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1909-O Barber Quarter
cameron12x
Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭
1909 was the last year of operation for the New Orleans mint.
I've read that there are only a dozen or so AU 1909-O quarters extant, making this issue extremely difficult to find in higher circulated grades.
Post your best (circulated) example!
I've read that there are only a dozen or so AU 1909-O quarters extant, making this issue extremely difficult to find in higher circulated grades.
Post your best (circulated) example!
0
Comments
There's always a potential supply of "new" AU's from the hundreds of MS61-63 coins that exist. A year spent in one's pocket and there should
be plenty of high point rub to downgrade the coin to AU. No doubt a tough coin in VF-AU but the plentiful supply of uncs has a bearing on this.
If one has to have a well matched and deeply original XF-45 in their set, then that's going to be tough to find or manufacture. But if the price goes
high enough, individuals will take those mint state coins and see what they can come up with.
roadrunner
In VF (26 in all VF grades), XF (5 total graded in both XF grades), and AU (9 in all AU grades) this coin is extremely difficult. The pop reports have seen really no changes in the past 10 years except for an occasional isolated MS addition and probably won't see many increases.
In the past 8 year I have not handled a true AU, one XF and 2 VF's not including the F15 I currently have. The typical grades you see these in are AG-VG when you do find them. And this is a date I always look for at every show I attend.
Here is the current PCGS F15 I have.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
You obviously hit a lot more shows than I do, but like you, I always look for this date as well.
In 3 years I have bought one VG+ and a nice Fine. There was a fellow at FUN that had 4 of these in Fine and up,
but all were raw, cleaned, overgraded, and priced over moon money. These 4 and the 2 I bought are the only ones
I've seen at shows.
one AU 58 details - cleaned and retoned -
which I sent off to ANACS - and eventually
sold to Rich Uhrich a couple of years ago;
the other is a MS 64 which I picked up from
John Marberger - the nicest looking AU example
is in Labelman87's set...
PCGS 55 with a Gold CAC Sticker.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>At present there are 5 AU58's and a total of 9 in all AU grades, 83 total in all mint state grades with 49 of those MS64 or higher and 34 MS61-63's between NGC and PCGS so there aren't hundreds of this truly rare date available. There could be a few raw ungraded examples out there but the 1909-O is fairly well known among the collector community as a true rarity. But there is also potential inflated numbers do to crackouts, regrades and crossovers. >>
I don't give so much creedence to pop reports equating to total supply existing. Barbers at the turn of the century were saved in multiple roll quantities, for all dates. There's plenty more hiding out there in the hands of people who are not concerned about certifying their coins at this time. Look at the quantities of old gold still coming in from overseas. Obviously,
the people selling today weren't worried about slabbing their coins by 1990, by 2000, or even by 2010. I did surveys of mint state Barber dimes through halves offered at auction from
the later 1970's into the early 1980's. The 1909-0 quarter did not stand out from the earlier New Orleans issues of 1896 through 1904. It was nothing special, but it was better in MS than
most of the O mints of 1892-1895 and 1905-1908. Yeah, it's a scarce date even in unc. But I feel that maybe only 20-30% of all uncs have been seen by the TPG's. And that would mean there are hundreds in existence. The pop reports are a decent comparative tool but fall far short of being a census for all coins extant. A .03% survival rate of uncs is not far-fetched imo, especially for a low mintage, final year of issue coin that typically gets over-saved. However, what survives in circ condition has nothing to do with the above mint state analysis. I never said it did. But I also know there are a lot of circ coins out there that owners feel no need to have certified.
