I have a PCGS 66 Ike of a different year but thought this was a clean one for the grade. Does mine have annealing marks too? Admittingly, it is tough for me to tell the difference but interested in learning! Thanks
<< <i>I have a PCGS 66 Ike of a different year but thought this was a clean one for the grade. Does mine have annealing marks too? Admittingly, it is tough for me to tell the difference but interested in learning! >>
It's nice for the date and the annealing marks appear subdued but all the chicken scratches around the periphery on both the obverse and reverse were on the planchet when it was struck; probably from annealing.
Constantine (did you know Mark Twain used your name in a magic incantation in one of his books? Quoth the Conniticut youth trying to save his life whilst caught up in a time-warp in King Arthur's Court, "Constantinopolitanisherdudlesaghpfeifennmachergeselfshaft!!!" as he threw gun powder into the fire - sorry, couldn't figure a way to make this comment PCGS US Coin relevent except maybe as a lead in to toning? Translates to "Constantinople bag pipe company, Twain knew some German, LOL),
Your Ike is quite clean of heavy anealing chatter, not atypical for a 71-D. But look between the I and B of LIBERTY and you'll see the fine chatter close to the rim cladking explained so well. Also, somewhere in LIBERTY I think there is a heavier ding smack up against a letter and oriented so it could not have been caused by another Ike.
In stark contrast, look through a small pile of 71-D's and you will run into some "Proof Planchet" examples, some of which have no chatter of any kind, none, while some others have deminimus chicken scratches, maybe because not all the clad proof planchets turned over to Denver for their use in 1971 by the S-Mint received their full burnishing/polishing treatment(s). The attribution criteria, by the way, for this Proof Planchet Variety is are ...1) no annealing chatter, ...2) advanced die state (this takes fresh polished dies out of the picture), and ...3) genuine proof-like reflectivity uniformly present on both sides including high relief surfaces (which are incuse in the die and thus protected from polishing). Advertisement: see Chapter 21. Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
I forgot to mention that your Ike also has fine planchet striations. These are best seen where strike pressure is lowest, at high relief on the central devices. Your Ike has striations running north-south on both sides, as expected since when present on both sides the striations are always congruent. The N-S orientation, is purely accidental, of course, as there is no relation between the direction of the striations on the clad strip (almost certainly longitudinal) and the orientatio of the struck images on the coin.
My explanation for planchet striations is simple, they come when the tightly wound massive coil of clad strip unwinds a bit (only the outer layers) when the restraining bands are cut. If yoiu've ever trucked these heavy coils and watched them act almost alive when their bands are cut, you know what I'm talking about.
In other words, as the coil unwinds slightly, the wrappings slide against each other so dust and other particulates score both sides of the strip except for the most outer layer which is scored on only its inner side for its circumference, and possibly the inner most layer sugject to un-winding. Thus explaining the 10% +/- of Ikes with planchet striations that are striated on only one side.
My Group literally laughs out loud whenever I mention this thinking, they prefer an origin in strip cleaning (which can be very rough prior to coiling. I should fire them all for such rude insubordination but they'd only laugh at that, too.
My notion, however, is a better explanation for the marked variation in the length of and oft-seen constantly changing depth of the individual striations which beg a highly localized origin such as an irregular piece of metal dust alternately bull-dozing and rolling, gouging both touching/moving adjacent coil layers.
So there. . . Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
I guess my question is- would annealing marks preclude the coin from making MS-70? If so, they should be considered on all MS grades, IMHO.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>I forgot to mention that your Ike also has fine planchet striations. These are best seen where strike pressure is lowest, at high relief on the central devices. Your Ike has striations running north-south on both sides, as expected since when present on both sides the striations are always congruent. The N-S orientation, is purely accidental, of course, as there is no relation between the direction of the striations on the clad strip (almost certainly longitudinal) and the orientatio of the struck images on the coin.
My explanation for planchet striations is simple, they come when the tightly wound massive coil of clad strip unwinds a bit (only the outer layers) when the restraining bands are cut. If yoiu've ever trucked these heavy coils and watched them act almost alive when their bands are cut, you know what I'm talking about.
In other words, as the coil unwinds slightly, the wrappings slide against each other so dust and other particulates score both sides of the strip except for the most outer layer which is scored on only its inner side for its circumference, and possibly the inner most layer sugject to un-winding. Thus explaining the 10% +/- of Ikes with planchet striations that are striated on only one side.
My Group literally laughs out loud whenever I mention this thinking, they prefer an origin in strip cleaning (which can be very rough prior to coiling. I should fire them all for such rude insubordination but they'd only laugh at that, too.
My notion, however, is a better explanation for the marked variation in the length of and oft-seen constantly changing depth of the individual striations which beg a highly localized origin such as an irregular piece of metal dust alternately bull-dozing and rolling, gouging both touching/moving adjacent coil layers.
