Bust Quarters Updated With a New Rarity Rating

hchcoin · March 18, 2011 12:38PM

I picked these two large size bust quarters up today from the Minneapolis show. Guess the die marriages if you are a quarter collector (If you can see them in enough detail). I was pretty excited about the 1820. They are both new die marriages for me. Opinions on grades would also be welcome. As a side note, the show was packed!

Raybo · March 18, 2011 12:49PM

Just as I thought!
My eyes are getting REALLY bad, YIKES!

nccoin · March 18, 2011 1:07PM

I couldn't believe how busy it was this afternoon. Saw lots of people bringing in silver to sell. Early Lincolns and I.H.'s in high grade were hard
to find, and way overpriced.

Moldnut · March 18, 2011 1:08PM

Nice finds! Your 1820 is the B1 R4 coin in the grade of a very soild VF25. Your 1819 is the B3 R1 VG10.

hchcoin · March 18, 2011 1:18PM

The 1820 was from a type collector who was sharing a table with a dealer. He said his wife told him he had to get rid of some of his coins. It is my first R4 in the quarter series. It was the first bust quarter I saw at the show. He said he was happy someone bought it that collects the series.

hchcoin · March 18, 2011 1:24PM

<< I couldn't believe how busy it was this afternoon. Saw lots of people bringing in silver to sell. Early Lincolns and I.H.'s in high grade were hard
to find, and way overpriced. >>

The show was a zoo! I also saw a lot of people bringing in coins and bullion to sell. I also saw a lot of people buying. I didn't even have time to talk to some of my local coin club dealers because they were so busy. I can't wait to talk with them at our next monthly meeting about the show.

Billet7 · March 18, 2011 1:43PM

I second what Moldnut said.

The 1820 is very nice, I am a huge fan. I have a VF of the same variety. I am a fan of his book, but don't believe what Steve Tompkin says about this variety, it is NOT an R-4, unless you are talking XF coins or higher. I see this variety WAY too often to be an R4. I'm thinking more like an R3 or an R2+. Clearly this is my opinion, and I am sure Steve will chime in, but that's what I think.

BTW I hope it is an R-4, cause I have one, I just don't think so.

Either way, it doesn't diminish the beauty of your coin, nice pickup! I hope you got a steal!

RogerRamjet · March 19, 2011 9:16AM

Very nice pickups!!

BaseballAbs · March 19, 2011 9:35AM

I too think they look like nice coins. I would have to agree with Billet7 on the rarity of the 1820 B-1. Browning lists this coin as an R-3 and I think he's pretty dead on. I have no idea why Steve has this listed as an R-4. Other than at the time he published the book that must have been what he felt it was.
As far as i can tell the 1819 B-3 is R-1 in low grades and is much more scarce in higher grades, but that's just my observation. A few collectors like myself have found it very difficult to find any 1819 in XF-AU.

Edit: JMO

hchcoin · March 28, 2011 8:40AM

<< I second what Moldnut said.

The 1820 is very nice, I am a huge fan. I have a VF of the same variety. I am a fan of his book, but don't believe what Steve Tompkin says about this variety, it is NOT an R-4, unless you are talking XF coins or higher. I see this variety WAY too often to be an R4. I'm thinking more like an R3 or an R2+. Clearly this is my opinion, and I am sure Steve will chime in, but that's what I think.

BTW I hope it is an R-4, cause I have one, I just don't think so.

Either way, it doesn't diminish the beauty of your coin, nice pickup! I hope you got a steal! >>

I just received the new bust quarter book today and to my surprise the 1820 B-1 is listed as an R-5- in the new book. Wow!

Billet7 · March 28, 2011 9:04AM

Good news for both of us. I still don't know that I'm convinced, but HEY...I don't make the rules!

QuarterCollector · March 28, 2011 9:11AM

"A few collectors like myself have found it very difficult to find any 1819 in XF-AU."

I agree. BTW, nice finds.

Tom

BaseballAbs · March 28, 2011 9:15AM

I just received the new bust quarter book today and to my surprise the 1820 B-1 is listed as an R-5- in the new book. Wow! >>

Wonder how they came up with that?

Moldnut · March 28, 2011 11:10AM

Like I said earlier, nice coins! R4 probably, R5.... Im not to sure on that one. I have the same feeling on the 1819 B1 that is listed as an R5. I've just come across too many 1819 B1s(albeit low grade) to feel good about it at an R5.

