SS Central America: Kellogg $50 Quintuple Eagle Restrikes

mrearlygold · June 21, 2011 4:37AM

Lately I'm feeling like word has gotten out that I'm the one to sell these things to. ( just so many of them have come in recently I have to wonder )

But today I received a "Matte" proof example and I don't have a clue how to price it. I was told there's very few of these minted in comparison to the brilliant proofs. Does anyone know what the actual mintages are for these? Any other information?

Here's a brilliant proof as an example.

Banemorth · June 21, 2011 4:42AM

I've never even seen one of those before but the eagle is gorgeous! Fantastic coin

TheBigB · June 21, 2011 4:52AM

They actually melted ingots from the Central America for these, weird?

Did you pay over melt?

Zoins · June 21, 2011 4:57AM

<< They actually melted ingots from the Central America for these, weird?

Did you pay over melt? >>

I believe they were originally sold for a substantial premium over melt. I'm not sure what they go for now.

I'd be interested to see a photo of the matte proof version.

So far, the most interesting one I've seen of these are ones that were struck on a certain date in Sept 2001.

clackamas · June 21, 2011 5:03AM

What do the proofs sell for? Absent specific mintage data between each I would pay the same price.

dragon · June 21, 2011 5:06AM

I believe very few of the matte finish coins were made, and IIRC they were called uncs not proofs.

RedHerring · June 21, 2011 5:07AM

There has been only a slight premium over melt for these lately. Don't know about the matte proof though.

Heritage has sold a few. Here's the latest:

HA.com

$3450 for nearly 2.5 troy ounces. That's melt.

Zoins · June 21, 2011 5:07AM

eBay shows 2 recent auctions: $3,800 on June 9 and $4,141 on June 12. With 2.5 oz of gold, the bullion value is currently around $3,865.

The one on HA was sold October 29, 2010.

roadrunner · June 21, 2011 5:13AM

Almost ironic that those came out during the period when gold was rock bottoming......plus minted just 4 days prior to 9-11.

roadrunner

mrearlygold · June 21, 2011 5:17AM

<< eBay shows 2 recent auctions: $3,800 on June 9 and $4,141 on June 12. With 2.5 oz of gold, the bullion value is currently around $3,865.

The one on HA was sold October 29, 2010. >>

Is that for the brilliant or matte proofs?

Any ideas how many of the matte's were produced? I'll have an image done of the one that just came in later tonight ( my Wife is making home made Pierogi's right now and I'm anticipating gaining some weight tonight. For those who don't know, my Wife is from Asia and somehow has made the most fantastic kruschiki I have ever had ( sorry Babci , yours were great too but these are off the map ) So I'm really looking forward to the pierogis!

EagleEye · June 21, 2011 5:20AM

I Have one Minted on 9-11-2001.

Coin Facts

four coins sold as a lot for about melt

mrearlygold · June 21, 2011 5:39AM

This uncirculated one is the most "common" apparently with a mintage of 200 struck on 9/12

Zoins · June 21, 2011 6:26AM

<< This uncirculated one is the most "common" apparently with a mintage of 200 struck on 9/12 >>

Good to know. Both of the ones in the bay had inserts that said "Gem Proof." The one for $3,800 has mirrored surfaces while the one for just over $4k looks like this:

Even better to hear about the pierogis. I had some a while back and they were a treat

pmh1nic · June 21, 2011 7:02AM

<< They actually melted ingots from the Central America for these, weird? >>

I believe there were difficults getting buyers for the ingots (relatively high price) and melting them to use to strike these coins was considered a better avenue for ultimately selling the gold.

edix2001 · June 21, 2011 7:06AM

Here's the mintage info:
http://www.gmmnut.com/gmm/gmm44.html#honey

PerryHall · June 21, 2011 7:07AM

<< 

<< They actually melted ingots from the Central America for these, weird? >>

I believe there were difficults getting buyers for the ingots (relatively high price) and melting them to use to strike these coins was considered a better avenue for ultimately selling the gold. >>

The only bars involved were the very large bars that were essentially only worth melt. They did cut off the "face plate" with all the stamped markings (refiner, weight, fineness, serial number, etc) and put these face plates in fancy frames and sold them separately.

