RETAIL APPRAISAL QUANDRY - What would you have done?

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 7:49AM

1) You get a call from a retail person who says that they have an actual $1K "bag" of circulated silver dollars. You confirm with the seller that there are all Morgan and Peace Dollars. He even displays a smidgen of knowledge saying that his father-in-law had "scrubbed" a few hundred of them.

2) You have to take your daughter to a tutoring session 20 minutes from your home. He says that it has to be tonight (an hour away from the tutoring) because he has to come with money in order to prevent his town from selling his property. You confirm with him your appraisal rate plus travel time (which is refunded upon purchase). He also understands that if you have to come back to buy the items, he will incur an additional travel expense charge which is non-refundable. You also confirm with the seller the "and up" prices that you are willing to pay for his material, AND that he wants to sell them tonight. You say this because you have to take your daughter out on a school night, and if you were doing an appraisal, you would rather it be another time. All of this is agreed upon.

3) You get there and look at the stuff. The guy is affable, and you come up with a price. He asks you to wait for about five minutes while he makes a phone call. On the phone, the guy is calling someone who had made him an offer previously, and divulging your buy price. He comes back in and says "I told him what you were paying (which was about $2.00 per coin profit for the dealer), and he offered me $250.00 more than you. That means I'll get an extra $75.00 after I pay you. Thank you for your time and have a nice evening.

Now let's play:

1) Does the fact that the dealer had his child with him make handling the situation any different?
2) What do you think happened?

Should be an interesting thread,

Greg

CoinRaritiesOnline · March 25, 2011 8:01AM

If he is willing to pay your appraisal fee (and it sounds like he is), he can do whatever he wishes. There isn't an obligation on his part to sell to you.

Does it make the appraiser sad? Perhaps. But note that there is an inherent conflict if the person who appraises a collection is also the buyer of the collection.

Bayard1908 · March 25, 2011 8:04AM

I don't want people using my offer as a free appraisal; however, in this instance you were paid an appraisal fee and were not mistreated.

You could have upped your offer by $75.01 and closed the deal btw.

mingot · March 25, 2011 8:06AM

<< You have upped your offer by $75.01 and closed the deal btw. >>

Don't think that would have worked, since there is no appraisal fee if there was a purchase.

Steve27 · March 25, 2011 8:08AM

1) Does the fact that the dealer had his child with him make handling the situation any different?

Yes, makes him want to expedite matters, not waste time, and not use vulgar language.

2) What do you think happened?

He takes the appraisal money and leaves.

DuPapa · March 25, 2011 8:24AM

I'd have thanked him for the appraisal fee and opportunity to buy... shook his hand and wished him well....

morgandollar1878 · March 25, 2011 8:31AM

<< 1) Does the fact that the dealer had his child with him make handling the situation any different?

Yes, makes him want to expedite matters, not waste time, and not use vulgar language.

2) What do you think happened?

He takes the appraisal money and leaves. >>

Exactly what I was thinking.

TomB · March 25, 2011 8:49AM

Two observations. He has no obligation to you after he pays the agreed upon fees and you charge a whole heck of a lot more to do this work than I do.

LindeDad · March 25, 2011 8:55AM

Up front sounds like a junk silver deal not a appraisal.
And how much gruff did the wife give you for keeping the daughter out that late.

AUandAG · March 25, 2011 8:59AM

I see no problem with it at all. Astute seller.

However, if I wanted the deal at my price plus the $250 I say "okay, let me get this straight, if I up my offer
an additional $250.01 then we'd have a deal?" and see what he'd say then. I bet you could get them and
then subtract your appraisal fee and be done.

bob

GrumpyEd · March 25, 2011 9:03AM

I think the dealer made $175 for a drive and giving his buy price. Sounds ok?

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 9:15AM

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S NOT ME!!! If it were me, I would have said so.

$50.00/hour for an appraisal with over two hours of driving time is not unreasonable when you are having a professional evaluate your holding. Have you ever tried to hire an accountant lately?? If you have to drive that far, and you do not end up with the stuff you should be compensated for your time.

