Couple questions for the "green bean" fans....

RB1026 · June 18, 2011 6:12AM

If you have a coin graded by one TPG that has a CAC sticker on it and you send it to another TPG for a potential crossover, is there any mechanism at CAC for such a thing? Or is it back to square one with CAC presuming the coins crosses and now has no sticker?

For example, a coin in an "ATS" holder with green bean is an XF-40 and it is submitted to PCGS. They agree and cross it at the same grade. Will CAC recognize this or must you submit it to CAC fresh as a "new" coin.

Also, is a coin in a TPG holder with CAC sticker generally assured to cross? I understand that these 3 entities are separate businesses but as they are the most respected and seemingly professional in the business the standard seems to be pretty close. So, a Morgan in MS65 at one place with CAC approval would seem to be a coin that should cross. Is this the case?

I have zero experience with CAC so all points of view are welcomed. Thanks!

dragon · June 18, 2011 6:33AM

<<< Also, is a coin in a TPG holder with CAC sticker generally assured to cross? >>>

Definitely not, nothing is assured. I'm not even sure the graders see the sticker during the crossover process.

BAJJERFAN · June 18, 2011 6:46AM

A coin that is NGC 40 CAC that crosses to PCGS 40 is not guaranteed to get a CAC sticker in the new holder. Even if you send in photographic proof along with the coin, the coin will likely be re-examined on its own merits.

questor54 · June 18, 2011 7:02AM

<< A coin that is NGC 40 CAC that crosses to PCGS 40 is not guaranteed to get a CAC sticker in the new holder. Even if you send in photographic proof along with the coin, the coin will likely be re-examined on its own merits. >>

Which is as it should be, because there is no telling what happened to the coin when it is out of the holder, for however brief a period.

scottgardener · June 18, 2011 8:51AM

PCGS, NGC, and CAC are each independent of each other. Each grading submission is a fresh opinion. PCGS and NGC each back up their own opinion but have no obligations to each others'. Each submission to CAC should be treated as a completely new instance, with no memory of previous approval or disapproval.

There are the logical IF/THEN arguments: a coin crossed over at the same grade can either pass or fail CAC; one that upgrades can either pass or fail but is likely to fail; one that downgrades can pass or fail but is likely to pass and could conceivably gold-bean; etc.

But, here's how it works in the real world. A coin grades on the basis of its merits. A coin that CAC'ed before at a set grade is likely to do it again, for the same reason it did the first time. If it fails to the second time around, then it was a borderline case. (On the fence between "B-" and "C+".)

As PCGS and NGC continue to adopt surface scanning technologies--PCGS' Coin Sniffer and whatever the heck NGC is using--we can expect over time the doctored coins to weed out, improving chances of graded coins to get beaned--as opposed to the coin collector getting beaned.

frnklnlvr · June 19, 2011 2:22AM

<< A coin that is NGC 40 CAC that crosses to PCGS 40 is not guaranteed to get a CAC sticker in the new holder. Even if you send in photographic proof along with the coin, the coin will likely be re-examined on its own merits. >>

At one time they would automatically resticker a coin that crossed at the same grade if you provided pics/cert. #. When did they stop doing this?

AnkurJ · June 19, 2011 2:46AM

Nothing is guaranteed to sticker once crossed. Though I have resubmitted after going NGC to Pcgs, and they did sticker. In both cases the coins upgraded as well. But as with everything, there is a constantly changing standard. So something that stickered last year will not necessarily sticker today.

roadrunner · June 19, 2011 2:51AM

While nothing is guaranteed, I think in most instances that with photographic proof and a trail of cert numbers that CAC would resticker such a coin in a new holder assuming the grade/attributions aren't higher than before. Unlike PCGS they aren't guaranteeing the grade on the coin, only that they would be ready bidders/buyers of such a coin if offered to them.
But the coin, not the sticker.

roadrunner

crypto79 · June 19, 2011 2:51AM

I don't think I agree with what most of you are saying, I was told if I submitted CAC coins for reholdering or Variety attribution I could get them re-CAC'ed. I wouldn't see a difference if the reholder consisted of a NGC>PCGS holder or vice verse. Does anyone know for sure or are you just guessing and acting like it is fact?

tradedollarnut · June 19, 2011 2:55AM

There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering.

