More coin photography questions

lordmarcovan · September 5, 2011 8:28PM

I've got Mark Goodman's book, but thus far have not read it as much as I should, and I still lack a copystand and proper camera, so I remain without the equipment part of the equation.

What I've been idly wondering is if there was some sort of gadgetry that would allow one to hook a camera and stand up to the computer, set the lights just so, and then use the monitor as a viewfinder, with mouse tools to zoom in and out and activate the shutter?

I think some of those expensive microscope setups act in this way- I've seen 'em set up at shows- but I don't think I need anything that elaborate. I'd be willing in theory to put some money into upgrading my equipment, but not that much, perhaps. I'm not a die variety guy so I don't need to zoom in that close. Actually the scanner I am currently using has the capability to do such work. Speaking of which, I have a nice scanner and it does serviceable images, but we all know the limitations of scanners, and I've pushed the envelope about as far as possible. A scanner simply will not capture luster on a coin, and trying to capture colorful toning is dicey at best. Certain types of coins like my old Barber half collection (coins with a "crusty" or "CircCam" appearance) come out fine on the scanner, but BU or toned or proof coins? Fuhgeddaboutit!

I have used my wife's camera for some handheld shots that get the basic point across, but I want to be able to do professional (OK, let's get real- semi-professional) photographs myself instead of having to mail coins to somebody else I'm paying to do it. My lack of a proper stand makes getting a straight-on image with a perfectly round coin picture difficult if not impossible, and I have plenty of lighting woes, not to mention peering through a tiny viewfinder is difficult. And the lack of a shutter release means half the time I shake the picture out of frame merely by pressing the button on the camera.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 5, 2011 9:00PM

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1. in lieu of a big copy stand, get a little one. they are metal for about $30

2. use the timer on the camera if it has one if not, get a new camera. you can find
some inexpensive digitals with macro used for $100 or so. try to find one with rechargable
batteries and/or an ac adapter. using the timer 5,10,15 seconds or whatever will prevent
the need to do all that work for a shutter release.

3. if your current camera does not have an lcd screen on the back, buy a new camera. the labor day sale would have been optimal to get a nice inexpensive digital with macro with a nice lcd.

you gotta figure having the right setup will pay for itself hundreds of times over. i went in debt to get the nikon d90 with sigma lens, copy stand, ac adapter and shutter release remote. and i have not regretted it one single second. too a couple months to get used to all the darn settings, but wow, what a setup ;-)

$30 copy stand i used one like this for months and it works just fine. i actually used coin albums below and above the metal plate to stedy it and flipped the camera holder the other way so I could have more distance. worked like a charm. only reason i upgraded to this one was because it really is one of those long-term investments that you just have to make and end up making millions with it.
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rmpsrpms · September 5, 2011 9:44PM

What you're describing is called "tethering" and many cameras are capable of it. I use Nikon's (expensive) Camera Control Pro 2 software. It allows me to control all the functions I need and to view the shot "live" on the screen. A much cheaper solution ($9.95) is ControlMyNikon, which does most of the same things. I don't know what level of Nikon Camera is required to use the ControlMyNikon, and I could not find a list on the web page, but it will definitely work with the newer (not cheap) ones like D3000, 5000, 7000, 5100, etc.

Link to ControlMyNikon

messydesk · September 5, 2011 11:21PM

The answers to your questions depend on how much you want to spend on equipment. You can get a really good cheap setup for less than $150 for everything, or reproduce the TrueView studio for probably about $4500. I'm not aware of any than you can do a remote control zoom with, unless perhaps you go to a video camera.

ambro51 · September 6, 2011 12:21AM

You DO need to do this...its fun and a great way to appreciate your coins. I read so many posts on photography and Im wondering how I do it so good not following ANYONES advice

OK My camera is a Kodak Z712 IS which I bought off ebay for about $130. I have an achromat lens of about 6 inch fl taped in front of the lens...the DO make actual macro lenses which you can buy it you like. The software is Kodak easyshare (free) and I use photoscape (free). The copy stand is the base and upright from an old yard sale enlarger...but 80 percent of the time I dont even use that.

The camera now shoots at about 10 inches from the coin. this camera has wide angle/macro zoom and I nearly fill the viewscreen with the coin. Most of my shots now are done on the workbench, under the 4 tube lighting fixture overhead. No blazing 'second sun' set of lights....

The camera is a sensitive device and sees as well in normal light as you do. I use a 'flower' setting which does not let the flash pop up...just normal existing light.

