Is there a difference between a Terminal Die and a Shattered Die?

ThePennyLady · April 21, 2011 4:42AM

I've seen coins that had a description of a "shattered" die and other ones that were described as having a "terminal" die state and, to me, they look pretty similar. Is this just a difference in terminology or is there a significant difference in the die?

EagleEye · April 21, 2011 4:51AM

If you have a shattered die, a really shattered die and a really really shattered die, the terminal die stage would be the last one.

notwilight · April 21, 2011 4:51AM

Yes, not all terminal die states are shattered. It could just be severe erosion, one or two bad cracks cracks, or a significant cud.

--Jerry

MrHalfDime · April 21, 2011 4:53AM

A 'terminal' die state is generally considered to be the last state of the die used to produce coins, just before the die is retired from use. A 'shattered' die is merely any die that has extensive die cracks, and may or may not be the 'terminal' die state. I am always reluctant to use the term 'terminal' die state, as someone will invariably show me an example which is later in the emission sequence.

USMoneylover · April 21, 2011 4:53AM

Corrected

notwilight · April 21, 2011 4:59AM

<< <i>I'm no expert by any means, but my interpretation is a shattered die state is the result of continued use of a terminal die. >>

Not all dies will shatter. a properly annealed die should never crack. To shatter, a die needs to be brittle=too hard=inadequately annealed.

Of course if you over anneal it, it will be soft and erode quickly.

--Jerry

EagleEye · April 21, 2011 4:59AM

Shattered die state is not correct usage. "Shattered" die is a loose description, while die states are specific.

messydesk · April 21, 2011 5:00AM

Shattered is a physical description of the die. Terminal is a temporal description of the die's life. Neither the set of coins showing shattered dies nor the set of coins showing terminal die states is a subset of the other.

jhdfla · April 21, 2011 5:17AM

I would think it would be pretty tough to accurately call any coin a product of a terminal die state, not knowing for sure how many were struck after the example you have. Do all shattered dies fail? If so, then maybe the terms should be considered to be interchangeable?

This ones pretty shattered, how close to terminal I have no idea. Sorry it's not copper

RWB · April 21, 2011 5:57AM

Shattered = pieces missing
Terminal = so badly cracked that it likely fell apart not long after the subject coin was struck. Might have weak parts of design due to metal failure.

ThePennyLady · April 21, 2011 11:25AM

It's interesting (and telling) that there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on a distinction. I understand that a terminal die is probably one of the last strikings before the die fell apart, but it is not clear to me whether a shattered die is ALSO terminal since it too was probably very near the end of the striking process before it fell apart. Logically speaking, how could a shattered die last much longer? Wouldn't a shattered die also be considered pretty close to "terminal" as well? On the examples I've seen of a die being specifically called "terminal," the only difference that I saw from a "shattered" die was that a terminal die had larger and thicker cracks, and perhaps a chunk missing from the die.

messydesk · April 21, 2011 11:36AM

I'll rephrase what I said above. Terminal die states do not need to be shattered (e.g., it can be badly clashed, overpolished, and/or eroded). A die that is shattered is not necessarily the terminal die state of that die, as the die can deteriorate further after it shatters.

pontiacinf · April 21, 2011 11:51AM

wow excellent question Charmy

and thanks for all the answers, Im printing this out for the club so does anyone else have any
more example pics to share?

is there maybe a website with pictorials to this?

ThePennyLady · April 21, 2011 12:08PM

Here is an 1863 Indian cent that has shattered dies. (These are photos I took with my Dino Lite so they're not very good.)

this Conder token has a pretty dramatic "terminal" die state.

So, with these two examples, one can certainly see the difference but I am still wondering when and if "shattered" dies become "terminal" dies and if some people use the terms interchangeably.

RWB · April 21, 2011 10:38PM

A "shattered" die has already had pieces missing. Coins struck from that die will have blank areas.

You seem to be confusing the physical condition of the die, with how the dies was used. Both "shattered" and "terminal" refer to the die's condition, not to the pieces that might be struck from it.

ThePennyLady · April 22, 2011 12:21AM

<< <i>A "shattered" die has already had pieces missing. Coins struck from that die will have blank areas.

You seem to be confusing the physical condition of the die, with how the dies was used. Both "shattered" and "terminal" refer to the die's condition, not to the pieces that might be struck from it. >>

RWB, no, I am not confusing the difference between the die and the struck coin, but your response seems even more confusing to me since from what I've seen, shattered dies are the ones that have mostly cracks with no chunks missing, whereas coins struck from terminal dies seem to show indication that those dies might have very large cracks as well as pieces missing from the die. Perhaps that may be vone of the differences between the two terms?

