Show off a toned Booker T. Washington or a Carver/BTW!

devious · June 26, 2011 10:51AM

I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

kaz · June 26, 2011 10:56AM

Well this one ain't Monstah toned,for sure, but it is toned:

ldhair · June 26, 2011 11:03AM

kaz · June 26, 2011 11:05AM

Both of those BTW's are really nice!

truthteller · June 26, 2011 11:10AM

<< I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

>>

Is the coin certified?

TRUTH

devious · June 26, 2011 11:13AM

<< 

<< I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

>>

Is the coin certified?

TRUTH >>

No. Is there a problem with the toning you think they'd reject certifying it?

truthteller · June 26, 2011 11:21AM

<< 

<< 

<< I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

>>

Is the coin certified?

TRUTH >>

No. Is there a problem with the toning you think they'd reject certifying it? >>

Yes, there is a problem. This is what is called "crackled toning". This toning pattern will be found on low cost commems such as BTWs, Clevelands, Texas. etc. They started appearing at the Long Beach coin show back in the late 1980's. Initially, the TPGs would grade a few of them, but the color was deemed AT by the early 1990's. I have seen several of this toning pattern over the years, always raw.

TRUTH

devious · June 26, 2011 11:29AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

>>

Is the coin certified?

TRUTH >>

No. Is there a problem with the toning you think they'd reject certifying it? >>

Yes, there is a problem. This is what is called "crackled toning". This toning pattern will be found on low cost commems such as BTWs, Clevelands, Texas. etc. They started appearing at the Long Beach coin show back in the late 1980's. Initially, the TPGs would grade a few of them, but the color was deemed AT by the early 1990's. I have seen several of this toning pattern over the years, always raw.

TRUTH >>

Thanks for the lesson. I just received a PM stating the exact same thing. Oh well! Such is a lesson learned. And one I will be forced to hang onto for a very long time. Thanks for pointing this out to me! I'll just give myself a boot in the behind every now and then when it comes to buying raw toned commems that look as cool as this.

RichieURich · June 26, 2011 11:33AM

Goldbully · June 26, 2011 11:39AM

<< I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

>>

Your coin was sold by one of the best sellers on eBay.
You will have no problems in any way!!!!!
BTW, I was sooo tempted on that one!!!!!!

eBay Link

lcoopie · June 26, 2011 11:41AM

TomB · June 26, 2011 11:42AM

In case anyone is wondering, I was the person to send the PM to devious regarding this coin when it was shared on the boards and my PM was almost exactly the same as the post by truthteller.

PawPaul · June 26, 2011 11:46AM

I agree ,

I have to wonder why one of eBay's greatest did not know that was from an A.T hoard ............

kaz · June 26, 2011 11:49AM

Another instructive thread!

llafoe · June 26, 2011 11:50AM

$283 is only on the way to the Moon money... you'll be fine!

devious · June 26, 2011 11:53AM

<< $283 is only on the way to the Moon money... you'll be fine!

>>

Haha! LOL! Yes, I'll be fine. I admit it, I saw it and wanted it because I find most toned BTWs ugly. There are a few good looking ones, but they're up there in the multi-thousand dollar range. I figured for less than 500, I really thought this one would be legitimate. I held out so not to inform people of what I was going after. The bidding was fierce.

coinsarefun · June 26, 2011 12:05PM

One I used to own...........

Goldbully · June 26, 2011 12:05PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I never see too many of these. Sorry for all of my BTW threads lately. I guess I envy these coins more than others. Hoping to bring out some more BTW collectors with this thread.

Bear also has a very nice Carver in his collection.

Thus far, I've only purchased white ones with their original patinas, but I did buy this one today for MOON- money because I really like the way it looks (seller photos):

>>

Is the coin certified?

TRUTH >>

No. Is there a problem with the toning you think they'd reject certifying it? >>

Yes, there is a problem. This is what is called "crackled toning". This toning pattern will be found on low cost commems such as BTWs, Clevelands, Texas. etc. They started appearing at the Long Beach coin show back in the late 1980's. Initially, the TPGs would grade a few of them, but the color was deemed AT by the early 1990's. I have seen several of this toning pattern over the years, always raw.

TRUTH >>

Never heard of this "crackled toning" type. Anyone else agree with truth???? TomB???

Bear · June 26, 2011 12:07PM

These two Commems usually do not come pleasing looking or with nice toning.

But there are some mighty fine looking specimens on this thread. Thank you all

for sharing .

FullHorn · June 26, 2011 12:26PM

BigMoose · June 26, 2011 12:26PM

Goldbully, I agree 100% with truth and TomB--Larry Shepherd described this exact type of toning at a TCCS meeting several years ago, calling it "crackle toning" and even had an example for "show and tell". TomT.

Bear · June 26, 2011 12:54PM

Wow, you learn something new each day. I would not have bought a crackling toning

because I do not like the way it looks, not because I knew it was AT. I do prefer smooth,

even toning, in the warmer shades. However, no toning is absolutely safe, from Dr Coin.

