Does the average coin dealer make money selling coins?

RYK · August 1, 2011 4:06AM

We all know that the superstar coin dealers make a ton of money. But what about the average dealer? I saw a lot of these this past week in St. Louis. Not many (except the dude selling Chinese modern bullion) gave off the vibe of being very successful.

Does the average coin dealer make money? Is coin dealing a hobby for a lot of these folks?

Bankerbob56 · August 1, 2011 4:06AM

NO QUESTION! Otherwise they wouldnt be in business very long!

Next Question.

dollarsandcents · August 1, 2011 4:11AM

I always assumed that people went into business to lose money, and that businesses that have been in opperation the longest have lost the most money.

JamesM · August 1, 2011 4:19AM

I can tell you 100%, thinking you can “judge a book by its cover” in the coin world is about the worst thing you can do.

CoinRaritiesOnline · August 1, 2011 4:20AM

I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even.

questor54 · August 1, 2011 4:21AM

Yes.

RedTiger · August 1, 2011 4:24AM

Coins are like some other industries, such as real estate, or acting. The average income is low, the median income is low, the top 5% make good money, the next 20% get the free set of steak knives (movie reference). Those that report "coin dealer" or similar as their occupation on their tax return make reasonable money. Those that have a day job, make some money, some more than others, but all these part-time dealers bring the average income numbers way down (it is similar with part-time or aspiring actors, part-time or aspiring real estate agents).

Banemorth · August 1, 2011 4:25AM

<< I always assumed that people went into business to lose money, and that businesses that have been in opperation the longest have lost the most money. >>

That only applies to the government.

crypto79 · August 1, 2011 5:03AM

<< 

<< I always assumed that people went into business to lose money, and that businesses that have been in opperation the longest have lost the most money. >>

That only applies to the government. >>

That is kind of a retarded statement; First of all the Government primary mission is public service and not profit and if it only provided services to the people who could pay top dollar to provide a cushion of sustainable revenue the majority of the country wouldn't have very much. Small town America for the most part is all on well fare if not completely on a personal level they most certainly on a community level. The avg/majority of tax payers don't come close carrying their own weight for what they consume?

291fifth · August 1, 2011 5:15AM

Many of the brick and mortar dealers in my area have been in business for decades.

Coin Finder · August 1, 2011 5:17AM

Most dealers I know make the money on the bullion market and 90% deals. The collector coin markets for them still make them money but revenue comes in waves, peaks and valleys and really cannot be relied upon to make the rent.

CertifiedGoldCoins · August 1, 2011 5:25AM

With government tax people as partners, selling anything for a living is not easy, and it can take years of hard work to succeed. But it does beat working for someone else for a lifetime.

coindeuce · August 1, 2011 5:26AM

As an"average" dealer, I can attest to the bread and butter market currently being supported by "junk" silver, bullion coin trading, and bulk wholesale deals of the "chaff"(bags of Lincoln wheats, Warnicks, average circ. silver dollars) and novelty items that appeal to impulse buyers. Coin-coins, as the slang goes, are not in big demand among the Joe Sixpacks.

questor54 · August 1, 2011 5:51AM

<< 

<< 

<< I always assumed that people went into business to lose money, and that businesses that have been in opperation the longest have lost the most money. >>

That only applies to the government. >>

That is kind of a retarded statement; First of all the Government primary mission is public service and not profit and if it only provided services to the people who could pay top dollar to provide a cushion of sustainable revenue the majority of the country wouldn't have very much. Small town America for the most part is all on well fare if not completely on a personal level they most certainly on a community level. The avg/majority of tax payers don't come close carrying their own weight for what they consume? >>

The government loses your money. It has no money of it's own.

questor54 · August 1, 2011 5:55AM

<< As an"average" dealer, I can attest to the bread and butter market currently being supported by "junk" silver, bullion coin trading, and bulk wholesale deals of the "chaff"(bags of Lincoln wheats, Warnicks, average circ. silver dollars) and novelty items that appeal to impulse buyers. Coin-coins, as the slang goes, are not in big demand among the Joe Sixpacks. >>

Joe Sixpack? Wow. And people tell me I am a snob.

