Rare 1795 $10 missing from Registered Mail

Julian · June 28, 2011 1:29AM

The following coin has been reported stolen/lost by Spink Smythe.

1795 $10 - 9 Leaves variety. PCGS MS61
Cert # 19335299

Item was sent via registered mail on May 16th. Item was traced to the Chicago
metropolitan area where it has since gone missing. Postal claim and police report
has since been filed.

If anyone has any information please contact:

Matt Orsini (Spink Smythe)
800-556-7826

or

Doug Davis
817-723-7231
doug@numismaticcrimes.org

keyman64 · June 28, 2011 1:32AM

Yikes! Good luck to the owner.

fastfreddie · June 28, 2011 1:35AM

This is a bit unsettleing with my registered package in-transit from the coinlieutenant going on 17 calander days. Wonder if it's got anything to do with pension payments being ceased? Disgruntled ee?

gsaguy · June 28, 2011 1:42AM

If it was properly insured, at least there won't be any monetary damage.

derryb · June 28, 2011 2:01AM

That's a quarter million dollar coin! Registered insurance is limited to $25K. Hopefully private insurance was applied.

Tiny · June 28, 2011 2:07AM

Do dealers or collectors really ship 6 and 7 figure coins. Gez if it was mine I would hand
deliver something like that. Bad part if someone stole it they might have just melted it
down at the pawn shop. Bummer Julian. Good Luck to the owner

CoinRaritiesOnline · June 29, 2011 7:08AM

This is a magnificent coin, and it would be a shame to lose it from the numismatic market. I saw it before it sold, and fell in love.

I have no skin in this game -- I just want folks to be on the lookout for it.

People who steal registered mail get caught 99.999% of the time, so hopefully this will be one of those times.

HKstrongside · June 29, 2011 7:09AM

<< This is a magnificent coin, and it would be a shame to lose it from the numismatic market. I saw it before it sold, and fell in love.

I have no skin in this game -- I just want folks to be on the lookout for it.

People who steal registered mail get caught 99.999% of the time, so hopefully this will be one of those times. >>

Lets hope they are caught.

SaorAlba · June 29, 2011 7:15AM

<< That's a quarter million dollar coin! Registered insurance is limited to $25K. Hopefully private insurance was applied. >>

The post office doesn't publish the fact that they do insure for far greater amounts. In fact many years ago the Hope Diamond was shipped registered. I know this, because a few years ago I made a significant purchase that was in the six figures that came registered mail - cost like $300 to ship it though.

scotty1419 · June 29, 2011 7:29AM

At those levels though - why not just get a coach ticket and fly the item in?

coinlieutenant · June 29, 2011 8:03AM

I was thinking the same thing john. I get home tomorrow and will check the registered number. Sent another registered package a week later and it has already gotten there.

kiyote · June 29, 2011 8:13AM

Ugh; this makes me feel sick to my tummy.

Julian · June 29, 2011 8:14AM

<< 

<< That's a quarter million dollar coin! Registered insurance is limited to $25K. Hopefully private insurance was applied. >>

The post office doesn't publish the fact that they do insure for far greater amounts. In fact many years ago the Hope Diamond was shipped registered. I know this, because a few years ago I made a significant purchase that was in the six figures that came registered mail - cost like $300 to ship it though. >>

The fact of the matter is that the USPS charges more for high value packages, but they only insure for 25k. Anybody needing insurance on the excess of 25k needs to get private insurance.

illini420 · June 29, 2011 8:15AM

<< Yikes! Good luck to the owner. >>

And also good luck to the last post office employee to sign for the package... they may be unemployed soon if the package doesn't turn up soon.

Banemorth · June 29, 2011 9:27AM

Wow what a travesty. I really hope this works out for both the buyer and seller.

drwstr123 · June 29, 2011 9:39AM

Just curious...please don't misunderstand...Numismatically I'm upset and disgusted and hope the perp is rendered lifeless,
but how much was the coin insured for?
The PO insures to $25K but charges a handling fee for the excess value.
This fee can go to providing an armed guard if the PO deems.

PerryHall · June 29, 2011 9:51AM

<< 

<< Yikes! Good luck to the owner. >>

And also good luck to the last post office employee to sign for the package... they may be unemployed soon if the package doesn't turn up soon. >>

I'm sure they will be thoroughly interviewed by the postal inspectors. If it was an inside job they may do some prison time.