I hand brace most of my shots now, using whatever is handy....wooden box, spray paint can, etc etc...anything I can hold onto with the camera, steady it well, and squeeeeeeze the shutter. Nice and easy finger pressure...since exposures are usually in the 1/60 second range or so. No problem, but you do need to carefully squeeeeeeze the shutter.

When I learned wet plate collodion photography one of the things my mentor taught me was the if you cant see a good picture on your ground glass you wont make a good photograph. It sounds so utterly simple, rather stupid statement but it is fact and it is all too true. Now, your viewscreen is your 'ground glass' and as you view the coin, but before you take the picture, really work it around...watch that screen like a movie, and you will quickly see how in some aspects the coin looks like turd and in other aspects it just sings out with luster and detail. You need to work this into how your finally set up the image series.

take lots of pictures pixels are free its not like in the olden days and youre burning through Kodacolor-X. Maybe you go back and do it all again but sooner or later you find the perfect combination of light angle, coin angle, compositon...when it all says "this is the picture": and then you go to your photoscape and size it to like 500X500, circle crop, add the black background. Now, if you need any tweaking, contrasts, brighness, go to PHOTOS and bring up FIX and do that. Now, go photobucket, upload, and here, and cut and paste thats all it takes.

derryb · September 6, 2011 12:45AM

<< What I've been idly wondering is if there was some sort of gadgetry that would allow one to hook a camera and stand up to the computer, set the lights just so, and then use the monitor as a viewfinder, with mouse tools to zoom in and out and activate the shutter? >>

Using your computer monitor as a live camera preview is called "tethering." A lot of the newer,better cameras offer it. I would visit a place like Ritz Camera and get a demo and get answers to your other questions concerning computer control of the camera.

blu62vette · September 6, 2011 12:48AM

I have the feature in my Nikon and do not use it. I find my eye to be better and the sensor is so touchy there is always shake. I do tether my camera so I see my images as I take them.

mgoodm3 · September 6, 2011 12:52AM

I would invest in infrastructure first: camera, copystand.

mrearlygold · September 6, 2011 12:58AM

lcoopie · September 6, 2011 1:20AM

I bought a copy stand 4 years ago

ebay

that I have been happy with

derryb · September 6, 2011 1:31AM

<< I bought a copy stand 4 years ago

ebay

that I have been happy with >>

I like it. is it sturdy (no vibration) and is it easy to get camera lens parallel to base's surface?

ormandh · September 6, 2011 2:03AM

Do you have a tripod? If so, you may be able to retro a platform underneath the camera lens to photograph small objects such as coins. The camera is not so important as long as your light source is good and you have a stable anchoring device to hold the camera.

You would be better off using a copystand, but it does make the process much more appealing, especially when you are taking photographs of many, many coins at any given time and you want to be consistent with the results.
My opinion is that you would be better off spending the money for a good setup. The camera is important, but the results that you get from any camera should be consistent. Lighting and stability is where you should focus your $$$.

FYI. I do not consider myself a photographer, but I have spent $15,000 on equipment(lenses, camera bodies, lights, etc.....) and am still not happy with the results I have. To be honest with you, you can definitely spend a couple of hundred dollars on a cheap setup and get similar results for your photos and not be out of pocket. I have found that technique is much more important than the equipment used. BUT, you must spend some money to get a desirable result.

photog · September 6, 2011 3:04AM

<< I would invest in infrastructure first: camera, copystand. >>

And the camera doesn't have to be spectacular - I use quite an old body (they run about $200 used - I am a BIG fan of gently used equipment from B&H or KEH; I trust their assessment of used gear and have saved a ton of cash over the years buying through them) and a very nice lens. If you go the DSLR route, the lens really trumps the body.

lordmarcovan · September 6, 2011 3:31AM

Steve Beverly ("sbeverly") has generously offered me the gift of a Bogen Professional Copystand. Wow. I have no idea what that is in any more than the most basic sense, but it sounds great to me. Free copystand is better than no copystand, and from what I understand, that's better than your basic model?

Camerawise, there is only my old boat-anchor sized Sony Mavica (which I haven't used in a long time), and Ladymarcovan's more compact and modern Canon Powershot A560 point-and-shoot, which does pretty much everything the Mavica does and more, in one-third the size and a fraction of the weight. (I don't understand half of its settings, though.) I don't know if either of these is suitable to begin with- the Mavica is showing its age and is probably obsolete now, I realize. Both have macro and video capability, of course. I know Mr. Goodman recommends a digital SLR in his book, but I'm a poor man and have balked at throwing down largish sums to enter an arena with which I am totally unfamiliar.

