1696 Papal States - Piastra - help with die differences?

worldcoinguy · July 6, 2011 10:37AM

A huge thanks for Zohar for the tip on this one! I wasn't specifically searching for it, but he knew I am a fan of these late 17th century papal issue piastras. I figure that these do not come up too often, so I sacrificed some nice pieces elsewhere in the collection to be able to swing it.

Papal States
Piastra (Scudo of 80 Bolognini)
DAV-4106
Subject: enthroned Pope facing the Consistory

Zohar · July 6, 2011 10:43AM

This had Brent all over it. Now PLEASE get a good image of this beauty so we can all see what you can see in hand. Excellent pickup which fits right at the core of your set.

STLNATS · July 6, 2011 11:58AM

Pretty piastra. Congrats!

harasha · July 6, 2011 12:39PM

How I admire the numismatica of this period. So Innocent, yet so impressive!

JCMhouston · July 6, 2011 1:07PM

Really excellent engraving on that one, nice pickup.

TwoKopeiki · July 6, 2011 1:20PM

Wow, very nice! It would make a great addition to your papal set!

lordmarcovan · July 6, 2011 8:22PM

Really love the busy reverse design and the grey color in the first set of pics. Needless to say, I'm always a big fan of big 17th century silver.

worldcoinguy · September 27, 2011 9:03AM

Resurrecting this thread because NEN just posted a beautiful example of the same piece on their site. I'm curious if there are any experts on die differences on these Italian/Vatican piastras? There are some significant obverse design differences including text behind the portrait, the design on the garment, and the letters under the sholder on the rim. Any ideas appreciated.

NEN piece:

My piece:

Zohar · September 27, 2011 9:13AM

Quite nice to resurrect this post!

TwoKopeiki · September 27, 2011 11:36AM

Is it just me, or does the pope on the NeN piece looks surprised?

STLNATS · September 27, 2011 11:39AM

Actually its not exactly the same piece, but a different year; each year has a different obverse engraver and different Muntoni number. Year V is M. 20 and in exergue has the signature: P P Borner F. Year VI is M. 21 and has the sig SV for Ferdinand Saint Urbain. Both share the same reverse dated 1696 and carrying Borner's initials PPBF. Even today the pope's regnal years do not coincide with a single calendar year so this is not surprising.

BTW, both of these are assigned to a single Berman number (2228). I think I have the St Urbain obverse, but for some reason didn't note the Muntoni number in my records. Have to see which it is next time I'm at the bank.

edited to add: Now that I look at it, there are two very similar types signed on both obverse and reverse by Saint Urbain for years V and VI (M.22 and M22a). Neither is pictured in Muntoni nor Berman, but the major difference appears to be a rearrangement of the reverse legend: PACEM LOQVETVR GENTIBVS. Again a single Berman number covers both dates (2230)

worldcoinguy · September 28, 2011 3:19PM

Many thanks to STLNATS for the help - this is great information! I have a new study project ahead of me.

Hyperion · September 29, 2011 4:12AM

informative, impressive, beautiful!!!!!!! I love this forum

GoldClause · September 29, 2011 10:38AM

Wow, that's a neat coin.

1696 Papal States - Piastra - help with die differences?

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