When looking at PCGS seated quarter pops it shows a huge lack of coin in the circ grades. And that's because the holders of those coins, including many scarce and underrated dates, see no reason to send them in. They've been in strong hands since the 1970's or 1980's and there's no reason to sell a majority of them, bring them to shows, or have them slabbed. The 1867-s quarter for example, a date I followed very closely for years, shows a PCGS pop of a couple of dozen coins. Yet I know from my surveys that the number extant is probably in the 125-200 range. Even after 25 yrs of grading, only a fraction of specimens have been bothered to be sent in. I don't think the 1909-0 quarter is exempt from this. What's even more illogical is that the 1909-0 in my older pop report shows only 8 circ coins vs. 11 for the 1867-s...suggesting the 09-0 is "rarer" in circ. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth considering the survival rates from 1867 were far tougher than from 1909, not to mention a 15X diff in mintage. Even the 1901-s shows 82 circ specimens graded. And we know why that disparity exists. All I'm trying to say is that there a lot more out there of both dates in grades of Fine or better. I know at one time I hoarded about a dozen Fine-XF 1867-s quarters knowing how underrated they were. Any chance those holding mini-hoards of 09-0's have no interest in driving the price of their coins down by getting them slabbed?
roadrunner
WOW, i feel like i own a true rarity now lol
A couple of thoughts:
Branch mint coins weren't saved in roll quantities in this period, they went into circulation.
I would estimate 70% of the extant number of true Uncs. have been seen by the TPG's based upon the tiny changes over the past 10 years in the Pop reports, which I agree are imperfect, but they are indicative. Agree to disagree here.
I know of two hoards of 20-30 coins each, not one of which will grade because of damage/cleaning. Could there be a couple of other hoards out there?
Sure thats a possibility but the number of coins that would be acceptable to grade would I suspect be 1 out of 30 or less in such hoards.
All I can tell you is, I search for this date extensively and never find it. It's tough!
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I was fortunate to pick one up a couple of years ago.
Rob
If 1909 Lincolns of all mints and varieties could be saved in huge quantities (ie thousands), then why not a few rolls each of 1909-P,D,S,O silver coinage? 1909 being a key transition year for coinage, and the last year of New Orleans coinage, why not save some coinage? Even the relatively "expensive" and rare 1909-0 $5 gold (34K minted) was saved in unc to the tune of at least 50-100 coins.
roadrunner
Resides in my Lowball Type set...had a Pop 1/74 when I got it, now 1/148
PCGS VG08
My Ebay
1934-1958 RB Lincoln Short Set
While the POSSIBILITY that unc rolls of early and/or key dates exists, the PROBABILITY is likely pretty low, with perhaps a few exceptions. And even those that were set aside, how many have become lost, damaged, or destroyed over the years? I guess the point of my commentary is that should numismatists wait forever, or refuse to pay a high price, because there may be hoard of scarce dates of a certain series that may suddenly appear on the market? Just some rambling thoughts on a warm Sunday afternoon....
If 1909 Lincolns of all mints and varieties could be saved in huge quantities (ie thousands), then why not a few rolls each of 1909-P,D,S,O silver coinage? 1909 being a key transition year for coinage, and the last year of New Orleans coinage, why not save some coinage? Even the relatively "expensive" and rare 1909-0 $5 gold (34K minted) was saved in unc to the tune of at least 50-100 coins.
Q. David Bowers is certainly a great resource and someone who has my utmost respect. I also respect your view as you have done a lot study and are one of the best posters on here over the years.
Just a couple of considerations from my alternative thesis:
I wouldn't disagree roll sets by date were likely put aside in the Northeast, but thus being P mint coins. Collecting by mintmark wasn't significant until around WW1 from most readings I have seen.
Quarters bought a lot then with the average US wage being $750/year, so setting aside or putting together a roll of 1909 lincoln cents was popular for being first year of issue and a lot less money, 50 cents vs $10. On the other end of the spectrum silver dollars sat for decades in bags and rolls in banks or at the Treasury/Fed Banks as they circulated only in some areas of the country, principally in the Western States. So roll quantities of silver dollars and cents I would completely agree were set aside by chance of non-circulation or a new issue cent.
Also remember New Orleans coins had been made continuously throughout the Barber series whereas the gold was very sporadic and the 1909-O $5 was the only $5 Indian made there. From the 1970-1980's has been 30 years now too. If there were roll quantities or put together rolls I would suspect many have trickled into the marketplace over this time.
Could be out there but are they today?
And how many of even the put together rolls avoided cleaning etc?