MrBear · June 21, 2011 9:02AM

I had just gotten back into coin collecting when these things came out. Gold was around $300, and they were selling these commemoratives for around $5000, IIRC. I was wandering around the ANA show in LA two years ago and a dealer had one with the box (and screwdriver!) selling it for $2900. I traded him some bullion I was carrying, and about $1300 in cash.

I'm planning on buying a condo this year, so it may get liquidated for the downpayment...

Zoins · June 21, 2011 9:06AM

<< I had just gotten back into coin collecting when these things came out. Gold was around $300, and they were selling these commemoratives for around $5000, IIRC. I was wandering around the ANA show in LA two years ago and a dealer had one with the box (and screwdriver!) selling it for $2900. I traded him some bullion I was carrying, and about $1300 in cash.

I'm planning on buying a condo this year, so it may get liquidated for the downpayment... >>

Looks like you got a nice bump with the increase in bullion prices. Good luck on your condo!

TheBigB · June 21, 2011 9:08AM

<< 

<< 

<< They actually melted ingots from the Central America for these, weird? >>

I believe there were difficults getting buyers for the ingots (relatively high price) and melting them to use to strike these coins was considered a better avenue for ultimately selling the gold. >>

The only bars involved were the very large bars that were essentially only worth melt. They did cut off the "face plate" with all the stamped markings (refiner, weight, fineness, serial number, etc) and put these face plates in fancy frames and sold them separately. >>

Thanks for the update, that makes sense about using the large ingots, I feel better now.

Zoins · June 21, 2011 9:09AM

Does anyone have a preference for:

(a) Quintuple Eagle
(b) Half Union

Just curious

TheBigB · June 21, 2011 9:11AM

Are these true restrikes, did they really use the original dies?

Zoins · June 21, 2011 9:15AM

<< Are these true restrikes, did they really use the original dies? >>

They had the original dies (from the California Historical Society?) present which they used to create transfer dies. The transfer dies are slightly different as shown by the words "CENTRAL AMERICA GOLD CHS" on the ribbon in the eagle's beak.

TheBigB · June 21, 2011 9:20AM

<< 

<< Are these true restrikes, did they really use the original dies? >>

They had the original dies (from the California Historical Society?) present which they used to create transfer dies. The transfer dies are slightly different as shown by the words "CENTRAL AMERICA GOLD CHS" on the ribbon in the eagle's beak. >>

Thank you. The paper work is a bit misleading then, these are sort of non-restrikes, not using original dies, not made under original authority.

Zoins · June 21, 2011 9:23AM

<< 

<< 

<< Are these true restrikes, did they really use the original dies? >>

They had the original dies (from the California Historical Society?) present which they used to create transfer dies. The transfer dies are slightly different as shown by the words "CENTRAL AMERICA GOLD CHS" on the ribbon in the eagle's beak. >>

Thank you. The paper work is a bit misleading then, these are sort of non-restrikes, not using original dies, not made under original authority. >>

You need to do a little marketing when you are charging $5,000 for $750 worth of gold, but to be fair, they did disclose the nature of the transfer dies. Sales and marketing aside, they probably didn't want to accidentally destroy the original dies engraved by Ferdinand Gruner, which are collector items themselves now. The dies were actually owned by Donald Kagin a while ago. I'm not sure if he was the one that loaned out the dies or who owns them now.

TheBigB · June 21, 2011 9:38AM

<< You need to do a little marketing when you are charging $5,000 for $750 worth of gold. Sales and marketing aside, they probably didn't want to accidentally destroy the original dies, which are collector items themselves now. The dies were actually owned by Donald Kagin a while ago. I'm not sure if he was the one that loaned out the dies or who owns them now. >>

Good information, I do like the coins even though they are just fancy bullion. I assume the original dies were in no condition for this project, unfortunately these look too perfect.