JamesMurray · June 29, 2011 9:56AM

I know it's not funny , not at all...but talk about stealing the wrong package...wow.. 50/50 the thief had no idea what it was other than a coin possibly of value. I don't see this one slipping through the net.

pennyannie · June 29, 2011 9:57AM

I must be greedy, i am still mad that i am holding a hot check for 500 bucks. No way am i going to ship a 250k coin on the faith the post office is going to deliver.

I agree that most of the time the thief gets caught, little good it does if he has melted or sold the coin for cents on the dollar. Maybe he will be ordered to pay restitution of which he may send a one time payment of 25 bucks.

I hope it turns out well for all involved.

Dennis88 · June 29, 2011 10:11AM

Shipping coins in any other way can be nerve-breaking and problematic at all levels. When it comes to 6, 7 or 8 figure objects...it can get though.

For the people here who suggested that they would deliver such a coin personally, remember that many auction companies sell 6 figure coins on a regular basis. To send someone over from the company every single time will cost a fortune, as all those people need to be checked for their reliability and need to be paid as well. Figure a large collection of valuable coins this would cost an absolute fortune and there still would be risks associated with it. Can you imagine HA delivering every $100,000++ coin in person? In that case they better start hiring people at a very quick rate!

I'm sure the coin was privately insured (although many third-party insurance companies do have limits for certain types of mail, including registered). Personally I would looking into the likes of FedEx or even Brinks, as they might be more reliable than USPS.

Dennis

Lakesammman · June 29, 2011 10:26AM

Hope the coin is recovered!

I once flew from Seattle to Florida to deliver some coins - I didn't know the seller well enough to ship and he didn't know me well enough to send the $$ first. We met at his bank, he checked out the coins, wired me the money and I flew back home - it was a VERY long day!

greatnortherncoin · June 29, 2011 10:27AM

the u s mail does it again

ColonialCoinUnion · June 29, 2011 10:43AM

<< Personally I would looking into the likes of FedEx . . ., as they might be more reliable than USPS.

Dennis >>

Based on the rates they charge to cover shipments via either carrier, the insurance companies seem to think the USPS is considerably less risky than FedEx.

pmh1nic · June 29, 2011 10:49AM

The USPS is losing billions of dollars a years.

BBN · June 29, 2011 10:59AM

For that much money I would have somehow arranged a person to person pick up. I think I would do that for anything above $10k if the drive were less than 1,000 miles.

Analyst · June 29, 2011 11:03AM

This 1795 Eagle is an appealing and very important coin. I spent time examining it in May and I wrote about it. As one of few known of a rare variety, it would, I imagine, be difficult to fence. Hopefully, Smith-Smythe will make high resolution images available.

This coin is pictured in my article about the auction of the “Magnolia Collection.” The publisher of CoinWeek would probably agree to post even higher resolution images along with an announcement of the theft. I suggest that Spink-Smythe send information about this matter to media entities so that coin dealers and other coin buyers around the nation become aware of this theft and of the characteristics of this 1795 Eagle.

The Magnolia Collection of Early U.S. Gold Coins, late 19th century Patterns, Trade Dollars and more!

BryceM · June 29, 2011 11:08AM

1/4 million and it was put in the mail? I don't get it. My time, plus the cost of a plane ticket, would total less than 1% of the coin's value. Plus, it would probably be a ton of fun to meet the buyer, talk shop, make a nice contact, and oogle at his other coins. At the very least send it with a reputable courier service........

JamesM · June 29, 2011 11:16AM

<< For that much money I would have somehow arranged a person to person pick up. I think I would do that for anything above $10k if the drive were less than 1,000 miles. >>

Well that is around 300$ in gas(25 ish MPG) and around 36 hours of driving(55 mph) so that is 4.5 full work days(8 hours)

So at 36 hours or so of driving if the dealer pays himself the low rate of 20$ an hour or pay someone trusted 50$ an hour(because you do not want to underpay someone that has your 100k+ item(s)).

That is 720$ or 1800$ in labor costs.

So if your a dealer that deals with coins like this on a regular basis then your costs are going to be over 2k for delivery of this 10k+ coin.