My feeling is not many.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>For the right amount of $$$, I'll crack out my MS64 and rub the cheek a lil bit and maybe turn it into a pop 1 AU58+
Send that MS64 over here Mike and I'll rub it between my AG03 & VG08
Interesting thread
My Ebay
1934-1958 RB Lincoln Short Set
<< <i>For the right amount of $$$, I'll crack out my MS64 and rub the cheek a lil bit and maybe turn it into a pop 1 AU58+
You may get a bout of bad luck and end up with a MS62...lol. The TPG's have a habit of giving pre-1917 silver coins MS status if they are fully lustrous everywhere but on the high points and the fields don't have that typical circulated scuffiness to them.
PonyExpress8 has many valid points. Would be nice to hear from connected dealers who know what is still buried out there. But they're probably sworn to secrecy or don't want to alert
other bloodhounds to a trail only they or very few know about.
roadrunner
<< <i>I have owned two 1909-O Quarters -
one AU 58 details - cleaned and retoned -
which I sent off to ANACS - and eventually
sold to Rich Uhrich a couple of years ago;
the other is a MS 64 which I picked up from
John Marberger - the nicest looking AU example
is in Labelman87's set...
PCGS 55 with a Gold CAC Sticker. >>
Craig posted the images of his PCGS 55 Gold CAC coin on another Barber Thread...
so... here it is:
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
<< <i>It's early, Jeff - wait until the Barberites awaken - there have been a few monsters posted on the MegaThread over the years. >>
And indeed they did awaken, Greg!
I was away all day and returned to a most interesting thread!
Purchased raw and holdered by PCGS in 2008 as 45. I sold it.
I currently have a VF30 in a Dansco which is a nice coin, but I've heard reports of some hoards in VF. Brian Greer said he brought 20 or so to Central States show in 2005 and was selling them for $300 each.
They're tough if you can't find one I suppose.
Doug
I know Vern was a huge fan of it, but also a dealer. When I got the request to release it from the registry, which I'd forgotten about and was inactive, I figured it was coming to a local.
Yes it's really wholesome.
With your permission, I'll leave the image on this thread, and consider it my swan-song!
Doug
Doug: you know I like your 55!
Having just gotten up to speed on this thread - with much quality information in it - my two cents in Barber Quarter experience from 1973 to present suggests that the 1909-O in grades VF-25's to AU-58's approximate 30 to 35. I have owned two including a cleaned unc (see below) that I have sold. I was the under bidder on the Heritage pcgs 58. I don't have much expertise in the low and BU grades.
My biggest cry baby story is lot #235 in the 1975 Stack's James A. Stack collection, March, 1975. I held the 1909-O Quarter in my hand, didn't buy it ($440 hammer, no buyer fees in those days) and today it is that beautiful slabbed 68 that has been mention several times on the mega thread
Thanks to all for the good info
____________________
Craig
<< <i>Mike: Thanks for the pub.
Doug: you know I like your 55!
Having just gotten up to speed on this thread - with much quality information in it - my two cents in Barber Quarter experience from 1973 to present suggests that the 1909-O in grades VF-25's to AU-58's approximate 30 to 35. I have owned two including a cleaned unc (see below) that I have sold. I was the under bidder on the Heritage pcgs 58. I don't have much expertise in the low and BU grades.
My biggest cry baby story is lot #235 in the 1975 Stack's James A. Stack collection, March, 1975. I held the 1909-O Quarter in my hand, didn't buy it ($440 hammer, no buyer fees in those days) and today it is that beautiful slabbed 68 that has been mention several times on the mega thread
Thanks to all for the good info
___________________
Craig >>
I cried too when left the James Stack sale w/o my primary target, the gem 1867-s quarter. It fetched 2X what my "stupid" high estimate was. But I was able to finally buy it 11 yrs
later when the price came down to earth after the 1980 high. I remember that 1909-0 25c. The 1904-0 also had some wild toning. I think that 1909-s Barber half may have ended up in one of the prime time reg sets. Might have even been Duckor. A number of the James Stack Barber halves landed in Duckor.
