Grading and toning poll.

relicsncoins · April 19, 2011 10:46AM

What say you?

llafoe · April 19, 2011 10:54AM

The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader.

golfer72 · April 19, 2011 12:00PM

<< The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader. >>

BINGO!!!!!! You got it. The TPG's have no business changing grades based on toning. Its nonsense. Whether toning is attractive or not is completely subjective. Some people like this type, some dont.

MidLifeCrisis · April 19, 2011 12:08PM

<< 

<< The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader. >>

BINGO!!!!!! You got it. The TPG's have no business changing grades based on toning. Its nonsense. Whether toning is attractive or not is completely subjective. Some people like this type, some dont.

>>

Everything else about grading is completely subjective too.

DIMEMAN · April 19, 2011 12:12PM

Larry hit the nail on the head!!

Also, toning should NOT keep a coin from grading. They (graders) should just grade the coin and leave it up to the buyers if they like the color!

golfer72 · April 19, 2011 12:16PM

<< 

<< 

<< The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader. >>

BINGO!!!!!! You got it. The TPG's have no business changing grades based on toning. Its nonsense. Whether toning is attractive or not is completely subjective. Some people like this type, some dont.

>>

Everything else about grading is completely subjective too. >>

No it isnt. You can count marks, measure reflectivity, strike is pretty objective. Your statement is simply not true.

Tiny · April 19, 2011 12:42PM

Eye appeal makes the grade for the mind but toning touches the soul

Say What ??

… · April 19, 2011 12:44PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader. >>

BINGO!!!!!! You got it. The TPG's have no business changing grades based on toning. Its nonsense. Whether toning is attractive or not is completely subjective. Some people like this type, some dont.

>>

Everything else about grading is completely subjective too. >>

No it isnt. You can count marks, measure reflectivity, strike is pretty objective. Your statement is simply not true. >>

You wouldnt last a day in the grading room.

MidLifeCrisis · April 19, 2011 12:52PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader. >>

BINGO!!!!!! You got it. The TPG's have no business changing grades based on toning. Its nonsense. Whether toning is attractive or not is completely subjective. Some people like this type, some dont.

>>

Everything else about grading is completely subjective too. >>

No it isnt. You can count marks, measure reflectivity, strike is pretty objective. Your statement is simply not true. >>

OK.

By the way, how many marks does a VF coin have?

5? 6? What if a coin has 7 marks but great luster and strike?

How big do the marks have to be before they count?

Does a full strike equal a 70?

How exactly do you measure wear objectively from one coin to the next? Is it percentage? If so, are you just eye-balling that percentage and guessing? Do you use some sort of magic slide rule?

What equation do you use to factor in strike weakness when determining wear?

What's the difference between a brown and red-brown copper coin again? What if a brown coin has some red? What if a red coin has some brown?

If it's a science, not an art, why do we spend so much time debating grades?

Please enlighten me.

llafoe · April 19, 2011 12:55PM

<< If it's a science, not an art, why do we spend so much time debating grades? >>

Because we always have to be right!

MidLifeCrisis · April 19, 2011 12:56PM

<< 

<< If it's a science, not an art, why do we spend so much time debating grades? >>

Because we always have to be right!

>>

Some of us always are right so we don't need to debate.

MidLifeCrisis · April 19, 2011 12:58PM

llafoe · April 19, 2011 1:01PM

<< 

<< 

<< If it's a science, not an art, why do we spend so much time debating grades? >>

Because we always have to be right!

>>

Some of us always are right so we don't need to debate.

>>

Thank you for the compliment!

MidLifeCrisis · April 19, 2011 1:02PM

<< Thank you for the compliment!

>>

Hey, I'm here for you.

yellowkid · April 19, 2011 1:22PM

If it's a science, not an art, why do we spend so much time debating grades?

Because that's what we do here

Lehigh96 · April 19, 2011 1:38PM

Last time I checked, eye appeal was one of the four elements of grading. In the event that the toning has a phenomenal effect on eye appeal, I see no problem with grading the coin higher than a similar quality coin that is devoid of toning. Having said that, I would almost always consider coins given a grade bump for exceptional toning "C" coins for the assigned grade.

AuroraBorealis · April 19, 2011 1:41PM

I agree with llafoe to some degree...Technical and being consistent would definitely be some of the key points for a grade but not all toning is beneficial to a coins grade...At one time i owned a PCGS 1876 Proof 64 Cameo Trade Dollar... Technically it was a solid 65 if not better but the rev. was a Very cloudy toning...Not at all eye appealing more of a gray/gold that in my opinion did hinder the grade...My photo bucket is still out or i would post it...Ended up selling it and upgrading to a 65 UCam...