Not adding in costs for hotels, food, car repairs, added insurance ect.

I do not think most dealers work on spreads high enough to cover costs like that, if they are then the coin is stolen or your overpaying.

BBN · June 29, 2011 11:26AM

<< 

<< For that much money I would have somehow arranged a person to person pick up. I think I would do that for anything above $10k if the drive were less than 1,000 miles. >>

Well that is around 300$ in gas(25 ish MPG) and around 36 hours of driving(55 mph) so that is 4.5 full work days(8 hours)

So at 36 hours or so of driving if the dealer pays himself the low rate of 20$ an hour or pay someone trusted 50$ an hour(because you do not want to underpay someone that has your 100k+ item(s)).

That is 720$ or 1800$ in labor costs.

So if your a dealer that deals with coins like this on a regular basis then your costs are going to be over 2k for delivery of this 10k+ coin.

Not adding in costs for hotels, food, car repairs, added insurance ect.

I do not think most dealers work on spreads high enough to cover costs like that, if they are then the coin is stolen or your overpaying. >>

LOL well, first of all, I would go to get the coin, not make him come to me. I'd be driving 70-75 the whole way. For a coin that expensive I would drive over night all in one shot, get a hotel, get some good sleep and then head back first thing at 8am the next day. Should be 15 hours top with stops just for gassing, peepeeing and hitting a drive-thru. In this time I'd probably take a day off next to my weekend. Worth it to me. I don't own any coin that expensive so an event like this might happen maybe once or twice in my lifetime.

ChrisRx · June 29, 2011 12:18PM

Can someone post a picture of this coin?

GAT · June 29, 2011 12:31PM

I was once on a flight from London to Los Angeles that had a Rembrandt occupying two first class seats.

derryb · June 29, 2011 1:17PM

<< Can someone post a picture of this coin? >>

RedTiger · June 29, 2011 2:24PM

That is some bad news.

Maybe I've seen too many movies, but couriers are probably no more reliable as a percentage than registered mail, and a good deal more expensive. People can be bought. Once reliable employees can turn or develop issues such as gambling debts, or drug or drinking problems. Inside information can be sold to rogues. A low level employee with knowledge on the itinerary can sell it to some bad guys and the theft can be arranged. A single person traveling alone will have little defense against a well planned crime that knows the target, no matter how dependable, no matter how well trained. Auto accidents happen all the time, as do unexpected medical problems. What if the courier has a heart attack during the trip? Any coins might easily get "misplaced" by medical staff that suspect its value, and it will be very tough to trace. The odds of those kinds of events are similar to the odds of a high value registered mail package going missing and staying missing.

Again, maybe I've seen too many movies, but registered mail seems about the same odds, and less money. If an auction firm is shipping lots of high value parcels, they likely have private insurance. For private insurers, registered mail would likely be preferred, so as to avoid the possibility of inside employee theft.

derryb · June 29, 2011 2:27PM

I like the piece of mind knowing that postal employees have to sign for possession of registered packages. This chain of custody hopefully makes an employee with exceptional pay and benefits think twice about losing his job.

illini420 · June 29, 2011 2:33PM

<< Shipping coins in any other way can be nerve-breaking and problematic at all levels. When it comes to 6, 7 or 8 figure objects...it can get though.

For the people here who suggested that they would deliver such a coin personally, remember that many auction companies sell 6 figure coins on a regular basis. To send someone over from the company every single time will cost a fortune, as all those people need to be checked for their reliability and need to be paid as well. Figure a large collection of valuable coins this would cost an absolute fortune and there still would be risks associated with it. Can you imagine HA delivering every $100,000++ coin in person? In that case they better start hiring people at a very quick rate!
>>

Well since you posed the question, I actually think it could be reasonable for every $100k+ coin to be hand delievered by a trusted employee of the auction house. At a minimum the auction house is taking in $10k+ in commissions from the sale of those coins. So yeah, spend a small percentage of that fat commission to hand deliver it to your deep pocketed bidders. It would take $1k-$2k for a coin to be hand delivered and it's very likely that multiple coins could be hand delivered on the same trip. Might even end up being cheaper than the insurance to mail. Would also make for a better experience from the buyer's perspective. Instead of getting a box left on your porch in the rain... you'd get an auction house rep showing up to present your special coin and then maybe even treat you to lunch/dinner!!! hahaha

tradedollarnut · June 29, 2011 2:35PM

The last 3 FedEx signature required packages that I've received have been left on my doorstep. And I'll never use Brinks again. Give me Registered Mail anytime.