Even at 30-35 pcs in VF25-AU58 would place the 1909-0 on par with a number of the better dated seated quarters from the 1850's to early 1870's...such as the 1867-s. I just can't see it being on par with those (ie similar survival rates with no periods of melting going on). I would think at least 2X or 3X that number. The seated coins had to go through several panics, several meltings, and the Civil War period. What would be the reason for a 99.995% attrition in the VF-AU coins? And why the 1909-0 and not other similarly lower mintage copper and silver coins of that era? The 1904-s Half is much coveted and has a lower mintage than the 09-0 quarter. Is it of similar rarity from VF-AU (ie 30-35 pcs left)? How about the 1909-0 half and dimes, both semi-scarce coins in their own right. How about the 1907-s, 08-s, and 09-s Barber quarters, all lower mintage dates. The 01-s Barber quarter probably has around 30-35 pcs known in VF-AU. I still can't get my arms around why the 1909-0 quarter is singled out. What caused it, and it alone to see this massive attrition around 1909?
roadrunner
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Craig your experiences have been similar to mine. The possibility of another 25-35 grade quality VF-AU coins could be certainly is present in existing sets. I suspect there would be many more non-gradeable though due to cleaning/damage, but note I am stating "grade quality" and not damaged/cleaned coins. The two hoards of approximately 30 coins each I am personally aware of have at most 1 grade-able coin each and just as likely none. I am aware of a 3rd hoard of nearly a roll but having personally seen it the highest coin was a VG10 with only about 4 or 5 grade quality. In the past 8 years of continuous searching for this specific coin, I have handled one raw one I felt would grade VF35 last year, the current F15 in inventory, and a raw one I just acquired which will be another F15 to VF20, soon to be graded. That's all folks!
I tend to lean towards my personal experience with a bit more weight as a highly active searcher for this coin. I also actively look for some of the seated quarters such as the 1867-S you cited earlier Roadrunner and they seem to be the same as the 09-O as to how often they turn up over the past few years.
Roadrunner, I think I am going to do a research paper/article on the 1909-O soon with your questions in mind. Another thought to your last thread post though, original mintages don't always correlate to present rarity today.
Probably not the greatest example but a very famous one, only 14 years earlier 12,000, 1895 $1's are recorded as having been produced in Philadelphia yet none are known to exist today. Most numismatic scholars accept they were produced so the mystery is what happened to them?
This thread is a topic along with other questions that makes numismatics so much fun today.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
<< <i>I think I am going to do a research paper/article on the 1909-O soon with your questions in mind. Another thought to your last thread post though, original mintages don't always correlate to present rarity today.
This thread is a topic along with other questions that makes numismatics so much fun today.
Awesome... we'll look forward to the paper/article!
Thanks to everyone who is contributing to this thread and to solving the potential mystery surrounding this issue with respect to its survivability in mid-grade (original) examples.
Rich, old people are hoarding all the nice, old coins instead of releasing some for us other collectors to enjoy. What a hobby.
_________
Craig
<< <i>Early tomorrow morning, when I'm back in the office I'll check my records. Somewhere I have part of the James A. Stack 09-O lineage. I will try to find the info and grade to add it to the post. Can't remember why I thought it was a 68
_________
Craig >>
The James Stack catalog mentions a planchet depression on the cheek of the 09-0. One would think that would limit the grade to a MS66 or MS67. The 1904-0 had a wondrous circle of sea-green and was bought out of that sale by Dave Akers of Paramount International Coin. It appeared in their summer catalog at around $2,000 to $3,000 if memory serves me correct. It sold for $850 in the sale. Those were the days. Akers also bought the 1865-s quarter out of the sale as well for mid-$2,000's. Neither coin lasted all that long in inventory even though 1975 was a recessionary year. You also didn't need a plastic holder to tell you how much to ask for your coins.
PE8, I think that maybe circ Barber's are still in their infancy as to how many are out there and what should they be worth. I watched seated quarters struggle with this back in the 70's and 80's. You could never find any out in display cases or on inventory sheets because the cat prices were so far behind what they were trading at. For example you would almost never run across a 74-cc dime for sale (or a 72-s quarter) because the cat prices were a joke. But you ran across a lot of the 73-cc and 72-cc because they had fat cat prices and were more available. So for most of the 70's, 80's, and 90's unheralded better dates got silently hoarded. It wasn't until seated price guides were doubled and tripled and quadrupled that these started showing up over the past 5 years. I think circ Barbers like the 09-0 25c still have to go through that phase. Guides like the grey sheet don't list that many mint marked pieces in Fine-XF at all that much higher than common dates. If the 1909-0 is of the same rarity in circ as the 67-s then it's VF price should be on the order of $500-$1200, not where it's currently at. But, time will tell as things start to adjust. But no doubt there are still seated hoards out there that could skew things down the road. The guy with around a hundred or more 70-cc halves comes to mind...if such a hoard exists. Mintage figures aren't necessarily accurate, but I'll place my money on 1909 mintage figures being potentially a lot more accurate than those from 1867. This has been an enjoyable discussion.