Enjoy them!

mozin · March 28, 2011 12:50PM

Your pictures are way way too large to fit on a regular computer screen, and they do not show much detail. Sorry.

Quarternut · March 28, 2011 1:55PM

From Billet7:

<< I second what Moldnut said.

The 1820 is very nice, I am a huge fan. I have a VF of the same variety. I am a fan of his book, but don't believe what Steve Tompkin says about this variety, it is NOT an R-4, unless you are talking XF coins or higher. I see this variety WAY too often to be an R4. I'm thinking more like an R3 or an R2+. Clearly this is my opinion, and I am sure Steve will chime in, but that's what I think.

BTW I hope it is an R-4, cause I have one, I just don't think so.

Either way, it doesn't diminish the beauty of your coin, nice pickup! I hope you got a steal! >>

In EF and above grades it is closer to an R-5+.

Keep in mind that R-4 encompasses from 81 - 200 examples known.

An R-4- would be 161 - 200 examples known.
An R-4+ would be from 81 - 120 examples known.

From about 2000 to June of 2010, I only show 37 auction appearances in all grades including problem coins. I have also tracked approximately 15-20 additional examples sold via earlier auctions that have not re-appeared, sold via E-bay, and at coin shows. I would estimate that there are perhaps another 50 or so examples that I have not been able to trace due to residing in both type sets and quarter die marriage collections (these are not included in the ones tracked from auction appearances).

This represents a total of about 100 coins. That falls into the R-4+ category. Being a bit conservative, I listed it at an R-4 in my book. I would expect it to become an R-4- over the course of the next few years, but I would doubt that it will reach much lower and no where near R-2 (501 - 1000 examples known).

Anyone else who has additional data that they can support is welcome to determine a better rarity factor. I would appreciate a copy of any info so it might be included in future updates of my book.

From hchcoin:

<< I just received the new bust quarter book today and to my surprise the 1820 B-1 is listed as an R-5- in the new book. Wow! >>

This is one example where I think they are a bit off in their estimate. When estimating rarity ratings (for R-1 through R-4, estimating is the only way you can even come close to an accurate number) you have to be more conservative for the less rare ratings. I believe that over time you will see all rarity ratings decline as more examples are tracked and more collectors collect the series.

I think you will find several examples where those authors disagree with my rarity ratings. However, only time will tell who is more accurate.

I haven’t ordered a copy of the new book yet so that I can compare what they have done with what I have in my book. After I have a chance to do that, I will post a thread on the die marriages that are in dispute.

QN

Moldnut · March 28, 2011 2:00PM

QN, What do you think about the R5 given to the 1819 B1?

Quarternut · March 28, 2011 2:08PM

<< Like I said earlier, nice coins! R4 probably, R5.... Im not to sure on that one. I have the same feeling on the 1819 B1 that is listed as an R5. I've just come across too many 1819 B1s(albeit low grade) to feel good about it at an R5.

Enjoy them! >>

The 1819 B-1 is a bit more common in lower grades and especially damaged examples.

In my most recent "Auction Appearances & Prices Realized for Early United States Quarters 1796 – 1838", I have down graded the 1819 B-1 to an R-5- (64 - 80 examples known). Although I only have 24 different examples sold in all grades over the last 10+ years at auction, I expect that it will eventually settle at an R-4+ over time.

However, it becomes a major rarity above EF and to date, and I know of only one uncirculated example (Eliasberg).

QN

1Bustcollector · March 29, 2011 4:16AM

Wow, R-4, R-3 and even R-2?

Seems we all have our way of projecting/estimating Rarity.

It kinda depends if you're talking about current or "years into the future" estimates.

In any event, I'll offer a free hardbound version of our new quarter book to the first person who can send me 100 different actual photos of the 1820 B-1 die marriage within 2 months starting today.

Let's see how close we come......

Moldnut · March 29, 2011 4:24AM

I'm sure we will all agree that its more than just finding 100 pictures of each variety. Some statistical analysis is involved too.

hchcoin · March 29, 2011 4:38AM

<< I'm sure we will all agree that its more than just finding 100 pictures of each variety. Some statistical analysis is involved too. >>

The statistics are in the new book using the census the authors provided.

Bust Quarters Updated With a New Rarity Rating

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