Sonorandesertrat · June 19, 2011 2:57AM

<< There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering. >>

PerryHall · June 19, 2011 3:05AM

<< There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering. >>

Agree. Crack out means a re-evaluation before a re-stickering. That said, does CAC keep a photgraphic record of the coins they evaluate? If they don't, how would they even know where the raw coin came from. I can't imagine they would take the word of the submitter that it was originally in a CAC stickered PCGS or NGC slab.

curly · June 19, 2011 3:10AM

<< There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering. >>

Wrong brother, you submit for crossover with the coin in the stickered slab, enter the old certification# on the form. If the coin crossed at the same grade, send it off to CAC with a copy of the submission form for a resticker.

Please refer to my post on "Does PCGS Secureplus equal or surpass CAC". I don't know how to link.

PerryHall · June 19, 2011 3:53AM

<< 

<< There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering. >>

Wrong brother, you submit for crossover with the coin in the stickered slab, enter the old certification# on the form. If the coin crossed at the same grade, send it off to CAC with a copy of the submission form for a resticker.

Please refer to my post on "Does PCGS Secureplus equal or surpass CAC". I don't know how to link. >>

How does CAC know that your copy of that submission form goes with that particular new slab? I can't imagine CAC would sticker a new slab without at least giving it a cursory examination of the coin.

BAJJERFAN · June 19, 2011 4:21AM

<< 

<< 

<< There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering. >>

Wrong brother, you submit for crossover with the coin in the stickered slab, enter the old certification# on the form. If the coin crossed at the same grade, send it off to CAC with a copy of the submission form for a resticker.

Please refer to my post on "Does PCGS Secureplus equal or surpass CAC". I don't know how to link. >>

How does CAC know that your copy of that submission form goes with that particular new slab? I can't imagine CAC would sticker a new slab without at least giving it a cursory examination of the coin. >>

If both parties were willing to go to the extra work, they could tell from your shared order page. I agree that I think they'd at least look at the coin. If you resubmit a coin that didn't sticker the first time they give it another look, they don't automatically reject it. I think they charge for repeats whether the coin stickers or not.

keyman64 · June 19, 2011 4:33AM

You could at least send CAC the crackout with Green Bean so they adjust their populations maybe? Maybe get the pops adjusted with the other TPG as well. And then when the coin is in the PCGS holder...at HOPEFULLY the same grade you can send that to CAC and hopefully they will still think it deserves a Green Bean.

AngryTurtle · June 20, 2011 6:21AM

<< Does anyone know for sure or are you just guessing and acting like it is fact? >>

tradedollarnut · June 20, 2011 6:41AM

<< 

<< There is no way for CAC to know if the coin was submitted for crossover in the holder ... or cracked out and monkeyed with and then crossed raw. Therefore, logically, there should be no automatic restickering. >>

Wrong brother, you submit for crossover with the coin in the stickered slab, enter the old certification# on the form. If the coin crossed at the same grade, send it off to CAC with a copy of the submission form for a resticker.

Please refer to my post on "Does PCGS Secureplus equal or surpass CAC". I don't know how to link. >>

How does CAC know that the coin crossed on that submission? Or that it didn't cross on that submission, was subsequently cracked, monkeyed with and resubmitted raw?

relicsncoins · June 20, 2011 7:28AM

I couldn't answer as I live in a state that is home to the ANA headquarters, home to a U.S. mint and home to a large collecting public but not home to a submission center.

curly · June 20, 2011 9:46AM

OK brothers, here is how it works. Let's say you are submitting an NGC, CAC, coin for crossover.

You list it on a PCGS submission form with the NGC certification # and send it in. PCGS assigns an order # to it that is different than the submission #.

If it crosses, PCGS cracks it out and puts it in a PCGS holder, returns the coin to you in the new holder and also returns the old NGC cert.

You then send the coin to CAC along with the receipts you received from PCGS.

CAC checks the old NGC cert # against their records.

If everything matches up, you get a CAC sticker.

Now I know someone is going to come up with something happening out of the ordinary and I don't know what would happen in one of those instances. I believe quality control is very tight all the way through the process.

