was sent to a collector of fakes and he promised not to ever sell it).
So, give them a call and see where it goes.
bob
Oh and the real one with that cert number has a green bean. >>
This is still an example of "your" opinion and while you may certainly be qualified to make the call, PCGS should be considered the Professional . If they determine the salbs are counterfeit, they can crack out the coin and return it to you. If both the slab and coin are counterfeit, they can destroy both along with providing you a letter of intent which can serve as your legal evidence. >>
In your scenario, who would pay the PCGS fees?
Anyway, only Federal Agents would be allowed to seize the coins.
Failure to return the coins to the seller after getting a refund would certainly be tortious, possibly criminal.
I see many problems arising from this.
People already owning fakes could claim the coins they rec'd were fake, when in actuality they were real, then submit their fake coins to a TPG and claim a refund. And that's just off the top of my head!
My advice would be to return the coins, filing a SNAD claim if needed.
Leaving a negative feedback is optional but should you say the coins were fakes and are incorrect regarding the authenticity, the seller has a valid case for libel.
I bought an expensive AU Morgan on eBay that instantly looked fake when I received it. I drove to PCGS to get confirmation. They immediately agreed it was fake. They also said they wanted to keep it. I pointed out that in order for me to get a refund I had to return the fake coin (which an attorney friend confirmed was correct). I asked that if they kept the coin did it mean they were going to pay me a refund. They said no. At that point I insisted on getting the coin back, which they were not overly thrilled to do. They did so, however, along with a very stern letter to the seller advising him about patent infringement of their product and a promise to pursue legal action if the coin ever reappeared on the market.
Hello
Heres a 1901-S Barber Quarter
Grade VG08 PCGS
Its Silver and it has been circulated!!!
I'd ask if he'd be willing to take it out of the holder and shine it with silver polish before I bought it. If he agreed, I'd pass.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You do not have to return counterfeit coins to the seller to get a full refund. Get on the horn
with Ebay and let them know that you'll be sending the coins to PCGS or will in fact destroy the
coins.
I have done this successfully with fake Trade $$'s. I did not send them back to the seller but
did destroy them (well, one was sent to a collector of fakes and he promised not to ever sell it).
So, give them a call and see where it goes.
bob
Oh and the real one with that cert number has a green bean. >>
This is still an example of "your" opinion and while you may certainly be qualified to make the call, PCGS should be considered the Professional . If they determine the salbs are counterfeit, they can crack out the coin and return it to you. If both the slab and coin are counterfeit, they can destroy both along with providing you a letter of intent which can serve as your legal evidence. >>
In your scenario, who would pay the PCGS fees? >>
A dedicated Coin Collector or Dealer that REALLY wanted to get these off of the streets. Besides, PCGS would not charge you a fee unless the slab and coin were deemed legitimate. In which case, horse on you. This thread is regarding a legitimate counterfeit slab and coin which I'm positive that PCGS would simply LOVE to get off of the streets.
<< <i>Anyway, only Federal Agents would be allowed to seize the coins. >>
I once observed a Taco Bell Manager "seizing" a suspected counterfeit $10 bill. After the police were called, upon my insistance (since the manager would NOT return the bill for examination and what could a Taco Bell Manager possibly know?), the Police verified it was a counterfeit. Since they had guns, I was able to examine the bill. BTW, the fellow that received it and inadvertantly spent it was not reimbursed his $10.
<< <i>Failure to return the coins to the seller after getting a refund would certainly be tortious, possibly criminal. >>
NOT if was determined to be counterfeit by a qualified professional.
<< <i>I see many problems arising from this.
People already owning fakes could claim the coins they rec'd were fake, when in actuality they were real, then submit their fake coins to a TPG and claim a refund. And that's just off the top of my head! >>
Phoney slabs with phoney coins have trackable cert numbers which would be included on any correspondence. The subject of this thread has nothing to do with receiving a RAW counterfeit coin off an eBay sale which would indeed be untraceable except for series/date/mm.
<< <i>My advice would be to return the coins, filing a SNAD claim if needed.
Leaving a negative feedback is optional but should you say the coins were fakes and are incorrect regarding the authenticity, the seller has a valid case for libel. >>
You're certainly entitled to your opinion like everybody else but the offered solution does nothing to address counterfeit slabs with counterfeit coins except let the "other" guy solve the problem.
The name is LEE!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
"this seller is a f c k n scam artists"
You have to read this stuff.
EAC 6024
18 USCA Section 492 (United States Code)
All counterfeits of any coins or obligations or other securities of the United States or of any foreign government, or any articles, devices, and other things made, possessed, or used in violation of this chapter or of sections 331-333, 335, 336, 642 or 1720, of this title, or any material or apparatus used or fitted or intended to be used, in the making of such counterfeits, articles, devices or things, found in the possession of any person without authority from the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer, shall be forfeited to the United States.
Whoever, having the custody or control of any such counterfeits, material, apparatus, articles, devices, or other things, fails or refuses to surrender possession thereof upon request by any authorized agent of the Treasury Department, or other proper officer, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
<< <i>The proper person to seize counterfeit money - and the only authority authorized by law to seize counterfeit money - is a representative of the Treasury Department or other proper officer. We as individuals cannot seize counterfeit money. We can notify the authorities and have them seize it though. Here is the federal statute dealing with this.
18 USCA Section 492 (United States Code)
All counterfeits of any coins or obligations or other securities of the United States or of any foreign government, or any articles, devices, and other things made, possessed, or used in violation of this chapter or of sections 331-333, 335, 336, 642 or 1720, of this title, or any material or apparatus used or fitted or intended to be used, in the making of such counterfeits, articles, devices or things, found in the possession of any person without authority from the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer, shall be forfeited to the United States.
Whoever, having the custody or control of any such counterfeits, material, apparatus, articles, devices, or other things, fails or refuses to surrender possession thereof upon request by any authorized agent of the Treasury Department, or other proper officer, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. >>
Boy, that's real teeth in the penalties: jail for one year and a fine. Whooop d do! Whatever happened to "death to counterfeiters"?
bob
As a seller on E-Bay I'd be VERY worried if every Tom Dick and Harry could say a coin was counterfeit, keep it AND get a refund.
I've almost purchased a few counterfeit PCGS slabs, and they originated from this same area.
I'm guessing Don Willis would be VERY interested in knowing more about this, as would the secret service.....trust me they will call you.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>Failure to return the coins to the seller after getting a refund would certainly be tortious, possibly criminal. >>
NOT if was determined to be counterfeit by a qualified professional. >>
PCGS (and Taco Bell managers) are not Federal Agents and are not authorized to seize currency or coins which, IN THEIR OPINION, are counterfeit.
While I agree that counterfeit coins and slabs should be taken off the market, taking the law into one's own hands is never the answer.
Lance.