I have a couple of gooseneck desk lamps and a small, cheap tabletop tripod, but my attempts at coin pictures with that big beast of a Mavica mounted on it were laughable, to say the least. I couldn't angle the camera downward properly and the legs of the tripod created shadows, so I gave up in disgust. I've wanted a copystand for a long time but didn't know how to shop for one. But now it looks like I'm getting one, gratis, so there's that, at least. (Thanks again, Steve!)

"Tethering", huh? Thanks. Half the battle is knowing the right terminology, I guess. (Until not very long ago, I would refer to a shutter release switch as "one of those thumb-trigger thingies"!) I definitely wanna look into tethering. It will give me some of the same feeling of control I have with my current scanner setup, but with a tethered camera I'll be much more versatile, naturally.

messydesk · September 6, 2011 3:53AM

At $75, a Canon Powershot A800 will get you what you need, but no tethering. Other cameras in the $75-150 price range may have more features, but the Canon focuses closer at maximum optical zoom than any of them by quite a bit. Not sure why Canon hasn't blocked this feature from their cheapest camera.

mgoodm3 · September 6, 2011 3:56AM

It all depends upon how much you want to spend. As photog suggested, you can get a nice used dSLR from KEH for a pretty low price - about $400 for a body and macro lens. I buy lots of stuff from KEH also.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 6, 2011 5:27AM

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for those interested i did see 3 main software titles at nikon associated with tethering/editing

Camera Control Pro 2

ViewNX 2

Capture NX2

if you would like more here is the link to the page
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lcoopie · September 6, 2011 5:37AM

I was using capture nx2 for a while
It was very unstable
I moved to lightroom
A vast improvement
And you can shoot tethered with lightroom 3

rmpsrpms · September 6, 2011 5:48AM

I could not get CaptureNX2 to work well at all. Crashed my PC. Camera Control Pro 2 works well but is very expensive. ControlMyNikon is cheap and works pretty well, not as full-featured as CCP2 but for ten bucks how can you go wrong. Buy a used D90 body on eBay and mount a 105/4 Micro-Nikkor with PN11 and you have a near world-class setup for <$500.

blu62vette · September 6, 2011 5:50AM

Last I checked Control my Nikon does not work on MAC's, maybe that has changed.

Edit: typo, meant MAC

rmpsrpms · September 6, 2011 5:53AM

It works fine on my old Pentium4 running WinXP SP2

blu62vette · September 6, 2011 5:56AM

<< It works fine on my old Pentium4 running WinXP SP2 >>

I edited my post, just a small typo....

messydesk · September 6, 2011 6:18AM

Just looked at the manual for your Canon A560. With the lens maximally zoomed to the telephoto end and macro turned on, you should be able to focus to 30 cm. There's some caveat about having to set the ISO to AUTO, which I don't typically recommend, and no indication as to what the focus range is if you pick ISO 80. Anyway, at this distance with the lens at the maximum focal length, you should get an image of a dime that is 740 pixels in diameter, and a silver dollar 1575 pixels in diameter. Neither fills your viewfinder, but if all you want is web-friendly pictures without having to spend any more money, it sounds like you're already in business. Figure out how to use this setup competently before you invest in other stuff that you're admitting you don't know much about. A more complex camera setup will just leave you that much more bewildered at first.

lordmarcovan · September 6, 2011 8:59AM

<< Just looked at the manual for your Canon A560. With the lens maximally zoomed to the telephoto end and macro turned on, you should be able to focus to 30 cm. There's some caveat about having to set the ISO to AUTO, which I don't typically recommend, and no indication as to what the focus range is if you pick ISO 80. Anyway, at this distance with the lens at the maximum focal length, you should get an image of a dime that is 740 pixels in diameter, and a silver dollar 1575 pixels in diameter. Neither fills your viewfinder, but if all you want is web-friendly pictures without having to spend any more money, it sounds like you're already in business. Figure out how to use this setup competently before you invest in other stuff that you're admitting you don't know much about. A more complex camera setup will just leave you that much more bewildered at first. >>

Your last two sentences are probably spot-on. Thank you.

What does ISO stand for?

Quite a bit of the other hardware/software discussions have flown right over my head. Not miles over it- I grasp a word here and there- but I've got a long, long way to go before I can talk the talk, much less walk the walk.

mingot · September 6, 2011 9:28AM

<< What does ISO stand for? >>

International Organization for Standardization.