notwilight · June 29, 2011 4:02PM

Since this has moved into a shipping thread, I'll add a couple of thoughts. Lets see, so one guy in this thread wants me to give him the coin and a $3500 fee to deliver it. I think I know more about the guy behind the counter at the post office than I do this guy...good help is hard to find. how do you find someone you'd hand a coin like this to and trust? I think those suggesting personal delivery for $100k coins haven't thought the business through. One poster thinks the auction houses are getting rich off of fat commissions and have piles of $100 bills laying around they could use to pay a courier....now the dealer who represented the buyer of the $1.9M 1894-S dime that wondercoin sold for a customer picked it up personally and published an article in the SF Chronicle about the trip home and his sweaty palms. At $1.9M it seems to make sense to buy a plane ticket and do it yourself. I recently shipped a $60k package to Las Vegas. I toyed with taking it myself but in general don't have the spare time. it's only a 7 hour drive but my time is too valuable (to me).

For high value parcels I have used www.parcelpro.com who made their name in the jewelry business. They seem very professional and I've never had a bit of probelem, even on high value international shipments to a variety of countries in Asia, Europe, and beyond. If I create a shipment in the morning and haven't dropped it at the courier by noon, they call me up and ask if everything is ok.

--Jerry

pennyannie · June 29, 2011 5:56PM

r....now the dealer who represented the buyer of the $1.9M 1894-S dime that wondercoin sold for a customer picked it up personally and published an article in the SF Chronicle about the trip home and his sweaty palms. At $1.9M it seems to make sense to buy a plane ticket and do it yourself. I recently shipped a $60k package to Las Vegas. I toyed with taking it myself but in general don't have the spare time. it's only a 7 hour drive but my time is too valuable (to me)

--Jerry >>

I wish i made 8500 an hour.

I am always pressed for time myself, but i can not afford to lose 60k. I guess i have the old double standard. You can ship me 60k in coins as long as YOU are responsible for delivery. If i have to be the one shipping i am going to make sure i have as many bases covered as possible. I am just a lowly 35 an hour employee.

PerryHall · June 29, 2011 6:09PM

A feasability study was performed to determine the best way to transport the Hope diamond to the Smithsonian Institute. The study determined that registered mail was the safest way to go,

notwilight · June 29, 2011 10:21PM

<< r....now the dealer who represented the buyer of the $1.9M 1894-S dime that wondercoin sold for a customer picked it up personally and published an article in the SF Chronicle about the trip home and his sweaty palms. At $1.9M it seems to make sense to buy a plane ticket and do it yourself. I recently shipped a $60k package to Las Vegas. I toyed with taking it myself but in general don't have the spare time. it's only a 7 hour drive but my time is too valuable (to me)

--Jerry >>

I wish i made 8500 an hour.

I am always pressed for time myself, but i can not afford to lose 60k. I guess i have the old double standard. You can ship me 60k in coins as long as YOU are responsible for delivery. If i have to be the one shipping i am going to make sure i have as many bases covered as possible. I am just a lowly 35 an hour employee. >>

If I can't sell coins and feel comfortable shipping them, then I need to find another job. If you don't feel comfortable shipping, then stick with your other job. My analysis on delivering them was did I have any other business or pleasure in LV that would make the trip worthwhile considering I'd be saving about $100 in shipping fees. --jerry

pmh1nic · June 29, 2011 10:34PM

If a signature is required when the coin is transferred from one person to the next it means that not only is the coin missing but a person is missing or that the last person that signed for the coin doesn't exist.

itsnotjustme · June 29, 2011 10:39PM

<< If it was properly insured, at least there won't be any monetary damage. >>

No direct monetary damage to the buyer/seller that is. Since the USPS would pay the claim, that translates into marginally higher postage/registered/insurance rates for all of us.

coinhunters · June 29, 2011 10:45PM

I'll hope that it eventually be located. Registered mail is tough to loose.