So there. . . Rob >>
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Lee, great photo. I have no idea of the origin of this pattern of congruent striped toning which is quite common on Bicentennial Ikes.
Planchet striations are scored groves on the coin (ie, incuse, a good way to distinguish them from die abrasions when working with a 'scope), not the toning you show so well in your photo. Don't know if the toning and scoring is related, just don't know.
Pure guess? maybe the striped toning is due to some chemical that's brushed on the strip? Like last-stage coarse stationary brushes through which the clad strip runs to remove any large particulates before being coiled? And maybe the brushes were contaminated?
What ever mud one throws on the wall has to account for the congruencey of the striping.
Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
I have no idea of the origin of this pattern of congruent striped toning which is quite common on Bicentennial Ikes.
C'mon Ezerman - you know we've been through that numerous times. We even have pictures of it in operation. They are from the final finish surface grinding/cleeaning of the clad strip metal after it is sized to correct thickness - usually by abrasive belt, but other media such as industrial wire wheels could be used. Any fine micro- grooves left in the surface after coining will be the first areas to corrode/tarnish (on a small level obviously), and therefore show the surface grinding footprint.
Likely the deep marks were on the planchet before striking and did not smooth out when struck. I have seen this before, just not to such a great degree. Since the marks were mint made so to speak the grading service ignored them when assigning a grade. I guess they did not market grade this one.
<< <i>Constantine (did you know Mark Twain used your name in a magic incantation in one of his books? Quoth the Conniticut youth trying to save his life whilst caught up in a time-warp in King Arthur's Court, "Constantinopolitanisherdudlesaghpfeifennmachergeselfshaft!!!" as he threw gun powder into the fire - sorry, couldn't figure a way to make this comment PCGS US Coin relevent except maybe as a lead in to toning? Translates to "Constantinople bag pipe company, Twain knew some German, LOL),
Your Ike is quite clean of heavy anealing chatter, not atypical for a 71-D. But look between the I and B of LIBERTY and you'll see the fine chatter close to the rim cladking explained so well. Also, somewhere in LIBERTY I think there is a heavier ding smack up against a letter and oriented so it could not have been caused by another Ike.
In stark contrast, look through a small pile of 71-D's and you will run into some "Proof Planchet" examples, some of which have no chatter of any kind, none, while some others have deminimus chicken scratches, maybe because not all the clad proof planchets turned over to Denver for their use in 1971 by the S-Mint received their full burnishing/polishing treatment(s). The attribution criteria, by the way, for this Proof Planchet Variety is are ...1) no annealing chatter, ...2) advanced die state (this takes fresh polished dies out of the picture), and ...3) genuine proof-like reflectivity uniformly present on both sides including high relief surfaces (which are incuse in the die and thus protected from polishing). Advertisement: see Chapter 21. Rob >>
Rob & cladking, thank you for the detailed explanation and the review of my Ike! I do see the peripheral chatter and feel like I have a better understanding of the source now. And no, the Mark Twain reference of Constantine is a new one for me.
Comments
<< <i>I have a PCGS 66 Ike of a different year but thought this was a clean one for the grade. Does mine have annealing marks too? Admittingly, it is tough for me to tell the difference but interested in learning! >>
It's nice for the date and the annealing marks appear subdued but all the chicken scratches
around the periphery on both the obverse and reverse were on the planchet when it was
struck; probably from annealing.
Your Ike is quite clean of heavy anealing chatter, not atypical for a 71-D. But look between the I and B of LIBERTY and you'll see the fine chatter close to the rim cladking explained so well. Also, somewhere in LIBERTY I think there is a heavier ding smack up against a letter and oriented so it could not have been caused by another Ike.
In stark contrast, look through a small pile of 71-D's and you will run into some "Proof Planchet" examples, some of which have no chatter of any kind, none, while some others have deminimus chicken scratches, maybe because not all the clad proof planchets turned over to Denver for their use in 1971 by the S-Mint received their full burnishing/polishing treatment(s). The attribution criteria, by the way, for this Proof Planchet Variety is are
...1) no annealing chatter,
...2) advanced die state (this takes fresh polished dies out of the picture), and
...3) genuine proof-like reflectivity uniformly present on both sides including high relief surfaces (which are incuse in the die and thus protected from polishing). Advertisement: see Chapter 21. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
My explanation for planchet striations is simple, they come when the tightly wound massive coil of clad strip unwinds a bit (only the outer layers) when the restraining bands are cut. If yoiu've ever trucked these heavy coils and watched them act almost alive when their bands are cut, you know what I'm talking about.
In other words, as the coil unwinds slightly, the wrappings slide against each other so dust and other particulates score both sides of the strip except for the most outer layer which is scored on only its inner side for its circumference, and possibly the inner most layer sugject to un-winding. Thus explaining the 10% +/- of Ikes with planchet striations that are striated on only one side.
My Group literally laughs out loud whenever I mention this thinking, they prefer an origin in strip cleaning (which can be very rough prior to coiling. I should fire them all for such rude insubordination but they'd only laugh at that, too.