Second, looking through 1,000 circulated dollars is not a junk deal. That is very shortsighted. Dollars have to be categorized into damaged, culls, and circs or better. You also have to check for dates as well. I will agree it's not the same as buying a set of high-grade early type, but it's like you are weighing a bunch of 90%.

There's another issue here which gets a lot of debate, but I'll wait to comment on that when I (hopefully) get more replies. All I can tell you is that what happened will surprise you.

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 9:23AM

<< If he is willing to pay your appraisal fee (and it sounds like he is), he can do whatever he wishes. There isn't an obligation on his part to sell to you.

Does it make the appraiser sad? Perhaps. But note that there is an inherent conflict if the person who appraises a collection is also the buyer of the collection. >>

.

Dave,

The appraiser was a full-time dealer who was under the auspices that the collection was going to be sold to him after considerable discussion. The other "appraiser" was also a dealer who had looked at it prior. FWIW, the guy also lied and said that he did not call anyone else (not that he is under an obligation to be ethical as a non-professional).

truthteller · March 25, 2011 9:26AM

I learned a long time ago, that the seller needs to bring the items to me to get the offer, whether it be at a shop or the local Burger joint. The only time I have gotten burned on a situation in the last 10 years like your scenario is when a friend recommended that I buy a deal. Five hours later and $100 in gasoline, the seller never got back to me. Eight months later, my friend(who is no longer a friend) said that the deal was still viable. I said, take it to the local shop and sell it.

TRUTH

291fifth · March 25, 2011 9:36AM

If it was a paid appraisal (my opinion) you should not even be making an offer.

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 9:45AM

<< If it was a paid appraisal (my opinion) you should not even be making an offer. >>

you

I am using the word "appraisal" in the wrong context, and I think that you are misunderstanding the situation (please read the original post carefully).

General policy when the buyer is travelling is that the seller pays the buyer (a professional) for their time and travel unless the item that's APPRAISED is purchased, to which the full appraisal fee is waived.

The guy SPECIFICALLY asked the seller if this was just an appraisal. I am sure if it were, he would have never gone. I do not know any decent father who would have gone that far on a school if they were not 99.9% sure they were walking away with it.

GrumpyEd · March 25, 2011 10:03AM

So you're saying "something else happened"?

Well maybe the dealer on the phone didn't come through to buy it that night so the seller called the other dealer back in desperation and said "come back and take them as you offered". Then that dealer either said OK but pay me again for the drive or bring them to me or even dropped his price or said forget it.

Baley · March 25, 2011 10:06AM

even then, he might reconsider his priorities, unless the daughter was having a good time during this excursion

coindeuce · March 25, 2011 11:18AM

The dealer was paid an appraisal fee. The only issue for him should be: Did I lose money on this venture? My take would be NO. Not if the dealer accepted the fee at the rate which he offered to make the trip for. One cannot lose money on something they never owned, eh?

In my world, and this is how I explain the terminology to potential customers; an appraisal is a written documentation of current fair market retail value that is typically only used for the execution of an estate (taxes), or for replacement value (insurance). It would appear that your dealer has a problem with semantics. The dealers involved were making competing purchase offers, and the seller conveniently leveraged one dealer's offer against another's. The dealer who got outbid was not properly prepared to negotiate effectively. Why he would not pose the question up front of: "Are there any current offers tendered?" is a mystery to me.

pontiacinf · March 25, 2011 11:24AM

whomever got paid, get over it.

and what Tom said, he was being nice about whomever (not you) got paid

pontiacinf · March 25, 2011 11:26AM

<< I learned a long time ago, that the seller needs to bring the items to me to get the offer, whether it be at a shop or the local Burger joint. The only time I have gotten burned on a situation in the last 10 years like your scenario is when a friend recommended that I buy a deal. Five hours later and $100 in gasoline, the seller never got back to me. Eight months later, my friend(who is no longer a friend) said that the deal was still viable. I said, take it to the local shop and sell it.