Also understand I am not speaking for PCGS, NGC or CAC. I am just relating the facts as I understand them. And if your read my post in another thread you'll see that mistakes can, and do, happen. I have nothing but the highest regard for all three services.

BAJJERFAN · June 20, 2011 9:56AM

<< OK brothers, here is how it works. Let's say you are submitting an NGC, CAC, coin for crossover.

You list it on a PCGS submission form with the NGC certification # and send it in. PCGS assigns an order # to it that is different than the submission #.

If it crosses, PCGS cracks it out and puts it in a PCGS holder, returns the coin to you in the new holder and also returns the old NGC cert.

You then send the coin to CAC along with the receipts you received from PCGS.

CAC checks the old NGC cert # against their records.

If everything matches up, you get a CAC sticker.

Now I know someone is going to come up with something happening out of the ordinary and I don't know what would happen in one of those instances. I believe quality control is very tight all the way through the process.

Also understand I am not speaking for PCGS, NGC or CAC. I am just relating the facts as I understand them. And if your read my post in another thread you'll see that mistakes can, and do, happen. I have nothing but the highest regard for all three services. >>

Then again had something happened to the coin during the time it was unholdered, it likely wouldn't have made it into a PCGS holder.

tradedollarnut · June 20, 2011 10:51AM

<< OK brothers, here is how it works. Let's say you are submitting an NGC, CAC, coin for crossover.

You list it on a PCGS submission form with the NGC certification # and send it in. PCGS assigns an order # to it that is different than the submission #.

If it crosses, PCGS cracks it out and puts it in a PCGS holder, returns the coin to you in the new holder and also returns the old NGC cert.

You then send the coin to CAC along with the receipts you received from PCGS.

CAC checks the old NGC cert # against their records.

If everything matches up, you get a CAC sticker.

Now I know someone is going to come up with something happening out of the ordinary and I don't know what would happen in one of those instances. I believe quality control is very tight all the way through the process.

Also understand I am not speaking for PCGS, NGC or CAC. I am just relating the facts as I understand them. And if your read my post in another thread you'll see that mistakes can, and do, happen. I have nothing but the highest regard for all three services. >>

Not having submitted too many coins myself for crossover, I'm speaking a bit off the cuff here - but what is there to show that the specific coin crossed that specific time? Everytime I've submitted and gotten a coin crossed, I've received a copy of the submittal and the coin either in the new PCGS holder or with a plastic cover over the NGC holder that says DNC. I can't recall there being any designation on the original paperwork about the coin crossing or not crossing.

So my question is: what prevents one from submitting the coin in the holder and when it doesn't cross then cracking it and messing with it and resubmitting it raw and then when it crosses sending it back to CAC with the FIRST submission form that shows it being submitted in the holder? Perhaps someone who submits more crossovers can answer that...

curly · June 20, 2011 11:24AM

So my question is: what prevents one from submitting the coin in the holder and when it doesn't cross then cracking it and messing with it and resubmitting it raw and then when it crosses sending it back to CAC with the FIRST submission form that shows it being submitted in the holder? Perhaps someone who submits more crossovers can answer that... >>

Because you are not crossing a coin when you submit it raw and it is so stated on the submission form that you send in. In this instance, the coin will have to stand on it's own if you submit it on to CAC.

Once again, when you attempt to cross an NGC, CAC, coin to PCGS, the NGC cert # is written down. If it crosses, the new PCGS coin is then returned to you along with the old NGC insert. You then send to CAC the paper work proving that this coin is in fact the same coin that they stickered while it was in an NGC holder.

Now brothers, remember, I am only going on what happened to me and I am not speaking for any of the TPGs or CAC.

Edited: After re-reading your question. I don't know what would happen in that instance. I'm sure that CACj has some quality control that would catch that. You might do better to ask John that question.

Bear · June 21, 2011 9:30AM

Maybe I aughta come up with a bear paw print for exceptional coins.

I would only charge 10 jelly donutes for the service and bear paw coins are

excepted wherever you find bears........friendly bears. If you want to sell to people

then PCGS is probably best.

Couple questions for the "green bean" fans....

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Couple questions for the &quot;green bean&quot; fans....

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Couple questions for the "green bean" fans....