Coins911 · June 26, 2011 1:05PM

I have a golden toned BTW for sale if any one is interested in PCGS 64 problem is i sucj at photos

melvin289 · June 26, 2011 1:06PM

A set I put together over the period of 3 or 4 years. A very difficult set too, I might add.

Ron

devious · June 26, 2011 1:09PM

Hi Ron,

I'd like to see that 1953-S a little bit closer. And what a nice set it is!

Aaron

melvin289 · June 26, 2011 1:15PM

<< Hi Ron,

I'd like to see that 1953-S a little bit closer. And what a nice set it is!

Aaron >>

Why thank you Aaron. That 53-S was purchased in NGC skin and I sent it in for crossover. When it crossed it was the 14th 53-S in PCGS
MS-66. I think there are around 70 or 80 something of them now in 66.

I will get my camera out early this week and see if I can get a better picture of the 53-S. As you can tell my pics are not the best.

I just looked, there are 87 graded in MS-66 with 8 better. When I crossed it it was the 14th with maybe 1 better, if any.

Ron

Goldbully · June 26, 2011 1:57PM

<< Goldbully, I agree 100% with truth and TomB--Larry Shepherd described this exact type of toning at a TCCS meeting several years ago, calling it "crackle toning" and even had an example for "show and tell". TomT. >>

OK then.....sounds like there is some consensus here.

Kove · June 26, 2011 2:01PM

<< Goldbully, I agree 100% with truth and TomB--Larry Shepherd described this exact type of toning at a TCCS meeting several years ago, calling it "crackle toning" and even had an example for "show and tell". TomT. >>

Larry Shepherd stated the same thing in his ANA Summer Seminar class last year. He said these were toned using some substance that shrank as it dried or "cured" giving the crackled appearance. I've seen a couple of W-Cs with this type of toning in OGH's so you have to be somewhat careful. In fact, I saw one in an OGH at the recent Sacramento ANA show in March in the display case of a dealer that normally doesn't deal much in commems.

Justacommeman · June 26, 2011 3:09PM

MJ

melvin289 · June 26, 2011 4:02PM

<<

MJ >>

MJ you just never quit with the coins to make me drool and envious. Two beautiful commems you have there.

Ron

devious · June 26, 2011 10:17PM

MJ, I like that BTW. It has a cooling effect. Let me know when you are ready to sell.

The Carver is nice, too!!!

Also, I'd like to say that I'm glad I posted this. This thread presents one of those moments that many people both new and old can learn from. That crackle toning is something I'd never heard of. And to me, being a toning newb. aside from mint sets, thought that would be original and MA. Russ has agreed to let me off the hook and for that I thank him. No hassle neither. I think he will understand more once (if) he sees this thread. There is a lot yet not understood by myself in the toning market. Is there a resource one can pickup that is dedicated to toning itself? And would it (the resource) address similar issues like the crackle toning matter among possibly other AT patterns that are obvious and have hit the market?

llafoe · June 26, 2011 10:38PM

<< Is there a resource one can pickup that is dedicated to toning itself? >>

MS70

devious · June 26, 2011 10:45PM

<< 

<< Is there a resource one can pickup that is dedicated to toning itself? >>

MS70

>>

MS70 is to toning as marriage is to llafoe

halfhunter · June 27, 2011 12:28AM

WOW . . .Thanks for the post.

Although I'm certainly no toning expert, I would have sworn that coin has nice old album toning ! ! !

EDIT: OT . . . but is the TCCS site back up and running? If so is it now safe?
Went there a while back & ended up with my CPU in the shop ! ! !

HH

Eagleguy · June 27, 2011 12:35AM

Not a big fan of these issues but I have a few.

JH

Russ · June 27, 2011 3:53AM

I've seen this type of toning in all three of the credible TPG holders over the years, so I assumed it was good. But, Tom and BigMoose both have serious credibility with me, so I'll chalk this one up to live and learn.

Russ, NCNE

devious · June 27, 2011 4:16AM

<< I've seen this type of toning in all three of the credible TPG holders over the years, so I assumed it was good. But, Tom and BigMoose both have serious credibility with me, so I'll chalk this one up to live and learn.

Russ, NCNE >>

And Russ was upstanding and understanding of the cancellation. All is okay. And my public thank you to Russ. I am glad it was you I was dealing with. The coin still has eye appeal, and it was my belief that it was album toning until this term "crackle toning" came about last night.

rainbowroosie · June 27, 2011 7:53AM

I've always seen this type of toning refered to as "Texas Toning" for the artiste who created it.

richardshipp · June 27, 2011 8:10AM

kaz · June 27, 2011 10:44AM

Russ!

Monstarcoins · June 27, 2011 11:38AM

Toning similar to this is often refereed to as Texas Toning because the initial offering from this doctor was on texas commems. I will however say this. I dont think you would have an issue with this one grading at all. I had a similar Oregon that some including TomB felt wouldn't grade. It most definitely did. Nothing about this coin screams AT to me.

bestclser1 · June 27, 2011 12:48PM

<< WOW . . .Thanks for the post.

Although I'm certainly no toning expert, I would have sworn that coin has nice old album toning ! ! !