Which probably isn't helpful.

This might be, though

(First few paragraphs from Wikipedia on film speed):

Film speed is the measure of a photographic film's sensitivity to light, determined by sensitometry and measured on various numerical scales, the most recent being the ISO system.

A closely related ISO system is used to measure the sensitivity of digital imaging systems.

Relatively insensitive film, with a correspondingly lower speed index requires more exposure to light to produce the same image density as a more sensitive film, and is thus commonly termed a slow film. Highly sensitive films are correspondingly termed fast films.

In both digital and film photography, the reduction of exposure corresponding to use of higher sensitivities generally leads to reduced image quality (via coarser film grain or higher image noise of other types). In short, the higher the sensitivity, the grainier the image will be.

lordmarcovan · September 6, 2011 11:52AM

Thanks.

Oh, BTW, if my camera is tethered, is there a way to set it up so the pictures will transfer directly to my hard drive instead of me having to fiddle with the SD card every time? Because that's a pain. Right now with the scanner, my scans go directly to my photo software right here on the desktop.

With the Mavica I had the little discs (annoying but workable), and with my wife's camera I have the card, but because her USB card reader is poorly designed (the plastic part is too wide to plug into our main computer's front USB port because of the trim around it), I have to take the card to my laptop and transfer from there to a flash drive that WILL plug into the main computer. (My photo software is on this desktop machine, and our modem- I never connect the laptop to the Net). Nor does the cable to her camera plug into this computer (yes, it's time for an upgrade to our main desktop computer, as this one is dying, but that's gonna cost more money).

rmpsrpms · September 6, 2011 1:00PM

All my cameras "look" like a drive to my PC when I plug them in with the USB cable. So all the pictures on the card can be downloaded to the hard drive easily. I've configured the tethering software so when I take a picture while tethered it automatically opens a viewer, downloads the picture, and deletes it from the camera. Very convenient.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 6, 2011 1:33PM

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i just tested some of the software for my d90 "tethered" and i was able to have the images go directly to my pc.

if you have the live view where you can see the coin large enough and clear enough on your monitor/tv you can just "snip" the image for the obv/rev and copy paste to paint or whatever, very very quick.
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i'll be working with this much more to figure out if it is my new method
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messydesk · September 6, 2011 2:25PM

With your point and shoot, it will either act as a USB drive or take pictures, but not both at the same time, so you'll have to attach it to the PC only when you want to transfer the images.

fiveNdime · September 7, 2011 5:15AM

what are the advantages of a copy stand over a nice tripod?

i have this used camera for sale(trade

)
coolpix camera

also comes a wide/fish eye lens and a few accessories.

PM if intrested.
i have not taken any coin pictures, but it takes good closeups.
i do not know if it can be tethered.

have not used it since i got a canon DSLR.

messydesk · September 7, 2011 6:01AM

<< what are the advantages of a copy stand over a nice tripod? >>

A copy stand is made for holding the camera still while shooting straight down at something that is typically flat and parallel to the camera, like a coin, manuscript, or photo. It is also not meant to be terribly portable or used outside of a studio of some sort.

A tripod is much more versatile and portable, and can be used like a copy stand. It just isn't as good at being a copy stand as a copy stand is. To use a tripod like a copy stand, you have to lean it over a table where your coin is, extend one of the legs longer than the other two, so that the camera is over the table and not the tripod legs, face the camera downward, and hope that everything is stable and well-balanced enough to take a decent picture. For a lightweight point and shoot, this isn't much of a problem. With a DSLR, this can get to be a rather tippy setup.

Any camera with a tripod mounting hole will mount on either a tripod or copy stand.

Fropa · September 7, 2011 12:04PM

<< I bought a copy stand 4 years ago

ebay

that I have been happy with >>

How much weight will this copy stand handle? I have a Nikon D200, Nikon 18-200 lens (Want to get a micro lens) and a Canon 500D close-up lens. This copy stand is a great price if it will hold my camera steady.

lcoopie · September 7, 2011 12:34PM

<< 

<< I bought a copy stand 4 years ago

ebay

that I have been happy with >>

How much weight will this copy stand handle? I have a Nikon D200, Nikon 18-200 lens (Want to get a micro lens) and a Canon 500D close-up lens. This copy stand is a great price if it will hold my camera steady. >>

IMO it's quite sturdy

BaseballAbs · September 7, 2011 2:10PM

Ambro51 that is a nice shot.

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