AB

CoinJunkie · April 19, 2011 2:33PM

<< 

<< 

<< The grade should be a CONSISTENT technical grade... let the market decide if the eye appeal is worth more or less than the technical grade with their checkbook, not a TPG grader. >>

BINGO!!!!!! You got it. The TPG's have no business changing grades based on toning. Its nonsense. Whether toning is attractive or not is completely subjective. Some people like this type, some dont.

>>

Everything else about grading is completely subjective too. >>

Grading is subjective, but I believe you're overstating it. For lower circulated grades especially, there are
often indicators such as the number of letters remaining in LIBERTY, etc., that are pretty cut and dried.

relicsncoins · April 19, 2011 2:43PM

The reason I asked this; I have a coin that is an MS67 and is mostly white but has skin. I asked if this coin has a shot at a 67+ or 68. An experienced collector of this series said he doubted it as most of the 67's and the one 68 has incredible toning. Which got me thinking. Why should that matter?

melvin289 · April 19, 2011 2:51PM

Since coins don't come from the mint toned then toning is an impairment if anything. If someone wishes to pay more for a coin with patina then so be it but it should not affect the grading of the coin.

Ron

leothelyon · April 19, 2011 4:05PM

But it always boils down to killing two birds with one stone. And I won't elaborate.

Leo

OKbustchaser · April 20, 2011 4:52AM

Should toning have an effect on grade? No, but as long as all of the TPGs rank coins by market price instead of grading them it will continue to do so--either postively or negatively--at least in the real world.

By the way, I am not saying this is a bad thing. Most submitters want their coins priced rather than graded.

Monstarcoins · April 20, 2011 5:50AM

I think the most of you folks unfortunately are sadly mistaken. Toning can add or subtract from the grade. Eye appeal plays a part in the grading process, therefore a coin with stellar toning will get a grade bump or a "+" because of outstanding eye appeal. If the coin has horrendous toning than it will get a grade subtracted because of the disgusting toning. The same can be said for white coins. A really white coin will always get a grade bump or "+". One thing most fail to recognize is luster is always king when it comes to mint state coins.I agree with the way coins are graded and I see no reason to change the way coins are graded.

Jon

MikeInFL · April 20, 2011 6:31AM

Toning factors into eye appeal. Eye appeal is a factor in grading. Therefore, toning should factor into grading.

IMO, of course.

leothelyon · April 20, 2011 8:04AM

While toning does add to the overall eye appeal of a coin whether it's good or bad, it does not cancel out the other 3 qualities that are just as important in how a coin grades. The following grid shows how well a coin grades in each of the four categories that are used to sum up the final grade. Too many times we see coins in the upper class of grading that lack 1 or 2 qualities. It's wrong to base a high grade on toning and luster alone. However, there are some beautiful, very collectable coins in all of the mint state grades with nice toning.
What would a coin grade with the listed qualities in this chart? MS64? MS65? MS66?

Leo

Edited; grammer

golfer72 · April 20, 2011 8:58AM

<< I think the most of you folks unfortunately are sadly mistaken. Toning can add or subtract from the grade. Eye appeal plays a part in the grading process, therefore a coin with stellar toning will get a grade bump or a "+" because of outstanding eye appeal. If the coin has horrendous toning than it will get a grade subtracted because of the disgusting toning. The same can be said for white coins. A really white coin will always get a grade bump or "+". One thing most fail to recognize is luster is always king when it comes to mint state coins.I agree with the way coins are graded and I see no reason to change the way coins are graded. Stellar toning in who's eyes? The grader right? Its too subjective. All aspects of a grade are subjective but toning is the most subjective and should not be included.
Jon >>

Monstarcoins · April 20, 2011 9:04AM

<< 

<< I think the most of you folks unfortunately are sadly mistaken. Toning can add or subtract from the grade. Eye appeal plays a part in the grading process, therefore a coin with stellar toning will get a grade bump or a "+" because of outstanding eye appeal. If the coin has horrendous toning than it will get a grade subtracted because of the disgusting toning. The same can be said for white coins. A really white coin will always get a grade bump or "+". One thing most fail to recognize is luster is always king when it comes to mint state coins.I agree with the way coins are graded and I see no reason to change the way coins are graded. Stellar toning in who's eyes? The grader right? Its too subjective. All aspects of a grade are subjective but toning is the most subjective and should not be included.
Jon >>

>>

If you actually took the time to read you would see that nobody said toning is included in grading. I said eye appeal is included in grading. Toning is included in eye appeal.

golfer72 · April 20, 2011 9:40AM

<< 

<< 

<< I think the most of you folks unfortunately are sadly mistaken. Toning can add or subtract from the grade. Eye appeal plays a part in the grading process, therefore a coin with stellar toning will get a grade bump or a "+" because of outstanding eye appeal. If the coin has horrendous toning than it will get a grade subtracted because of the disgusting toning. The same can be said for white coins. A really white coin will always get a grade bump or "+". One thing most fail to recognize is luster is always king when it comes to mint state coins.I agree with the way coins are graded and I see no reason to change the way coins are graded. Stellar toning in who's eyes? The grader right? Its too subjective. All aspects of a grade are subjective but toning is the most subjective and should not be included.
Jon >>

>>

If you actually took the time to read you would see that nobody said toning is included in grading. I said eye appeal is included in grading. Toning is included in eye appeal. >>

If toning is part of eye appeal and eye appeal is included in grading than obviously toning is included in grading. Also if you took the time to read this thread you would see many have said toning is part of grading. It should not be but it is.

Monstarcoins · April 20, 2011 9:48AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< I think the most of you folks unfortunately are sadly mistaken. Toning can add or subtract from the grade. Eye appeal plays a part in the grading process, therefore a coin with stellar toning will get a grade bump or a "+" because of outstanding eye appeal. If the coin has horrendous toning than it will get a grade subtracted because of the disgusting toning. The same can be said for white coins. A really white coin will always get a grade bump or "+". One thing most fail to recognize is luster is always king when it comes to mint state coins.I agree with the way coins are graded and I see no reason to change the way coins are graded. Stellar toning in who's eyes? The grader right? Its too subjective. All aspects of a grade are subjective but toning is the most subjective and should not be included.
Jon >>

>>

If you actually took the time to read you would see that nobody said toning is included in grading. I said eye appeal is included in grading. Toning is included in eye appeal. >>

If toning is part of eye appeal and eye appeal is included in grading than obviously toning is included in grading. Also if you took the time to read this thread you would see many have said toning is part of grading. It should not be but it is. >>

Im not concerning myself with what the "others" said because I dont send my coin to "others" to get graded and encapsulated. Im concerned with what our host say. And they clearly hold eye appeal and luster in there graces when grading. What I am gathering from you is that eye appeal does not matter at all. You would not mind owning a black coin as long as it dont have any wear, ticks, or tacks on it.

golfer72 · April 20, 2011 10:05AM

Eye appeal is the most important thing to me. Why buy coins if you dont like the way they look? All i am saying is PCGS should grade the coins technically and let the market decide how much they value them. Dont add a grade or two to a coin because it has the latest type of popular toning. Thats all.

leothelyon · April 20, 2011 10:24AM

However you guys want to look at it, it really doesn't matter until the two ends meet the most demanding coin where it's price truncates exponentially. Which bears heavily on the subconsciousness of the backer of the grade guarantee, BTW. Only then does it matter, the technical grade over a market grade and I like it that way. Less competition with those coins most folks have no idea how to grade.

Leo

Shamika · April 20, 2011 10:26AM

Are you referring to market grade or technical grade?

Monstarcoins · April 20, 2011 10:36AM

I dont know I guess I am just confused. I dont think I own a single toner than cost me book value or less. To me that means the coins are not market graded.

leothelyon · April 20, 2011 10:48AM

<< I dont know I guess I am just confused. I dont think I own a single toner than cost me book value or less. To me that means the coins are not market graded. >>

I collect coins that are mostly fully struck. That quality is the most important to me. While it bothers me that the TGS don't see it my way, they're not the ones I need to impress while I'm assembling my set. For Mercury dimes, there are high points that don't strike up very well. To most collectors of that series, they hardly pay any attention to that quality if all they care about is the condition, luster and toning. When a TGS grades accordingly, overlooking the strike and/or condition of a coin, basing a grade on luster and toning, that's market grading, customer satisfaction, more submissions because there are not a lot of coins out there that carry all 4 qualities.

Leo

Coppercolor · April 20, 2011 11:20AM

<< However you guys want to look at it, it really doesn't matter until the two ends meet the most demanding coin where it's price truncates exponentially. Which bears heavily on the subconsciousness of the backer of the grade guarantee, BTW. Only then does it matter, the technical grade over a market grade and I like it that way. Less competition with those coins most folks have no idea how to grade.

Leo

>>

I think this is right on, if I understand it.

In the lincoln series for example, I believe I've observed common date colorfully toned coins get bumped up at PCGS, while rarer date more expensive coins get bumped down or get no bump at all due to the potentially higher value.

And naturally colorful lincolns are not common.

Grading and toning poll.

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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