BAJJERFAN · June 30, 2011 12:37AM

<< A feasability study was performed to determine the best way to transport the Hope diamond to the Smithsonian Institute. The study determined that registered mail was the safest way to go, >>

Actually, the people who did the study determined that registered mail was safest!!

BAJJERFAN · June 30, 2011 12:41AM

<< 

<< If it was properly insured, at least there won't be any monetary damage. >>

No direct monetary damage to the buyer/seller that is. Since the USPS would pay the claim, that translates into marginally higher postage/registered/insurance rates for all of us. >>

Actually the maximum the USPS will pay is $25K. If you did not declare the true value and pay the extra security fee, you will get ZEEROW, NADA, NUTTIN, ZILCH. In other words you will be SOL. The USPS will say that had they known the true value, they would have handled it differently.

BAJJERFAN · June 30, 2011 12:46AM

<< 

<< That's a quarter million dollar coin! Registered insurance is limited to $25K. Hopefully private insurance was applied. >>

The post office doesn't publish the fact that they do insure for far greater amounts. In fact many years ago the Hope Diamond was shipped registered. I know this, because a few years ago I made a significant purchase that was in the six figures that came registered mail - cost like $300 to ship it though. >>

The extra money is for security, not insurance; at least that is how it was told to me.

BAJJERFAN · June 30, 2011 12:48AM

<< 

<< 

<< Yikes! Good luck to the owner. >>

And also good luck to the last post office employee to sign for the package... they may be unemployed soon if the package doesn't turn up soon. >>

I'm sure they will be thoroughly interviewed by the postal inspectors. If it was an inside job they may do some prison time. >>

I believe that they may be required to pay restitution too.

botanist · June 30, 2011 1:01AM

<< People who steal registered mail get caught 99.999% of the time, so hopefully this will be one of those times. >>

The package was posted on May 16th and was probably reported missing before the end of May, already a month ago, so the trail is now ice cold. Where does that quoted figure of 99.999% of thefts solved come from, to me it doesn't ring true. I'm pessimistic about the outcome here. Factual updates awaited.

PerryHall · June 30, 2011 2:53AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< Yikes! Good luck to the owner. >>

And also good luck to the last post office employee to sign for the package... they may be unemployed soon if the package doesn't turn up soon. >>

I'm sure they will be thoroughly interviewed by the postal inspectors. If it was an inside job they may do some prison time. >>

I believe that they may be required to pay restitution too. >>

If he sold it for pennies on the dollar, good luck collecting from an unemployeed mailman who is in prison.

BAJJERFAN · June 30, 2011 2:55AM

<< 

<< People who steal registered mail get caught 99.999% of the time, so hopefully this will be one of those times. >>

The package was posted on May 16th and was probably reported missing before the end of May, already a month ago, so the trail is now ice cold. Where does that quoted figure of 99.999% of thefts solved come from, to me it doesn't ring true. I'm pessimistic about the outcome here. Factual updates awaited. >>

I doubt that they have very many theft attempts of registered mail.

Olds76 · June 30, 2011 5:39AM

Was it legitimately lost, stolen, fraud, the delivery worker’s know of what they pick up or return addy’s from companies and know what they deal in. They just don’t deliver in the dark. I hope its recovered so this can have a happy ending.
I have never shipped coins or paper money yet but for everything IV read on this CUF concerning USPS lost, damaged mail register mail or, FedEx and USPS leaving packages without getting a required signature. Not knowing anything about Brinks or other carriers, I come to only one conclusion.
Its irresponsible not to hand deliver an item worth 250K. As a seller, why would you want to fight with insurance trying to get paid for the lost item? As the buyer spending 250K for anything, why wouldn’t you do everything to get that item you just bought and want badly enough to spend 250K.
Split the added hand carried expense equally. At what price do you put on ‘peace of mind’ that it arrives safely?
Someone will say at what value of an item does one ship V hand carry, that’s up to the individuals involved but at 250K as a buyer or seller I would insist on hand delivery.
Hein site is 20/20 they say, I’m sure both seller and buyer right now are thinking I should of hand carried that expensive coin.
Complacency will lead to improper thinking towards reality.

Rare 1795 $10 missing from Registered Mail

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