roadrunner
"I have - as well as all other Barberites - who are ardent collectors - know only too well that the 1909 date comes with a more heavily incused LIBERTY than previous years - and subsequent years as well."
Does this tougher grading standard also apply to the 1909-O Barber Quarter?
<< <i>MFH mentions in this 1909-O Barber Half thread that:
"I have - as well as all other Barberites - who are ardent collectors - know only too well that the 1909 date comes with a more heavily incused LIBERTY than previous years - and subsequent years as well."
Does this tougher grading standard also apply to the 1909-O Barber Quarter? >>
The Barber quarters were struck from three hub styles within the dates of 1892 (Type I), 1892-1900 (Type II) and 1900-1916 (Type III). The area around LIBERTY is not dramatically different on the hubs of the 1909 issues when compared to other dates within its range.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
A few of my thoughts on VF20-AU58 1909-O barber quarters:
I would estimate the gradeable population of VF20-VF35 coins at approx. 60-80, XF40-XF45 15-20, and AU50-AU58 20-25.
In 1992 David Lawrence sent me two VF 09-O quarters on approval, both were nice original coins. The price? My choice for $90!!!!
I think the XF population is lower than the AU population because XF is a small niche grade.
I've owned four VF, two XF, and one AU 09-O quarter in the last 20 years.
dogwood, I also owned the XF45 you made in 2008 for a short time. There's no doubt in my mind that the coin is AU, it was down graded because of it's lack of obverse luster.
It's great to hear all the opinions on the 09-O quarter, keep them coming!
As David Lawrence said, the 1909-O quarter is "one of the coins that make the Barber Quarter series great."
Doug
Doug: Thanks for the kind word. Your 09-O population seems a bit high to me but I don't get out to search as much as I would like to. I can tell you that back in the 70's and early 80's (when I handled many, many coins) the 09-O Quarter just wasn't there.
edit... Sorry, the James A. Stack 01-S Barber Quarter IS NOT the Lawrence specimen. I just can't recall the lineage currently. Must be advanced middle age
___________________
Craig
<< <i>
<< <i>MFH mentions in this 1909-O Barber Half thread that:
"I have - as well as all other Barberites - who are ardent collectors - know only too well that the 1909 date comes with a more heavily incused LIBERTY than previous years - and subsequent years as well."
Does this tougher grading standard also apply to the 1909-O Barber Quarter? >>
The Barber quarters were struck from three hub styles within the dates of 1892 (Type I), 1892-1900 (Type II) and 1900-1916 (Type III). The area around LIBERTY is not dramatically different on the hubs of the 1909 issues when compared to other dates within its range. >>
I was referring to the 1909 Half Dollars - as you posted a 1909-O Half in the previous thread.
There is no difference in the Quarter's Liberty from the previous - or - subsequent years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>MFH mentions in this 1909-O Barber Half thread that:
"I have - as well as all other Barberites - who are ardent collectors - know only too well that the 1909 date comes with a more heavily incused LIBERTY than previous years - and subsequent years as well."
Does this tougher grading standard also apply to the 1909-O Barber Quarter? >>
The Barber quarters were struck from three hub styles within the dates of 1892 (Type I), 1892-1900 (Type II) and 1900-1916 (Type III). The area around LIBERTY is not dramatically different on the hubs of the 1909 issues when compared to other dates within its range. >>
I was referring to the 1909 Half Dollars - as you posted a 1909-O Half in the previous thread.
There is no difference in the Quarter's Liberty from the previous - or - subsequent years. >>
Thank you very much for the clarification. That is exactly what I was looking for.