MrHalfDime · April 22, 2011 12:25AM

I think messydesk gave the very best definitions of 'shattered die' and 'terminal die state' in his initial post, before he rephrased it:

"Shattered is a physical description of the die. Terminal is a temporal description of the die's life. Neither the set of coins showing shattered dies nor the set of coins showing terminal die states is a subset of the other."

Absolutely correct and rather well stated.

Not all shattered dies have pieces missing, as with a cud. A shattered die simply means a die with extensive die cracks. As messydesk states, this may or may not be a 'terminal die state', however.

ANACONDA · April 22, 2011 12:30AM

Little reminder from the government for those interested in revolution?

Nysoto · April 22, 2011 12:30AM

The CONECA definition of a shattered die is:

"Three or more die cracks radiating toward the center of the die, usually 90 degrees apart, indicates that the die has begun to shatter into several pieces."

"Terminal die state" is overused and usually in error, as true terminal die states are rare and often unique, and may only represent the latest known die stage, as 95+ % of US coins have not survived. "Late die stage" is usually more appropriate terminology.

These two quarters are from a shattered dies per CONECA's defintion, but they are not terminal, and not the latest die stage:

This coin is from a split die per CONECA's definition, but not terminal as there is a later die stage:

A full cud or split die may not be shattered, according to CONECA's terminology, depending on whether a third crack is present.

CaptHenway · April 22, 2011 12:39AM

<< <i>I think messydesk gave the very best definitions of 'shattered die' and 'terminal die state' in his initial post, before he rephrased it:

"Shattered is a physical description of the die. Terminal is a temporal description of the die's life. Neither the set of coins showing shattered dies nor the set of coins showing terminal die states is a subset of the other."

Absolutely correct and rather well stated.

Not all shattered dies have pieces missing, as with a cud. A shattered die simply means a die with extensive die cracks. As messydesk states, this may or may not be a 'terminal die state', however. >>

I like both of Messydesk's descriptions. Terminal means last die state known. Doesn't have to be shattered.

Being shattered just makes it easier to identify, which is why so many "terminal die state" coins happen to be struck from shattered dies. That may be why many people equate one with the other.

TD

ThePennyLady · April 22, 2011 4:10AM

Thank you for all the explanations, they are all very helpful. Personally, to me the CONECA definitions make sense to me. And perhaps the fact that we can't be sure if any more coins were actually struck frrom a so-called "terminal" die then using the phrase "late die stage" might be more appropriate.

Pistareen · April 22, 2011 5:54AM

To me, the only way to define a terminal die state is asymptotically. You can never define the absolute end of the line, but you can sure tell when it's close.

Through the blessings of C-clamps, a shattered die can actually produce one whole heck of a lot of coins. Indeed, if a die shatters in the cooling/quenching process, the shattered state could actually be the early die state! When pieces start falling out, you start curving towards terminal. At some point, a coiner starts whistling Boyz II Men "End of the Road," and pulls the die from service. Unless he saved a coin produced at the moment and labeled it as the last one struck, it's impossible to say exactly what the finalfinalfinalfinalfinal die state is.

But, like Whizzer White, sometimes you just know it when you see it.

RWB · April 22, 2011 10:27AM

RWB, no, I am not confusing the difference between the die and the struck coin, but your response seems even more confusing to me since from what I've seen, shattered dies are the ones that have mostly cracks with no chunks missing, whereas coins struck from terminal dies seem to show indication that those dies might have very large cracks as well as pieces missing from the die. Perhaps that may be vone of the differences between the two terms?

I'm using the "shattered" terminology that engraver Morgan used in Dec 1921, when high relief peace dollar dies fell apart in use. Shattered dies are, by definition, incomplete because pieces are missing. If all the pieces are present so that coins can be struck, the die might be in very poor shape, but it has not shattered into fragments. (The die can still produce a complete coin, regardless of the number of cracks.)

Maybe it is like the Breen-isms "wire edge" and "rolled edge" - nonsense terms that confuse more than describe.

SullivanNumismatics · April 22, 2011 1:10PM

I have always considered a "shattered die" to be a die which has 3 or more major die cracks which each start at the time and move inwards to the central area of the die. On a non-related note, although I cannot speak for earlier American coinage, 20th century coinage shattered dies are rare!

I agree with what others have said that it doesn't matter if a die is "shattered" or not; it doesn't necessarily have any bearing on if the die is "terminal" or not. A die could simply have incredibly worn out surfaces and no die cracks and be "terminal."

BaseballAbs · April 22, 2011 1:39PM

I agree with your last statement Penny Lady.

Is there a difference between a Terminal Die and a Shattered Die?

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