TRUTH >>

always good to see an old friend

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 12:14PM

So let's see: You're a full time PROFESSIONAL numismatist. You get a call to BUY and EVALUATE a collection that the person tells you that are going to sell to you after you tell him how much you are paying for every single kind of silver dollar on the face of the earth. You tell him that if there is any chance that he is not going to sell it tonight that you do not want to do this tonight because you cannot drop off your kid before coming. He tells you that your prices are the best he got, and he is going to sell the material TO YOU tonight when you come. You have to drive about 2.5 hours roundtrip to see this stuff. Your kid is probably not going to bed until 11:30 on a school night, but you're buying a $30K deal and it's worth it big time!! You agree on your appraisal rate, which is FULLY REFUNDABLE if the item is purchased. You get there, agree on a price, you are ready to cut a check, he goes to take a leak when he is really on the phone cutting your throat as he is shopping his stuff around like a whore. To top it off, this a'hole has the stupidity to divulge your offer. That's like playing poker with all of your cards facing up (topic for another discussion).

Now I think we all understand that it's the customer's stuff. He can take a dump on his stuff if he wants to. He can call 20 people while he says he is taking a leak. He can lie through his teeth. He's paying your appraisal fee, and business is business. That's just too damn bad. He's not subject to any ethical standards because he's not the professional.

Here's something else to consider: What makes you think he's not going to go take another leak and call someone else if you counteroffer him? If you enable someone like this to be in control, you need to consider another profession.

OK, here's what happened:

- The dealer simply told the guy to make the $175.00 check out to his daughter, thanked him for the opportunity and inviting the two of them into his home, and reiterated that it is not his policy to engage in bidding wars with other dealers on low-margin deals. He ended the discussion by saying that if you come to me and change your mind, I will stand by my offer with respect to the current market value.

To me, this was a class act. I think that any decent father would have wanted to put his hands around that guy's throat for being a lying piece of crap. That appointment could have been done the next day. Instead, this piece of garbage put out someone's kid, as well as his two other children and his wife who had to stay home with one who was sick.

coindeuce · March 25, 2011 12:19PM

As the case was, TALK IS CHEAP. If the deal was that important to potential buyer, all conditions of the request for his services should have been laid out in a business contract. It's called C.Y.A.

WinPitcher · March 25, 2011 12:21PM

What was stated in the opening post and what was just now stated are different.

IMO anyway.

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 12:29PM

Doesn't anyone see that the seller's actions infringed on the personal aspect because he put out the guy's kid? There is no debate about the business aspect.

dogwood · March 25, 2011 12:34PM

The guy wasn't forced to go look at coins, that was his choice, and whatever he had to do to avail himself to the "opportunity" was his choice as well.
"I got a kid, I can't go" was a choice he could have made.
Just saying.

TomB · March 25, 2011 12:37PM

<< Doesn't anyone see that the seller's actions infringed on the personal aspect because he put out the guy's kid? There is no debate about the business aspect. >>

The potential buyer's actions, also known as the spurned dealer in this thread, infringed upon the child. As far as I can tell, no one held a gun to the potential buyer's head and forced him to attempt to make the deal and to bring his child with him. If he was that concerned about his child then he shouldn't have gone on the call. Before you qualify your next post I will state that, yes, I am a full time dealer with two little girls.

ColonialCoinUnion · March 25, 2011 12:43PM

<< Doesn't anyone see that the seller's actions infringed on the personal aspect because he put out the guy's kid? >>

No, I don't see that.

coindeuce · March 25, 2011 12:52PM

I thought this forum was about collecting/buying/selling/trading coins, and not about domestic indiscretions.

To answer the question(from the thread title) which remains the apparent issue to you: I would have hired a competent caretaker for the daughter, knowing full well that my compensation for the requested numismatic service would easily cover that expense.

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 1:11PM

<< I thought this forum was about collecting/buying/selling/trading coins, and not about domestic indiscretions.