Seriously, I always did think only cultured people should collect coin-coins, so if Joe Sixpack is not buying them, perhaps that is as it should be. They can't appreciate them anyway.

RobTom · August 1, 2011 6:01AM

<< We all know that the superstar coin dealers make a ton of money. But what about the average dealer? I saw a lot of these this past week in St. Louis. Not many (except the dude selling Chinese modern bullion) gave off the vibe of being very successful.

Does the average coin dealer make money? Is coin dealing a hobby for a lot of these folks? >>

There are a few brick and mortar coin shops in my area. All make the bulk of their money buying and selling bullion and bullion related items.
These shops have been around for many years, so I assume the owners are turning a profit.
Since the gold boom, one of the owners has opened several branch stores, geared mostly to buying gold & silver.
There is a regularly scheduled coin show by me that hold 2 bourses per month.
The dealers there are clearly part-timers.
Tables cost about $50-$75.
The items offered range from junk silver and gold bullion coins, to stamps and FDCs, and to common and some really nice numismatic items.
Many are former (or still) collectors who got into dealing to sell off their duplicates and bullion and trying to make a few bucks off the buy/sell spread on gold & silver.
Many are covering their table fee and making maybe a few bucks in net profit. Many of the dealers there enjoy schmoozing with the other dealers and the regular show-goers (like me).

bidask · August 1, 2011 6:10AM

<< We all know that the superstar coin dealers make a ton of money. But what about the average dealer? I saw a lot of these this past week in St. Louis. Not many (except the dude selling Chinese modern bullion) gave off the vibe of being very successful.

Does the average coin dealer make money? Is coin dealing a hobby for a lot of these folks? >>

I sold some coins to the dealer in chinese coins .....

He paid me about 70% of retail and I still tripled my money from purchases made about 2 1/2 years ago!

RYK · August 1, 2011 6:23AM

<< 

<< We all know that the superstar coin dealers make a ton of money. But what about the average dealer? I saw a lot of these this past week in St. Louis. Not many (except the dude selling Chinese modern bullion) gave off the vibe of being very successful.

Does the average coin dealer make money? Is coin dealing a hobby for a lot of these folks? >>

I sold some coins to the dealer in chinese coins .....

He paid me about 70% of retail and I still tripled my money from purchases made about 2 1/2 years ago! >>

That guy is going to own Heritage in five years.

greatnortherncoin · August 1, 2011 6:26AM

im sure if they pay what people want 100% of retail they should do ok,

BAJJERFAN · August 1, 2011 6:34AM

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

To net $80K after taxes at 5% profit margin, you'd need about $1.6 million in sales. Then again it might be equally surprising how much volume some dealers do.

Bear · August 1, 2011 6:34AM

I believe that many small dealers make a living, but for the really big money, you have to hustle for

and have an effective up to date website to bring in the truly necessary volume of business, as well

as the cash flow.

joebb21 · August 1, 2011 6:58AM

to make a $60,000 salary at 10% markup on inventory you must buy $600,000 worth of coins

unless some deal falls on your lap, the margin is much smaller (5-6%) and the dealer must buy $1,000,000 worth of coins.

How many average dealers do $1,000,000 worth of business a year?

CoinRaritiesOnline · August 1, 2011 7:07AM

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

To net $80K after taxes at 5% profit margin, you'd need about $1.6 million in sales. Then again it might be equally surprising how much volume some dealers do. >>

Actually, that would be $80,000 in gross profit dollars, before taxes, using your numbers. From that all the expenses of the business must be taken out.

It might be closer to twice those sales to make an income of $80k (which is a very good living, obviously).

$3.2 million in sales comes out to over $60,000 per WEEK in coin sales. Every week. Not easy.

mozin · August 1, 2011 7:15AM

<< ...
Does the average coin dealer make money? Is coin dealing a hobby for a lot of these folks? >>

Not hardly. Yes, mostly a hobby. Many small dealers like to think of themselves as big time businessmen.

MrEureka · August 1, 2011 7:25AM

How many average dealers do $1,000,000 worth of business a year?

It depends on how you define "average". Anyway, you might be surprised at how many dealers do $1 million a month, and how many do it in an average week. Hey, it's not like money is rare.

Bjorn · August 1, 2011 7:37AM

<< to make a $60,000 salary at 10% markup on inventory you must buy $600,000 worth of coins

unless some deal falls on your lap, the margin is much smaller (5-6%) and the dealer must buy $1,000,000 worth of coins.

How many average dealers do $1,000,000 worth of business a year? >>

One in my old home town often bought and sold around $250,000 to $500,000 a week... and they have since expanded!

Lakesammman · August 1, 2011 7:41AM

I'd like to hear from the "above average" dealers as to how long it took them to build their businesses.

Developing a client base that trusts you is probably the biggest "barrier to entry".

JohnMaben · August 1, 2011 8:19AM

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

Huh? No barriers to entry??? Wow, we have a serious diifference of opinion there. In fact, I can't think of many businesses that have a higher barrier of entry than does the coin business. Just so we are clear, I am not talking about somemone that decides to "dabble" or make it a part time venture.... but if you plan on making it a full time venture and a livelihood be prepared to be 7 figure capitalized, already know who all the players are and have a long term relationship with them, understand marketing as it relates to coins, and have your employees lined up in advance because its the toughest business I've ever seen to hire the right people. Besides all that, no problem!

John

RYK · August 1, 2011 8:24AM

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

Huh? No barriers to entry??? Wow, we have a serious diifference of opinion there. In fact, I can't think of many businesses that have a higher barrier of entry than does the coin business. Just so we are clear, I am not talking about somemone that decides to "dabble" or make it a part time venture.... but if you plan on making it a full time venture and a livelihood be prepared to be 7 figure capitalized, already know who all the players are and have a long term relationship with them, understand marketing as it relates to coins, and have your employees lined up in advance because its the toughest business I've ever seen to hire the right people. Besides all that, no problem!

John >>

I think that what Dave means is that anyone can decide to be a coin dealer without requiring a degree, a license, a physical plant, etc. In other words, I can decide tomorrow that I want to be a coin dealer and be up on running by the end of the day with an ebay store, an internet site, some ads on the BST, table reservations at local coin shows, etc. However, you cannot decide to be an interventional radiologist tomorrow and be up and running in practice. And neither of us can decide to be automobile manufacturers tomorrow and be up and running by the end of the day.

JohnMaben · August 1, 2011 8:30AM

<< 

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

Huh? No barriers to entry??? Wow, we have a serious diifference of opinion there. In fact, I can't think of many businesses that have a higher barrier of entry than does the coin business. Just so we are clear, I am not talking about somemone that decides to "dabble" or make it a part time venture.... but if you plan on making it a full time venture and a livelihood be prepared to be 7 figure capitalized, already know who all the players are and have a long term relationship with them, understand marketing as it relates to coins, and have your employees lined up in advance because its the toughest business I've ever seen to hire the right people. Besides all that, no problem!

John >>

I think that what Dave means is that anyone can decide to be a coin dealer without requiring a degree, a license, a physical plant, etc. In other words, I can decide tomorrow that I want to be a coin dealer and be up on running by the end of the day with an ebay store, an internet site, some ads on the BST, table reservations at local coin shows, etc. However, you cannot decide to be an interventional radiologist tomorrow and be up and running in practice. And neither of us can decide to be automobile manufacturers tomorrow and be up and running by the end of the day. >>

Point well taken. However, at the end of the day I can become all of those things you mention if I have the desire, time, intelligence, and reasonable amount of money for education. You are correct in that anyone can set up a coin dealership in a day but 99.9% would fail. So, getting back to my point, if you wish to be a successful dealer IE profitable year after year, middle upper to upper income level, then the barrier to entry is ENORMOUS.

John

RYK · August 1, 2011 8:47AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

Huh? No barriers to entry??? Wow, we have a serious diifference of opinion there. In fact, I can't think of many businesses that have a higher barrier of entry than does the coin business. Just so we are clear, I am not talking about somemone that decides to "dabble" or make it a part time venture.... but if you plan on making it a full time venture and a livelihood be prepared to be 7 figure capitalized, already know who all the players are and have a long term relationship with them, understand marketing as it relates to coins, and have your employees lined up in advance because its the toughest business I've ever seen to hire the right people. Besides all that, no problem!

John >>

I think that what Dave means is that anyone can decide to be a coin dealer without requiring a degree, a license, a physical plant, etc. In other words, I can decide tomorrow that I want to be a coin dealer and be up on running by the end of the day with an ebay store, an internet site, some ads on the BST, table reservations at local coin shows, etc. However, you cannot decide to be an interventional radiologist tomorrow and be up and running in practice. And neither of us can decide to be automobile manufacturers tomorrow and be up and running by the end of the day. >>

Point well taken. However, at the end of the day I can become all of those things you mention if I have the desire, time, intelligence, and reasonable amount of money for education. You are correct in that anyone can set up a coin dealership in a day but 99.9% would fail. So, getting back to my point, if you wish to be a successful dealer IE profitable year after year, middle upper to upper income level, then the barrier to entry is ENORMOUS.

John >>

Point taken, too. Dave did not say that anyone can be successful as a coin dealer--just that anyone, with minimal effort, can give it a shot (on ebay, with a website, at local shows, etc) and quite a few seem to do so. You cannot say the same about a teacher, nurse, judge, or Fortune 500 CEO, all of which require a significant investment of time, as well as some combination of degree programs, licensure, working up ladders, political connections, luck, etc. In other words, I can give it a shot as a coin dealer tomorrow, but I cannot become CEO of GE or a municipal judge tomorrow, and perhaps time becomes one of the major barriers to doing all of these things.

bidask · August 1, 2011 8:50AM

What about being a coin broker....... ( IE bringing deals together) ?

No real money invested.....just great contacts....

CoinRaritiesOnline · August 1, 2011 8:52AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

Huh? No barriers to entry??? Wow, we have a serious diifference of opinion there. In fact, I can't think of many businesses that have a higher barrier of entry than does the coin business. Just so we are clear, I am not talking about somemone that decides to "dabble" or make it a part time venture.... but if you plan on making it a full time venture and a livelihood be prepared to be 7 figure capitalized, already know who all the players are and have a long term relationship with them, understand marketing as it relates to coins, and have your employees lined up in advance because its the toughest business I've ever seen to hire the right people. Besides all that, no problem!

John >>

I think that what Dave means is that anyone can decide to be a coin dealer without requiring a degree, a license, a physical plant, etc. In other words, I can decide tomorrow that I want to be a coin dealer and be up on running by the end of the day with an ebay store, an internet site, some ads on the BST, table reservations at local coin shows, etc. However, you cannot decide to be an interventional radiologist tomorrow and be up and running in practice. And neither of us can decide to be automobile manufacturers tomorrow and be up and running by the end of the day. >>

Point well taken. However, at the end of the day I can become all of those things you mention if I have the desire, time, intelligence, and reasonable amount of money for education. You are correct in that anyone can set up a

coin dealership in a day but 99.9% would fail. So, getting back to my point, if you wish to be a successful dealer IE profitable year after year, middle upper to upper income level, then the barrier to entry is ENORMOUS.

John >>

Point taken, too. Dave did not say that anyone can be successful as a coin dealer--just that anyone, with minimal effort, can give it a shot (on ebay, with a website, at local shows, etc) and quite a few seem to do so. You cannot say the same about a teacher, nurse, judge, or Fortune 500 CEO, all of which require a significant investment of time, as well as some combination of degree programs, licensure, working up ladders, political connections, luck, etc. In other words, I can give it a shot as a coin dealer tomorrow, but I cannot become CEO of GE or a municipal judge tomorrow, and perhaps time becomes one of the major barriers to doing all of these things. >>

I couldn't have said it better myself.

RYK · August 1, 2011 8:57AM

I only wanted to add, also to JM's point, that when I looked around the bourse at the coin show this weekend, I saw quite a few tables staffed by people and displaying inventory that gave the impression that:

1. The "average" dealer does not do as well as the Yaffees.

2. Anybody with a few crummy coins and a few hundred bucks can set up at a show (which really supports the "no barrier" argument).

TomB · August 1, 2011 9:07AM

<< 

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

To net $80K after taxes at 5% profit margin, you'd need about $1.6 million in sales. Then again it might be equally surprising how much volume some dealers do. >>

Actually, that would be $80,000 in gross profit dollars, before taxes, using your numbers. From that all the expenses of the business must be taken out.

It might be closer to twice those sales to make an income of $80k (which is a very good living, obviously).

$3.2 million in sales comes out to over $60,000 per WEEK in coin sales. Every week. Not easy. >>

I don't know how one would define "average" with respect to this question, but I think Dave's numbers for gross sales might be too low if you want to take home $80k on a 5% profit margin. There are some expenses associated with this business that don't always come to mind for folks who think about the hobby-industry, but they add up.

SUMORADA · August 1, 2011 9:10AM

What about the small time dealer who searchs for days and weeks to find raw top pop (50's to 80's ) modern type coins, has them graded and sells hem on the net?

any future in that?

Nic · August 1, 2011 9:21AM

No, he does not. The "average" dealer makes money when buying coins.

Time and talent apply to all professions.

Great thread! I think everyone is right so far ...

K

Spooly · August 1, 2011 9:25AM

I'm surprised we have as many coin dealers as we do. I thought 10 years ago e-bay would kill off most of the small and medium dealers. Because most collectors want retail money not dealer money for coins. Leaving just the high end dealers...... who really is going to buy a raw $50,000 coin off e-bay? PCGS, NGC and some other grading services made the internet market possible. Boy was I wrong.... e-bay and internet made small dealers bigger! The days of the crusty old table dealer only is over.

MrEureka · August 1, 2011 9:47AM

I'd like to hear from the "above average" dealers as to how long it took them to build their businesses. Developing a client base that trusts you is probably the biggest "barrier to entry".

Like the majority of my colleagues, I started young and with minimal capital. There were no significant "barriers to entry".

As for "barriers to success", there are many, but I'd put inexperience and ignorance at the top of the list.

MrEureka · August 1, 2011 10:02AM

Huh? No barriers to entry??? Wow, we have a serious diifference of opinion there. In fact, I can't think of many businesses that have a higher barrier of entry than does the coin business. Just so we are clear, I am not talking about someone that decides to "dabble" or make it a part time venture.... but if you plan on making it a full time venture and a livelihood be prepared to be 7 figure capitalized, already know who all the players are and have a long term relationship with them, understand marketing as it relates to coins, and have your employees lined up in advance because its the toughest business I've ever seen to hire the right people. Besides all that, no problem!

I guess if your point is that it would be very difficult for someone to come from another business jump into the numismatic A-League, I would have to agree. But it's hardly unusual for someone to start at a lower level and quickly build a good business.

MrEureka · August 1, 2011 10:04AM

The days of the crusty old table dealer only is over.

Uh oh.

Shamika · August 1, 2011 10:42AM

All I know is that SOMEBODY is making money in the coin biz.

wondercoin · August 1, 2011 10:49AM

As I tell my son Justin ... it is easy to do great and be successful in the coin biz. All you need is a good magnifying glass and twenty years experience.

Wondercoin

Nap · August 1, 2011 11:17AM

I have heard that being a successful coin dealer is somewhere between 'slaving for the man' and 'pimping' on the difficulty scale.

khayse · August 1, 2011 11:34AM

Pimpin ain't easy.

-Keith

BAJJERFAN · August 1, 2011 11:38AM

<< 

<< 

<< I think it is a serious question.

There are no barriers to entry in this business. Some folks in the hobby do consider it fun to set up at shows and deal coins.

If you actually figure out the volume of sales that a dealer has to do each year to make a living, I know some people would be quite surprised. Shocked even. >>

To net $80K after taxes at 5% profit margin, you'd need about $1.6 million in sales. Then again it might be equally surprising how much volume some dealers do. >>

Actually, that would be $80,000 in gross profit dollars, before taxes, using your numbers. From that all the expenses of the business must be taken out.

It might be closer to twice those sales to make an income of $80k (which is a very good living, obviously).

$3.2 million in sales comes out to over $60,000 per WEEK in coin sales. Every week. Not easy. >>

While I didn't state it as such, my calculation was an estimate of the sales you would need to get the equivalent of a take home pay of $80K from a "day" job. My assumption was that you would net 5% profit on your sales after all expenses. If you chose to keep your salary separate from the business, then you'd need a gross salary of about $120K to generate $80K net.

pennyannie · August 1, 2011 11:40AM

<< to make a $60,000 salary at 10% markup on inventory you must buy $600,000 worth of coins

unless some deal falls on your lap, the margin is much smaller (5-6%) and the dealer must buy $1,000,000 worth of coins.

How many average dealers do $1,000,000 worth of business a year? >>

A small B&M will make a lot more than 5 to 6%, you have to to make a living. A million in sales is about 3500 dollars a day on a 6 day week. That is a big daily number for most small businesses.

You have so many different scenarios with small dealers, i see some at most shows and they have the bulk of the coins they had at the last show, the show before that and the year before as well as the prior year.

pennyannie · August 1, 2011 11:58AM

<< I'm surprised we have as many coin dealers as we do. I thought 10 years ago e-bay would kill off most of the small and medium dealers. Because most collectors want retail money not dealer money for coins. Leaving just the high end dealers...... who really is going to buy a raw $50,000 coin off e-bay? PCGS, NGC and some other grading services made the internet market possible. Boy was I wrong.... e-bay and internet made small dealers bigger! The days of the crusty old table dealer only is over. >>

You have a large segment of society that puts off paying bills until after the due date, therefore they do not have the time to list it on ebay. They will be homeless before they recieve the payment. Some people are just lazy, and if they did not personally pay for the coins they are about the sell, they will just take what is offered. I have seen that time and time again.

I would love to see the how many coin dealers that opened the doors with 7 figures in the bank. I have some access to fairly big money but it would be cheaper for me to go to the bank before going that route. I doubt my banker would deposit 6 figures in my bank account if i told him tommorow i was going to become a coin dealer, and if i had 7 figures being a coin dealer would be way down the list.

SamByrd · August 1, 2011 1:12PM

yes most dealers make money selling coins. I would guess though that many if not most make 50k a year or less net/net. The vast majority of dealers are small B and M operations.
The few dealers I know anything about have another business in addition or a spouse who has a career.

pennyannie · August 1, 2011 1:23PM

One point worth noting here, a lot of coin deals are cash, not all cash has taxes paid on it. Before you get all worked up a lot of other small business is done in cash also. Things can seem a lot better when the uncle is not getting 30 percent or more.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · August 1, 2011 1:29PM

I think yes, but I don't think the average dealer will become wealthy from dealing coins.

For some, coin dealing is a yeoman pursuit that yields little or no profit.

Does the average coin dealer make money selling coins?

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