Zoins · June 21, 2011 9:41AM

<< 

<< You need to do a little marketing when you are charging $5,000 for $750 worth of gold. Sales and marketing aside, they probably didn't want to accidentally destroy the original dies, which are collector items themselves now. The dies were actually owned by Donald Kagin a while ago. I'm not sure if he was the one that loaned out the dies or who owns them now. >>

Good information, I do like the coins even though they are just fancy bullion. >>

Nothing wrong with bullion with recent price moves

<< I assume the original dies were in no condition for this project, unfortunately these look too perfect. >>

They likely could have been used for a certain number of strikes, but there's probably a high likelihood they would be damaged as well. Sometimes, it's better not to chance it.

PerryHall · June 21, 2011 9:43AM

While the coin was still in the obverse die they struck the actual date that the coin was struck. The die was modified enough so they wouldn't need to add "COPY" to the coin which would have greatly reduced its desirability in the marketplace.

Zoins · June 21, 2011 9:47AM

<< While the coin was still in the obverse die they struck the actual date that the coin was struck. The die was modified enough so they wouldn't need to add "COPY" to the coin which would have greatly reduced its desirability in the marketplace. >>

Would they have needed to add COPY if they were actual restrikes? It's been a while since I've read the HPA

PerryHall · June 21, 2011 9:51AM

<< 

<< While the coin was still in the obverse die they struck the actual date that the coin was struck. The die was modified enough so they wouldn't need to add "COPY" to the coin which would have greatly reduced its desirability in the marketplace. >>

Would they have needed to add COPY if they were actual restrikes? It's been a while since I've read the HPA

>>

No. Actual restrikes would involve using the original dies. I can certainly understand their reluctance to use the original dies to strike several thousand coins since the risk of the die cracking/breaking/shattering increases the more the dies are used.

Zoins · June 21, 2011 10:01AM

It seems like the ones from the transfer dies sell for melt now.

I wonder how much real restrikes would be worth.

mrearlygold · June 21, 2011 10:44AM

It would seem that the wholesale premiums on these have declined in recent months. Once upon a time I didn't have a problem paying a premium as there was a long list of people waiting to buy them. But like other generic gold which whose premiums have declined, so have these. I think they are a very attractive gold coin and there's lots of gold and "neatness" to them. But the premiums have slipped and now I'm selling them for what I used to pay for them ( premium wise) depending on the market at the time.

Weiss · June 21, 2011 10:49AM

Nobody asked, but in my opinion those are dreadful.

DNADave · June 21, 2011 11:08AM

Is the "struck september..." part on the reverse counterstamped into the coin?

Zoins · June 21, 2011 11:16AM

<< Is the "struck september..." part on the reverse counterstamped into the coin? >>

Yes, it's a counterstamp and specific to the day struck. I'm generally not a fan of small counterstamps like these and prefer the one without the counterstamp:

However, I will say the 11th is a historic date which makes those struck on that day more interesting.

It would have been nice if they gave it a dual date "1857-1987" as a reference to the sinking and discovery.

PerryHall · June 22, 2011 12:26AM

<< Nobody asked, but in my opinion those are dreadful. >>

I own one and I consider it to be very a attractive coin and, at 2 1/2 ozs, it's a very impressive coin.

291fifth · June 22, 2011 12:28AM

They are not coins, they are medals.

TheBigB · June 22, 2011 12:40AM

<< They are not coins, they are medals. >>

You say medal, yet there is a denomination in dollars.

Is this a job for the Feds, like the NORFED case, with you all supporting an alternate currency?

I'm signing out.

PerryHall · June 22, 2011 1:13AM

<< They are not coins, they are medals. >>

Whatever. They have their full weight of gold equal to the denomination using pre-1933 gold values.