My notion, however, is a better explanation for the marked variation in the length of and oft-seen constantly changing depth of the individual striations which beg a highly localized origin such as an irregular piece of metal dust alternately bull-dozing and rolling, gouging both touching/moving adjacent coil layers.
So there. . . Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>I forgot to mention that your Ike also has fine planchet striations. These are best seen where strike pressure is lowest, at high relief on the central devices. Your Ike has striations running north-south on both sides, as expected since when present on both sides the striations are always congruent. The N-S orientation, is purely accidental, of course, as there is no relation between the direction of the striations on the clad strip (almost certainly longitudinal) and the orientatio of the struck images on the coin.
My explanation for planchet striations is simple, they come when the tightly wound massive coil of clad strip unwinds a bit (only the outer layers) when the restraining bands are cut. If yoiu've ever trucked these heavy coils and watched them act almost alive when their bands are cut, you know what I'm talking about.
In other words, as the coil unwinds slightly, the wrappings slide against each other so dust and other particulates score both sides of the strip except for the most outer layer which is scored on only its inner side for its circumference, and possibly the inner most layer sugject to un-winding. Thus explaining the 10% +/- of Ikes with planchet striations that are striated on only one side.
My Group literally laughs out loud whenever I mention this thinking, they prefer an origin in strip cleaning (which can be very rough prior to coiling. I should fire them all for such rude insubordination but they'd only laugh at that, too.
My notion, however, is a better explanation for the marked variation in the length of and oft-seen constantly changing depth of the individual striations which beg a highly localized origin such as an irregular piece of metal dust alternately bull-dozing and rolling, gouging both touching/moving adjacent coil layers.
So there. . . Rob >>
The name is LEE!
Planchet striations are scored groves on the coin (ie, incuse, a good way to distinguish them from die abrasions when working with a 'scope), not the toning you show so well in your photo. Don't know if the toning and scoring is related, just don't know.
Pure guess? maybe the striped toning is due to some chemical that's brushed on the strip? Like last-stage coarse stationary brushes through which the clad strip runs to remove any large particulates before being coiled? And maybe the brushes were contaminated?
What ever mud one throws on the wall has to account for the congruencey of the striping.
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>great thread- some helpful information as to grading Ikes appropriately >>
You're telling me, wow. These guys know their stuff.
Check this Ike out;
C'mon Ezerman - you know we've been through that numerous times. We even have pictures of it in operation. They are from the final finish surface grinding/cleeaning of the clad strip metal after it is sized to correct thickness - usually by abrasive belt, but other media such as industrial wire wheels could be used. Any fine micro- grooves left in the surface after coining will be the first areas to corrode/tarnish (on a small level obviously), and therefore show the surface grinding footprint.
Likely the deep marks were on the planchet before striking
and did not smooth out when struck. I have seen this before, just not to such a great degree.
Since the marks were mint made so to speak the grading service ignored them when assigning a grade.
I guess they did not market grade this one.
krueger
Andy, can't give up my theory completely but your rather general concept can't be disproved so I have to yield (grumble, grumble).
But my theory is so clean, so specific, so beautiful. . . maybe if I made some measurements????
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>Constantine (did you know Mark Twain used your name in a magic incantation in one of his books? Quoth the Conniticut youth trying to save his life whilst caught up in a time-warp in King Arthur's Court, "Constantinopolitanisherdudlesaghpfeifennmachergeselfshaft!!!" as he threw gun powder into the fire - sorry, couldn't figure a way to make this comment PCGS US Coin relevent except maybe as a lead in to toning? Translates to "Constantinople bag pipe company, Twain knew some German, LOL),
Your Ike is quite clean of heavy anealing chatter, not atypical for a 71-D. But look between the I and B of LIBERTY and you'll see the fine chatter close to the rim cladking explained so well. Also, somewhere in LIBERTY I think there is a heavier ding smack up against a letter and oriented so it could not have been caused by another Ike.
In stark contrast, look through a small pile of 71-D's and you will run into some "Proof Planchet" examples, some of which have no chatter of any kind, none, while some others have deminimus chicken scratches, maybe because not all the clad proof planchets turned over to Denver for their use in 1971 by the S-Mint received their full burnishing/polishing treatment(s). The attribution criteria, by the way, for this Proof Planchet Variety is are
...1) no annealing chatter,
...2) advanced die state (this takes fresh polished dies out of the picture), and
...3) genuine proof-like reflectivity uniformly present on both sides including high relief surfaces (which are incuse in the die and thus protected from polishing). Advertisement: see Chapter 21. Rob >>
Rob & cladking, thank you for the detailed explanation and the review of my Ike! I do see the peripheral chatter and feel like I have a better understanding of the source now. And no, the Mark Twain reference of Constantine is a new one for me.
<< <i>maybe if I made some measurements???? >>
I'm gonna get you...
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE