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A Question For Dealers Regarding Offers On Coins
This is something that I have always had a problem with. I see a coin, I love the coin, then I see the price and just have to walk away because I don't feel comfortable offering what I think the coin is worth and risk upsetting or offending said dealer with a "low ball" offer.
Here's an example.
I found a gorgeous coin. I love this coin on this dealer's website. Then I see the price of nearly $1,200.00 and figure well let's check out HA and a few other places to see what that coin has been bringing. HA shows same grade same year going for $333, $520, $500.
PCGS price guide says $500.
Yet I don't feel comfortable offering that amount when the dealer obviously values it at so much more. The coin DOES have exceptional eye appeal I will not deny that. Lovely toning, but an extra $700 for it?
How would you handle this situation if you were the buyer looking in? Make the offer?
How about if you were the dealer getting such a low offer on a coin you've priced so high?
Here's an example.
I found a gorgeous coin. I love this coin on this dealer's website. Then I see the price of nearly $1,200.00 and figure well let's check out HA and a few other places to see what that coin has been bringing. HA shows same grade same year going for $333, $520, $500.
PCGS price guide says $500.
Yet I don't feel comfortable offering that amount when the dealer obviously values it at so much more. The coin DOES have exceptional eye appeal I will not deny that. Lovely toning, but an extra $700 for it?
How would you handle this situation if you were the buyer looking in? Make the offer?
How about if you were the dealer getting such a low offer on a coin you've priced so high?
Justin From Jersey
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Drunner
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
www.brunkauctions.com
I really think $500 is fair I just checked Ebay and same year same grade:
Buy It Now: 345, 419
Recently Sold: 410, 420 (Both Best Offers)
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In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I had a very nice coin one time on the BST here. I paid up for it and was basically asking a price that was a slight loss. I had one or two folks that were kind enough to show me all previous auction listings. Then they asked what would be my price now (like they changed my mind)
I didn't care for how it was presented to me so I just told them they should have bought one of the others ones they pointed out
Edit, Sorry, I'm not a dealer so I guess I shouldn't have replied.
I really think some listers love their coins a lot more than I do.
One was a dealer asking 900 for a 400 dollar coin .. i sent in a offer of 450 ( 50 above price guide ) I thought ok reasonable he should make 10- 12 % on the sale ... The answer i got was DONT INSULT ME WITH THAT LOWBALL OFFER ... needless to say i didn't buy the coin or will ever buy anything from that dealer,
Second was a 2699 coin ... i saw in the research of the cert it last sold at the LB auction for 1800 ... i offered price guide of 2100 .. and finally came to terms at 2250 ... Good dealer and nice coin ...
Bottom line . make the offer and if he gets insulted and doesn't want to deal go somewhere else .. Theres always more coins from someone else who is rational
the money you save by making those offers = MORE COINS
But in general, I'd tread lightly before making a counteroffer that's not in the same ballpark as the listed price. In your case, I would probably not recommend a brutal counteroffer as your first move. Better to try something like, "That coin looks amazing but I can't see paying anywhere near the quoted price. If you have a lot of room, let's talk. Otherwise, thanks but no thanks." At that point, the dealer will either let you down gently, or he'll be very quick to tell you everything you need to know about the coin. When he's done, you'll have a pretty good idea what sort of counteroffer you'll need to make to have a chance of getting the deal done.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It seems there are those dealers who are reasonably priced, and those that have prices well above market value, and they find ways to justify their prices. In some cases I have found the exact coin sold at auction a few months ago for hundreds less. One example was a coin which sold at auction in May for $300, and this month the dealer has the coin marked at $550. I offered $400 thinking it was a fair offer and left them a decent profit. I was shot down. Needless to say, I dont bother with this dealer even though they have nice coins as I have no interest in being buried.
Another example was a coin I saw on a dealers site priced at $20,000. The dealer was going to be at Baltimore, and I was planning to offer $18,000 for the coin. When I got to their table, I saw the coin, but the price was $32,000! I told him it was listed online at much less, and he refused to beleive me. When I showed him the listing on my Iphone, he said, Oops! I listed it at my cost! Quite a markup no? He still has the coin, and I probably wont bother buying from him in the future.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
A dealer that I frequently buy coins from is always open to what the trend prices are. I have used eBay sold prices several times to help justify the cost of a coin with positive results.
--- Jack Handy
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My first contact would be to ask if there is any room (lower amount) in the price for the coin.
Also ask if there is room would HE give you a figure or amount that he might take for it.
That way you are not showing the cards you have in that he may drop the price too your
idea or you will see if he's still asking way too much and then you reply accordingly, Thank You,
no harm, no foul.
You said " I will not deny that. Lovely toning " which automaticly raises the price of a coin
and for some dealers like I saw at F U N on a Peace Dollar was $2750. & $3750. for nice
toned coin.
"Thats a nice coin. I can't pay what you're asking, but if you ever need to move it out for $700, here's my contact info".
If the dealer has a problem with that approach, then I'd rather find another dealer.
Coin 1 $8500
Now how would you go about offering dealer of Coin 1 the actual real price is really about $5500-6000 or maybe even $5000 since its ANACS graded .. thats about 3K less then his asking.
If the dealer has a problem with that approach, then I'd rather find another dealer.
If I were the dealer, and if I know the coin is worth close to my $1200 asking price, I would have a few problems with you taking that approach. The first problem is that you don't know what you're doing, and I know that's going to make it difficult for us to do business in the future. The second problem is that I will think that you're a cheap buyer, which again tells me that it's going to be difficult to do business in the future. And third, you've essentially accused me of taking a vicious shot at you with my first quote, which tells me that it's unlikely I'll ever gain your trust. So as sincere as your offer was, and despite the fact that you thought the price was fair, I'm probably going to toss your contact info into the trash can. Of course, you would never know any of this. I'll simply thank you for your offer and politely pass.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
A couple points that I will add:
Price guides and often price histories are sufficient for average coins. The OP feels that the example that is offered is exceptional and therefore a price premium is likely warranted.
Price guides can be wrong and especially have trouble keeping up with scarce issues in great demand.
Sometimes the seller (dealer or collector) knows the market better than the perspective buyer and knows how, where, and when he can get his price. As a potential buyer, if you are inexperienced and have only casual knowledge of the market for the item, your assumptions may be way off.
Percentages over or under "price guide" depend greatly on the magnitude of the price. For example, I doubt that many would scoff at buying for $20 an outstanding example of a coin that lists for $10, if the buyer really needed one for the collection. On the other hand, if the price guide is at $10k and the seller wants $20k, there will be justifiably quite a bit more hand-wringing and head-scratching.
The dealer obviously feels the coin will upgrade from a $6K coin towards a $12K coin and is asking more for this chance of an upgrade. If you truly want the coin and would pay a higher price should the coin upgrade(even if only to a VF35) offer to pay a higher price if and when the coin upgrades and what you both would agree to without the upgrade. Just a thought. I doubt this dealer would jump at an offer they would consider the VF20 price that sold at Heritage in June, even though the coin was pcgs and this one a VF30 ANACS. Seems like a nice original looking coin(a three leaf if I'm right). It all depends upon whether the two of you can be reasonable together or not.
Good luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
If the dealer is "wrong" about the coin, the only way you're going to have a chance at buying the coin is to educate him. If you are an expert on the coin and he isn't, by all means give it a shot. Even if you don't get to buy the coin, the dealer will appreciate the education. But in any event, you will get nowhere with your $700 offer unless you FIRST make your case AND THEN get an invitation to make an offer.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
when I find something worth stretching for, I'm usually comfortable with 30-40% over price guide. I see similar pieces offered at 2x, and
sometimes hitting 3x at auction when things get nuts....usually there is an alternative out there to be dug up at a more reasonable price.
Monster coins, rarities, top pops...different story.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So I would not waste a lot of time worrying about it, and would instead look for a different example from another source that is priced at a level more to your liking.
<< <i>here is a test case ( well sort of since i am in the market for one and have been looking .. but i thought this would be a good sample )
Coin 1 $8500
Now how would you go about offering dealer of Coin 1 the actual real price is really about $5500-6000 or maybe even $5000 since its ANACS graded .. thats about 3K less then his asking. >>
As with everything else offered on eBay by this seller (coins, paper money, etc.) this is an extraordinarily choice item, worth much more than the asking price. After all, it says right in the listing "A tremendous and wonderful rare coin inexplicably undergraded. A monumental opportunity." Don't let the fact that it is in an ANACS holder fool you. I don't know why the seller did not send the coin to our hosts to be graded, but I am sure he had a good reason.
<< <i> The only flaw in you rvery logical reasoning is if the coin is overpriced and not worth close to $1200 and the dealer just plain is wrong on this one.
If the dealer is "wrong" about the coin, the only way you're going to have a chance at buying the coin is to educate him. If you are an expert on the coin and he isn't, by all means give it a shot. Even if you don't get to buy the coin, the dealer will appreciate the education. But in any event, you will get nowhere with your $700 offer unless you FIRST make your case AND THEN get an invitation to make an offer. >>
My experience has been that dealers don't appreciate being "educated" by a collector. Most think they are experts and have big egos.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i> The only flaw in you rvery logical reasoning is if the coin is overpriced and not worth close to $1200 and the dealer just plain is wrong on this one.
If the dealer is "wrong" about the coin, the only way you're going to have a chance at buying the coin is to educate him. If you are an expert on the coin and he isn't, by all means give it a shot. Even if you don't get to buy the coin, the dealer will appreciate the education. But in any event, you will get nowhere with your $700 offer unless you FIRST make your case AND THEN get an invitation to make an offer. >>
My experience has been that dealers don't appreciate being "educated" by a collector. Most think they are experts and have big egos. >>
This is when you say something like:
"Dear Mr. Dealer, whose boots I am not fit to lick, I have been arrogant enough to look at one of your coins, and although I am not worthy to own it, I thought I might ask if I could possibly buy it. To the extent it is possible for a numismatic idiot such as myself, I have done some research on the coin, and was hoping, oh great one, that you would stoop to teach me why this coin, with an auction record of $500, is priced at $1200 in your case. I will stand here humbly, head down, awaiting any words of insight or instruction which may fall upon me, this detestable person."
Dealers like that sort of thing.
If I'm a dealer , and I buy a coin ...........and then you see it and find it's value at $500, but I got it listed @ 1200$ .
Maybe , just MAYBE , I had to pay significantly more then 500 bucks to acquire the coin you seem to love so much
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> The only flaw in you rvery logical reasoning is if the coin is overpriced and not worth close to $1200 and the dealer just plain is wrong on this one.
If the dealer is "wrong" about the coin, the only way you're going to have a chance at buying the coin is to educate him. If you are an expert on the coin and he isn't, by all means give it a shot. Even if you don't get to buy the coin, the dealer will appreciate the education. But in any event, you will get nowhere with your $700 offer unless you FIRST make your case AND THEN get an invitation to make an offer. >>
My experience has been that dealers don't appreciate being "educated" by a collector. Most think they are experts and have big egos. >>
This is when you say something like:
"Dear Mr. Dealer, whose boots I am not fit to lick, I have been arrogant enough to look at one of your coins, and although I am not worthy to own it, I thought I might ask if I could possibly buy it. To the extent it is possible for a numismatic idiot such as myself, I have done some research on the coin, and was hoping, oh great one, that you would stoop to teach me why this coin, with an auction record of $500, is priced at $1200 in your case. I will stand here humbly, head down, awaiting any words of insight or instruction which may fall upon me, this detestable person."
Dealers like that sort of thing. >>
I love it.
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<< <i>Maybe , just MAYBE , I had to pay significantly more then 500 bucks to acquire the coin you seem to love so much
Maybe, just MAYBE you are now hopelessly buried in that coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe , just MAYBE , I had to pay significantly more then 500 bucks to acquire the coin you seem to love so much
Maybe, just MAYBE you are now hopelessly buried in that coin.
My thinking. I actually just came across another one on Heritage that's just as nice. Going to try my luck there
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe , just MAYBE , I had to pay significantly more then 500 bucks to acquire the coin you seem to love so much
Maybe, just MAYBE you are now hopelessly buried in that coin.
My thinking. I actually just came across another one on Heritage that's just as nice. Going to try my luck there
You may have better luck on ebay. Heritage auctions tend to be fully priced.
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i>here is a test case ( well sort of since i am in the market for one and have been looking .. but i thought this would be a good sample )
Coin 1 $8500
Now how would you go about offering dealer of Coin 1 the actual real price is really about $5500-6000 or maybe even $5000 since its ANACS graded .. thats about 3K less then his asking. >>
As with everything else offered on eBay by this seller (coins, paper money, etc.) this is an extraordinarily choice item, worth much more than the asking price. After all, it says right in the listing "A tremendous and wonderful rare coin inexplicably undergraded. A monumental opportunity." Don't let the fact that it is in an ANACS holder fool you. I don't know why the seller did not send the coin to our hosts to be graded, but I am sure he had a good reason. >>
Just went through his other offerings... i am impressed with his selection ..seems to be a very good dealer
More often than not, the dealer is the more expert party to the negotiation. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "If you are an expert on the coin and (the dealer) isn't", which is sometimes the case.
In fact, I'm often in that situation, especially with world coins. So if I buy a collection and it contains some Lithuanian thingamajig that my quick research says should be about $1000, and I offer it to a sophisticated collector at that price, I welcome his feedback. Depending on all kinds of things, I may believe him completely or ignore him completely. But I still welcome his feedback, and I may even decide to take his sharp counteroffer.
But if I quote a collector $5000 for a US pattern - an area where I know exactly what I'm doing - and he counters out-of-the-blue at $3000, I'm going to politely but very clearly signal that the negotiations are over.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> The only flaw in you rvery logical reasoning is if the coin is overpriced and not worth close to $1200 and the dealer just plain is wrong on this one.
If the dealer is "wrong" about the coin, the only way you're going to have a chance at buying the coin is to educate him. If you are an expert on the coin and he isn't, by all means give it a shot. Even if you don't get to buy the coin, the dealer will appreciate the education. But in any event, you will get nowhere with your $700 offer unless you FIRST make your case AND THEN get an invitation to make an offer. >>
My experience has been that dealers don't appreciate being "educated" by a collector. Most think they are experts and have big egos. >>
This is when you say something like:
"Dear Mr. Dealer, whose boots I am not fit to lick, I have been arrogant enough to look at one of your coins, and although I am not worthy to own it, I thought I might ask if I could possibly buy it. To the extent it is possible for a numismatic idiot such as myself, I have done some research on the coin, and was hoping, oh great one, that you would stoop to teach me why this coin, with an auction record of $500, is priced at $1200 in your case. I will stand here humbly, head down, awaiting any words of insight or instruction which may fall upon me, this detestable person."
Dealers like that sort of thing. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe , just MAYBE , I had to pay significantly more then 500 bucks to acquire the coin you seem to love so much
Maybe, just MAYBE you are now hopelessly buried in that coin.
My thinking. I actually just came across another one on Heritage that's just as nice. Going to try my luck there
You may have better luck on ebay. Heritage auctions tend to be fully priced. >>
I have my eye on Ebay too but I'm willing to pay full price; that was never an issue. I'd be happy paying the average going rate of $500 on Heritage. I just can't see how somebody can get so far away from the market average.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>here is a test case ( well sort of since i am in the market for one and have been looking .. but i thought this would be a good sample )
Coin 1 $8500
Now how would you go about offering dealer of Coin 1 the actual real price is really about $5500-6000 or maybe even $5000 since its ANACS graded .. thats about 3K less then his asking. >>
As with everything else offered on eBay by this seller (coins, paper money, etc.) this is an extraordinarily choice item, worth much more than the asking price. After all, it says right in the listing "A tremendous and wonderful rare coin inexplicably undergraded. A monumental opportunity." Don't let the fact that it is in an ANACS holder fool you. I don't know why the seller did not send the coin to our hosts to be graded, but I am sure he had a good reason. >>
Just went through his other offerings... i am impressed with his selection ..seems to be a very good dealer >>
Yes indeed. In fact, I think he used to own the currency grading company CGA, but as I understand it, there was some lawsuit and he no longer owns it. I'm not sure about the details, but it may have to do with the mis-grading of notes - but I am not at all sure about that. I believe CGA is now under new ownership and they now put a '*' on their holders to distinguish the notes graded by the current ownership from the notes which were graded when the eBay seller we are discussing owned the company.
I am curious as to why this coin is not in a PCGS holder though.
<< <i>I have my eye on Ebay too but I'm willing to pay full price; that was never an issue. I'd be happy paying the average going rate of $500 on Heritage. I just can't see how somebody can get so far away from the market average. >>
I'm sorry, but this has to be said. Occasionally, a dealer who "specializes" in a particular series thinks he is so numismatically superior to anyone else who deals or collects in that series, that just because he possesses a coin in his inventory that makes the coin "special" somehow and it then becomes worth a MINIMUM of 50% above what the current market says that coin is worth. Essentially, he thinks that anyone should feel honored to own a coin that was sold by him. As if somehow because he is the one who sold the coin that means it carries some special provenance. There is one dealer, who will remain nameless because he is a forum member, I absolutely REFUSE to do business with because he has this exact attitude and pricing structure. I know this because I've engaged him in conversation at a couple of large coin shows and it's quite obvious from hearing him speak. The last thing I will say on this matter is that it's not any of the dealers here who specialize in Barber material.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have my eye on Ebay too but I'm willing to pay full price; that was never an issue. I'd be happy paying the average going rate of $500 on Heritage. I just can't see how somebody can get so far away from the market average. >>
I'm sorry, but this has to be said. Occasionally, a dealer who "specializes" in a particular series thinks he is so numismatially superior to anyone else who deals or collects in that series, that just because he possesses a coin in his inventory that makes the coin "special" somehow and it then becomes worth a MINIMUM of 50% above what the current market says that coin is worth. Essentially, he thinks that anyone should feel honored to own a coin that was sold by him. As if somehow because he is the one who sold the coin that means it carries some special provenance. There is one dealer, who will remain nameless because he is a forum member, I absolutely REFUSE to do business with because he has this exact attitude and pricing structure. I know this because I've engaged him in conversation at a couple of large coin shows and it's quite obvious from hearing him speak. The last thing I will say on this matter is that it's not any of the dealers here who specialize in Barber material. >>
Crazy thought, but maybe you could try asking the seller?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I am curious as to why this coin is not in a PCGS holder though.
Crazy thought, but maybe you could try asking the seller? >>
I would do so if I was in the market for the coin, I am not.
Phaethon and I were just discussing the coin in general terms. I have no idea if he is in the market for the coin or not.
And yes I am in the market for one ... plan on having a sister set by end of year
1795 FH and DB