When would you issue a refund?
mrearlygold
Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
New customer out of the blue calls and purchases a coin valued at 50K. The coin is a monster. Customer doesn't send wire after being told that wired funds results in shipping within 24-48 hours while checks are held till clear. There is never any abiguity about deals here. Customer calls a couple times while check is being processed asking if coin has been shipped etc etc. It's a brokerage check and our bank who advises there is no way they can guarantee the check clearing unless the customer provides a human beings name and photo number to call at the customers bank. Customer says it's a brokerage check and not sure if they would even vouch for his checks, information privacy etc.
I go ahead and ship the coin express mail 8/30/2011, 5 business days after receiving check that the banks don't seem to want to show clearance so I take a shot. Customer gets coin and says "it's not shiny enough" or something to that effect. ( If someone would like to see the coin that's not shiny enough pm me) and wants to return it. I send shipping instructions . Customer sends coin back 9/2/2011 and I receive it on 9/3/11. Now customer has sent several emails requesting when I am sending a refund check. It has been 13 business days today since originally depositing the check that I can't get my bank to provide me clearance on.
When would you send a check?
I go ahead and ship the coin express mail 8/30/2011, 5 business days after receiving check that the banks don't seem to want to show clearance so I take a shot. Customer gets coin and says "it's not shiny enough" or something to that effect. ( If someone would like to see the coin that's not shiny enough pm me) and wants to return it. I send shipping instructions . Customer sends coin back 9/2/2011 and I receive it on 9/3/11. Now customer has sent several emails requesting when I am sending a refund check. It has been 13 business days today since originally depositing the check that I can't get my bank to provide me clearance on.
When would you send a check?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
0
Comments
It's a brokerage check and our bank who advises there is no way they can guarantee the check clearing unless the customer provides a human beings name and photo number to call at the customers bank. Customer says it's a brokerage check and not sure if they would even vouch for his checks, information privacy etc.
If that's the case and the check is in limbo have him just stop payment once you have the coin in your possession.
Am I missing something here?
edit to add: I guess I am missing something. If the check has not cleared, why not just ask your bank to cancel the transaction?
<< <i>Do you have the coin back? If so, I would issue the refund. If not, I would wait until I have the coin back.
Am I missing something here?
edit to add: I guess I am missing something. If the check has not cleared, why not just ask your bank to cancel the transaction? >>
That's part of the point. My bank will not guarantee me clearance of the customers check. I could essentially send 40K back and, oops check no good. I'm not going to say yet what I think
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>That's part of the point. My bank will not guarantee me clearance of the customers check. >>
This check sounds real rubbery as it could clear and then bounce a week later due to some stipulation.
Having your bank just kill it as mentioned by member relicsncoins sounds like the safest approach.
I originally took the shot and shipped at 4 business days despite my company policy of waiting for clearance which generaly takes 7-10 business days ( does anyone remember my thread here from a couple years ago where a notice of a bad check wasn't even sent to us from bank of america for 3 weeks? ) because he sounded like a nice fellow and, well, so I took the shot. But the reason for returning coupled with the speed in which this is turning around raised an antenae.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
If it was a scam, why wouldn't the guy just keep the coin instead of risking sending it back and not getting a 'refund'?
<< <i>Sounds like one of those that has the potential to be a scam. You issue refund and the original cheque never clears and you never hear of the guy again. >>
If it's a scam, why didn't the buyer just keep the coin?
I'd try to find an expert, even if you have to pay good money.
<< <i><<< Sounds like one of those that has the potential to be a scam >>>
If it was a scam, why wouldn't the guy just keep the coin instead of risking sending it back and not getting a 'refund'? >>
Because he wants a free 50K, not a free coin.
In my opinion checks never clear. Account holder can come back months later and claim they did not issue the check, someone else did. I personally would have only settled for a wire transfer. The only for sure action is to get the original check back and return it or tell him to cancel it. I would tell him the bank has lost it, to put a stop payment on it. One way to solve the problem is to close your account before it gets credited to your account.
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
-Keith
<< <i>Do you have the coin back? If so, I would issue the refund. If not, I would wait until I have the coin back.
Am I missing something here?
edit to add: I guess I am missing something. If the check has not cleared, why not just ask your bank to cancel the transaction? >>
The problem here is that once MrNearlyGold issues a refund, that refund comes out of his account presumable from good funds. However, checks can take as much as a month to "officially" clear where funds are transferred from the check writers account into the sellers account.
In other words, unless the sellers bank can "guarantee" the funds, they aren't really there to refund.
The name is LEE!
I've been burned before...
I take the out of state check to my bank and deposit it. I ask "when will I know it has cleared?" I'm told "you won't get a bounce notice." Say what? No kidding...that is the answer I got. "Okay, let me ask it differently. How long should I wait before it is safe to assume the funds cleared?" "Seven business days, sir."
So I wait 10 business days, no bounce notice, funds appear in my account, so I ship the $3G coin.
You guessed it, a couple of days later I get word of the bounce and penalty fee. Seems the bank tried to put it through twice but never said anything to me about trouble clearing it.
Of course the slimeball across the country wouldn't answer email, postal letters, etc. and every authority I wrote to passed the buck. I should have taken up my brother-in-law's offer to make a personal visit with some of his redneck buddies.
To the OP I say, let him wait. Don't do a refund until at least two weeks since the check was deposited.
Lance.
<< <i>Would you tell the customer that you require some kind of letter from his brokerage acct showing the check is cleared in writing?
I originally took the shot and shipped at 4 business days despite my company policy of waiting for clearance which generaly takes 7-10 business days ( does anyone remember my thread here from a couple years ago where a notice of a bad check wasn't even sent to us from bank of america for 3 weeks? ) because he sounded like a nice fellow and, well, so I took the shot. But the reason for returning coupled with the speed in which this is turning around raised an antenae. >>
Not sure why you bank cannot verify good funds but you could ask him to provide you the address and phone number of the branch (verify online) name of his advisor, name compliance officer for the branch, and name of branch manager and verify with at least 2 out of 3 of those employees that his account has been debited for the amount,...you may want to have your bank's branch manager on the phone as well
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Would you tell the customer that you require some kind of letter from his brokerage acct showing the check is cleared in writing?
I originally took the shot and shipped at 4 business days despite my company policy of waiting for clearance which generaly takes 7-10 business days ( does anyone remember my thread here from a couple years ago where a notice of a bad check wasn't even sent to us from bank of america for 3 weeks? ) because he sounded like a nice fellow and, well, so I took the shot. But the reason for returning coupled with the speed in which this is turning around raised an antenae. >>
So that was you??
Why are you even asking??
The name is LEE!
check is a promise to pay, I don't extend credit to those I don't personally know.
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
It sounds like the bank can take a really long (indefinite?) time to clear the check, so you never have clear funds to return to the seller, who sent you the funds in the first place.
OR
I'd call my institution and have them stop the entire transaction immediately in fear of check fraud. Granted, this might go overboard, but at least the financial institution will take you seriously and investigate the matter rather than nonchalant routine waiting to see what happens.
<< <i>At least you're holding all of the cards. You have the coin and your bank has his check. >>
The flip side is that in the event that the buyer is legit and has the potential to be a good customer in the future, the seller is going to be perceived as jerking him around. He even might come to the forum and start a thread entitled, "What would you do? Seller has the coin and my $50k."
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Tell him the check is in the mail.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>At least you're holding all of the cards. You have the coin and your bank has his check. >>
The flip side is that in the event that the buyer is legit and has the potential to be a good customer in the future, the seller is going to be perceived as jerking him around. He even might come to the forum and start a thread entitled, "What would you do? Seller has the coin and my $50k." >>
seller doesn't have the $50K, and even if check clears will not be 100% sure there won't be a later claim of "forged/stolen check."
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
And next time shine up yer coins real purty like 'cuz that's what the people want!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Having your bank just kill it as mentioned by member relicsncoins sounds like the safest approach. >>
what he said.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
<< <i>At least you're holding all of the cards. You have the coin and your bank has his check. >>
The flip side is that in the event that the buyer is legit and has the potential to be a good customer in the future, the seller is going to be perceived as jerking him around. He even might come to the forum and start a thread entitled, "What would you do? Seller has the coin and my $50k." >>
I couldn't care less if I ever hear from the guy again. The return was so stupid he's cut off. At this point I'm interested in protecting my interests. But I still want to be fair. I wouldn't have said anything but today when I received a 2nd "did you send" email I thought you know what, I need to slow this one down a little.
To those who said get another bank. You haven't been in the type of business that runs the type of money thru the banks as fast as this business does. They really don't care and with the way the privacy laws are set up they now have a legal way to not work , not even put an effort out by simply telling you they don't give that information out. It's not our bank it's ALL banks. IN this case our bank would love to accomodate me are you kidding? I make 7 figures go away and I have to believe that someone is called into an office at the bank don't you think and I maintain big balances to boot. But in the case of say bank of america, it's THEY who won't give my bank information when they call! So forget about them giving me any info and so I stopped calling a couple years ago and left it to the bank to do, my bank and they've been really accomodating but within the last few months it's gotten tougher and tougher to do and now they want a human being to talk to or else send a wire. Wires are within 24 hours and a done deal. Checks are not and as Derry said before they can easily say within 60 days, I didn't write that check and those funds would be taken from our acct. Remember I was ripped off for $160,000.00 earlier this year by people stealing from my accounts? I got 60 days back, about $40,000.00 back. The rest? Well, that's not for print. The bank went back 60 days and that is it. So anyone can say " I didn't write that check " sign a legal affadivit and that's it the money comes out. Derry is quite right about that.
It's getting harder to do business here.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I need to slow this one down a little. >>
espcially if the buyer requested the express shipment. All of my encounters with scammers have involved requests (even at their expense) for express shipment. They hoped (unsuccessfully) to get the coin quickly and stop the in-process payment or avoid me discovering the scam before the coin was shipped. With express there is no recalling the shipment easily. With the delays in registered mail there is more time to have it recalled by USPS and returned to sender in event of a payment problem.
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
<< <i>
<< <i><<< Sounds like one of those that has the potential to be a scam >>>
If it was a scam, why wouldn't the guy just keep the coin instead of risking sending it back and not getting a 'refund'? >>
Because he wants a free 50K, not a free coin.
In my opinion checks never clear. Account holder can come back months later and claim they did not issue the check, someone else did. I personally would have only settled for a wire transfer. The only for sure action is to get the original check back and return it or tell him to cancel it. I would tell him the bank has lost it, to put a stop payment on it. One way to solve the problem is to close your account before it gets credited to your account. >>
Absolutely true about checks never clearing, in effect. People need to understand that a "cleared check" means nothing in the grand scheme of things, and you
most surely can still be burned after the fact. Ask your friendly banker for confirmation of this! ALL of this represents, in the end, the cost of doing "business," i.e.,
every business, large or small, has a small percentage of "business losses," due to fraud, or whatever. These types of things plague every business person at one
time or another...
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I've never had a problem verifying a check when i had the check in hand and called the institution. Have you tried that? ---Jerry >>
There's no institution to call Jerry, it's a brokerage acct. Have you tried calling a bank of america these days? The times they are a changing.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Here's a simple motto to live by: In God We Trust - All Others Pay Cash.
Here's 2 simple rules to guide you:
Do not ship a coin until you have absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt, guaranteed that you have received your money.
Do not issue a refund until you have got your coin back.
Follow those two guidelines and you will be a heck of a lot happier.
This smells fishy. It sounds like the old "I'll send you a cashiers check for $1,000 more than I owe and you send me back the difference" routine. The more he pushes, the slower I'd be at this point. I would ask your bank to put you in touch with their security officer or fraud department. They may be helpful in determining the validity of the item where you may not be able to. (Your bank's fraud department calling the brokerage's bank fraud department.)
Don't send the money back until your certain it's safe. Too many red flags.
Andrew
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
This might be legit, but it smells fishy. Under no circumstances would I refund him anything that originates from your own account. He can stop payment from his end just as easy. I'd even offer to pay the stop payment fees (usually around $10 or $20) just to make it go away.
Better to have avoided this in the first place. Personally, I'd be willing to take a risk on someone with reasonable credentials (real address, nice on the phone, etc.) up to maybe $1,000. Beyond that, funds need to come via cashiers check (from a bank with a website and phone number), cash, money order, bullion, or wire transfer, period. Otherwise, no deal. Your own personal risk tipping point must be higher than mine - it's obviously at least $50k.
Best of luck....... but honestly, you must already know what the right answer is.
It didn't even occur to me that the original check from the buyer may still bounce. There sure are a lot of scams out there, and
unfortunately no good way to prevent them other than your own vigilence. It seems the banks and law enforcement personnel
either can't or won't help, and the scammers can skirt the law as they please.
Thanks for posting to keep guys like me informed, and good luck.
<< <i>
<< <i>That's part of the point. My bank will not guarantee me clearance of the customers check. >>
This check sounds real rubbery as it could clear and then bounce a week later due to some stipulation.
Having your bank just kill it as mentioned by member relicsncoins sounds like the safest approach. >>
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Your hunch is telling you something. Listen to it.
<< <i>Tom - Didn't you get screwed on some bad checks last year? First, I would have never accepted a check. Second, if I did accept the check, I never would have sent the coin after 5 days. I would wait 30 days. You should call the brokerage to verify the check and see if it's cleared. Regarding a refund, I'd talk to an officer in my bank and get his take on how long you should wait. For a 50K check, I'd ask him to verify it's legitimacy and that there were adequate funds in the account. >>
Hey Barry, yep they were bogus checks drawn on bank of america. I think a bunch of dealers who have websites were hit. No way to call a brokerage and even if there was a way to weave thru the various departments the answer would be they don't give information. So my bank told me to ask the customer to get a human being to call her and verify the check or else we just wait. My bank told me it could take 2 weeks but that's the same info I had when the bank of america checks came back.......3 weeks later.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
about being reimbursed give them your references and your concerns about being scammed again.
I would not ship back payment under these circumstances, nbot even after a month...not even after 6 months. You need to find someway to have the buyer cancel the
original check or have his bank declare it no good. Offer to pay the fees if it makes you feel better. But at this point the hairs on my neck are tingling.
roadrunner
<< <i>I'd call the funding institution and have them cancel the transaction, aka have the "buyer" stop payment.
OR
I'd call my institution and have them stop the entire transaction immediately in fear of check fraud. Granted, this might go overboard, but at least the financial institution will take you seriously and investigate the matter rather than nonchalant routine waiting to see what happens. >>
I agree, this seems like the only option to protect yourself from a potential scam. Your first mistake was shipping out a $50k coin, to an unknown party, without the bank clearing. Don't make a second mistake. Have the bank cancel the transaction. Or at least have the bank guarantee in writing the check is good.
I just quit taking checks, i have a drawer full that will not clear.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>In my opinion checks never clear. >>
This is probably about right. Go to your bank and ask them when they guarantee that a check is good and the bank eats the loss if anything should crop up in the future. I'd bet you won't get a definite date from them.