Rajosco · August 18, 2018 8:25AM

Here are the mintages.

These coins are a bit famous for another reason. Tommy Thompson was given 500 of the total mintage, which he personally appropriated when he went into hiding, and which are thought to be hidden somewhere in Belize. He is currently sitting in jail because he refuses to reveal the whereabouts or assist in the recovery of these coins. The counterstruck dates of these missing 500 have not been published to date,

northcoin · August 20, 2018 9:12AM

@PerryHall said:
While the coin was still in the obverse die they struck the actual date that the coin was struck. The die was modified enough so they wouldn't need to add "COPY" to the coin which would have greatly reduced its desirability in the marketplace.

Just to clarify, I assume this is not suggesting that the obverse die above referenced was the original obverse die? (If it was that would make these at least half restrikes,)

PerryHall · August 20, 2018 9:22AM

The original dies weren't used. After the coin was struck, the coin was left in the obverse die so that when the actual date the coin was made was counter stamped into the reverse of the coin the obverse of the coin wouldn't be flattened. It's the same procedure that the US Mint used when they counter stamped "CAL." into the reverse of a special run of 1848 gold quarter eagles using gold from the gold fields of the California gold rush.

Zoins · August 20, 2018 9:39AM

The original dies were used, but some more information is useful.

For these pieces the original dies were used to create the striking dies using a physical die transfer process via pantograph by Ron Landis. Both proof and business strike dies were made.
Some actual restrikes were also made at the time using the original dies. @Rajosco's screenshot mentions 7 actual restrikes and @Regulated mentioned 10 earlier.

The Ron Landis proof dies are now in my collection.

Wabbit2313 · August 20, 2018 10:00AM

It only took 7 years for the answer!

PerryHall · August 20, 2018 12:50PM

@Zoins said:
The Ron Landis proof dies are now in my collection.

Very cool.
Were the dies cancelled in some manner?

RogerB · August 20, 2018 1:37PM

"Gimmick" tokens worth their full weight in gold. Cute, but that's all.

segoja · August 20, 2018 2:20PM

These are NOT 2.5oz Pure. They are 2.419. Makes a difference in the value, as they trade at melt. Try selling one and see what numbers you are quoted.

The coin itself shows 1309 grains of .887 pure.

PerryHall · August 20, 2018 2:56PM

@segoja said:
These are NOT 2.5oz Pure. They are 2.419. Makes a difference in the value, as they trade at melt. Try selling one and see what numbers you are quoted.

The coin itself shows 1309 grains of .887 pure.

Where can I buy these at melt? I'd like to buy a few.

Zoins · August 20, 2018 9:58PM

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:
The Ron Landis proof dies are now in my collection.

Very cool.

Thanks! I like them. The proof fields are especially nice to look at.

Were the dies cancelled in some manner?

Yes, they are X cancelled. Similar to Dan's 1964 Morgan dollar dies.

northcoin · August 20, 2018 10:46PM

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:
The Ron Landis proof dies are now in my collection.

Very cool.

Thanks! I like them. The proof fields are especially nice to look at.

Were the dies cancelled in some manner?

Yes, they are X cancelled. Similar to Dan's 1964 Morgan dollar dies.

By chance could you share a photo of the cancelled dies? (I have one of the commemorative coins made from the dies.)

Zoins · August 21, 2018 8:42AM

@northcoin said:

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:
The Ron Landis proof dies are now in my collection.

Very cool.

Thanks! I like them. The proof fields are especially nice to look at.

Were the dies cancelled in some manner?

Yes, they are X cancelled. Similar to Dan's 1964 Morgan dollar dies.

By chance could you share a photo of the cancelled dies? (I have one of the commemorative coins made from the dies.)

I can, but it might take a little time as I don't have one readily available. Glad to hear you have one. I like the workmanship and think they are a nicely done.

SS Central America: Kellogg $50 Quintuple Eagle Restrikes

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