EDIT: OT . . . but is the TCCS site back up and running? If so is it now safe?
Went there a while back & ended up with my CPU in the shop ! ! !

HH >>

No the TCCS site is not up and running safely.I will notify the board if/when it is.

PawPaul · June 27, 2011 1:07PM

<< I've seen this type of toning in all three of the credible TPG holders over the years, so I assumed it was good. But, Tom and BigMoose both have serious credibility with me, so I'll chalk this one up to live and learn.

Russ, NCNE >>

well let me straight out ask you then why you did not submit it yourself ......, as the potential for a high grade with that kind of color in a TPG holder would mean a very handsome profit

PawPaul · June 27, 2011 1:17PM

Nothing about this coin screams AT to me.

the best A.T jobs never scream ............ thats why they can fool even the experts

I find it a very pleasant change of direction here on these boards - a very sweet change indeed -

that when credible board members speak up and share their knowledge ,

and declare a piece almost assuredly an A.T example :

only the amateur , kocky , swelled ego know it all's chime in to say different

truthteller · June 27, 2011 2:14PM

I find it a very pleasant change of direction here on these boards - a very sweet change indeed -that when credible board members speak up and share their knowledge

This is the way it used to be back in 2000-2001. Unfortunately, the PCGS forum got too big for itself, with too many people, often showing coins, bantering, name calling. The really good information got lost in the crowd and many knowledgeable people went away.

TRUTH

Monstarcoins · June 27, 2011 2:43PM

<< Nothing about this coin screams AT to me.

the best A.T jobs never scream ............ thats why they can fool even the experts

I find it a very pleasant change of direction here on these boards - a very sweet change indeed -

that when credible board members speak up and share their knowledge ,

and declare a piece almost assuredly an A.T example :

only the amateur , kocky , swelled ego know it all's chime in to say different

>>

Gee whiz........ Who in there right mind would say I am an amateur when it comes to toning? Mr. PawPaul why dont you just play nice? We both know I have good reason to have a swelled ego!

Edited to add: The same people told me my coins were AT...... So far Im batting 100

I say send her in and let the folks at PCGS decide.

devious · June 27, 2011 3:30PM

<< 

<< Nothing about this coin screams AT to me.

the best A.T jobs never scream ............ thats why they can fool even the experts

I find it a very pleasant change of direction here on these boards - a very sweet change indeed -

that when credible board members speak up and share their knowledge ,

and declare a piece almost assuredly an A.T example :

only the amateur , kocky , swelled ego know it all's chime in to say different

>>

Gee whiz........ Who in there right mind would say I am an amateur when it comes to toning? Mr. PawPaul why dont you just play nice? We both know I have good reason to have a swelled ego!

Edited to add: The same people told me my coins were AT...... So far Im batting 100

I say send her in and let the folks at PCGS decide. >>

Hey Monstar, I have a deal (sounding like a used cars salesman) for you. I buy the coin since you are so sure. I send it in to be graded (regular submission). If it comes back BB'd, you buy the coin from me for my price paid plus the grading fee? We can make it a public challenge. You seem really sure of this. And I may have sided with you before

on the forums, in this case, I don't know...If you really think you're batting 100, I DARE you to shake on this publicly? I'll contact Russ right away and if he will, restart the transaction.

Man up to the challenge!

P.S. I don't disagree with you, but I also do not disagree with TomB/truth/etc because they're all in agreement. And I think its fair since you are challenging the information the majority is bringing forth, we let the TPG decide and if you're right, we all have something new to learn or to try and understand what you proclaim to already know...and I just go on keeping the coin anyway.

Monstarcoins · June 27, 2011 3:39PM

Heres what I will do...... If it Body Bags do to artificial toning and nothing else I will most definitely buy from you for the price you paid. If there is someting under neath that toning that we cannot see like an old cleaning I dont want to be held responsible for that. but as far the toning goes......... Run it!

Edited to add : When I win can we make a deal that Pawpaul has to put Monstarcoins Rocks! in his sig line for one month?

devious · June 27, 2011 3:49PM

Being I trust humanity more than humanity trusts itself, I'll trust you on good faith. If you disappear afterward, or fail to purchase the coin IF it body bags, that's your problem.

I have another submission waiting to be sent in now. So I'll get in touch with Russ immediately and see if we can still commence the transaction. I am glad you allowed me to put myself in a win-win position. Without it, I wouldn't have made this sort of offer-SLASH-dare

devious · June 27, 2011 3:50PM

<< Heres what I will do...... If it Body Bags do to artificial toning and nothing else I will most definitely buy from you for the price you paid. If there is someting under neath that toning that we cannot see like an old cleaning I dont want to be held responsible for that. but as far the toning goes......... Run it!

Edited to add : When I win can we make a deal that Pawpaul has to put Monstarcoins Rocks! in his sig line for one month? >>

That's between you and Pawpaul! But I think that would be a legitimate request. Albeit, funny! (I laughed when I read that)

melvin289 · June 27, 2011 4:12PM

devious,

A few more BTW's and C/W's for you. These are extras I have picked up down through the years. None are part of my sets.

Ron

Show off a toned Booker T. Washington or a Carver/BTW!

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