To answer the question(from the thread title) which remains the apparent issue to you: I would have hired a competent caretaker for the daughter, knowing full well that my compensation for the requested numismatic service would easily cover that expense. >>

A caretaker was not available on short notice. He received the call while he was on the way to his daughter's appointment.

If you can honestly tell me that you would not be pissed on a PERSONAL level about this, than I would like to know why. Send me a PM with it.

CaptHenway · March 25, 2011 1:13PM

Have seen it happen. Just take the appraisal fee and move on.
TD

mrpotatoheadd · March 25, 2011 1:28PM

1. - "He tells you that your prices are the best he got, and he is going to sell the material TO YOU tonight when you come."

2. - "You agree on your appraisal rate, which is FULLY REFUNDABLE if the item is purchased." >>

These two sentences together do not make sense regarding this deal. If he's going to sell to you tonight, there is no need to agree refund terms, is there?

coindeuce · March 25, 2011 1:33PM

<< 

<< I thought this forum was about collecting/buying/selling/trading coins, and not about domestic indiscretions.

To answer the question(from the thread title) which remains the apparent issue to you: I would have hired a competent caretaker for the daughter, knowing full well that my compensation for the requested numismatic service would easily cover that expense. >>

A caretaker was not available on short notice. He received the call while he was on the way to his daughter's appointment.

If you can honestly tell me that you would not be pissed on a PERSONAL level about this, than I would like to know why. Send me a PM with it. >>

If I placed the value of a business deal over the welfare of a child, regardless of the outcome of a business deal, I should only be pissed at myself.

Bochiman · March 25, 2011 1:38PM

What would I have done? I would have been happy with the money I did make, upset that I did it to myself as well as the seller doing it to me.
Maybe if the offer had been a little higher ($1k bag = 1000 dollars, right, so that's was a $2000 profit that you had mentioned), then the other dealer wouldn't have tried to match it (ie.....would a $1000 profit been enough or too little for too much work?).

Seriously, if you give someone your best offer, get paid for it, and they sell to someone else, then why be upset as you didn't want to offer more anyway, right?

Amigo · March 25, 2011 2:57PM

I'm not trying to steal the thread, but it does remind me of a call I rec'vd a couple mths ago. A down and out older man had maybe $5 in silver coins, said he had no car, and wanted me to drive the 180 miles round trip. I explained to him that it wasn't possible, since the gas cost would be well above my profit, not to mention time. He then said he had a gold double eagle (his words), I asked about the date, his eyes were too bad to read it. Asked him where/when he got it. Said he found it many years ago. By this time I already figured he didn't have a double eagle, but he insisted and wanted me out there the following day, said he'd sell it to me for $400 under spot, he needed money right away. I kept insisting on detail on the coin, he was very non specific with every answer, trying to be evasive, kept saying there was an eagle on it.. In the end, I got him to divulge enough detail where I could figure out is was a bronze colored mexican peso.

With every call and run I go on, I get better at spotting the time wasters. I'm surprised the Dealer you referred to couldn't read between the lines before making such a long trip. In my part of the country, sellers will run you ragged with no care in the world of your time and expense. Sometimes, I get understated calls like last month. Man calls me out to look at a few coins, was within 15" of me. I get there and end up buying 347 BU Morgans.

I think a 2k profit is more than reasonable for shelling out 30k. I wished the Dealers around my area would get a clue, 3.5% margin is ridiculous.

Edited Grammer, probably made it worse though

timcoin · March 25, 2011 3:21PM

I love this thread. I wouldn't have left money on the table, and I wouldn't have left that guys house without hearing from the guy, "no," then, "hell no," then, "get the heck out of my house!" The appraiser should have said something like, "That is unusual. Normally I'm the strong buyer. Let me make a couple of calls myself, see if I can't get you a little more. I drove all the way out here, and I understand you wanting to get the most money possible for you coins. I would be the same way if I were in your shoes. Sit tight........ O.k. good news! The market is stronger than I thought for some grades, so let me look one more time at everything real quick. Sometimes a grade difference here or there can make all the difference...... O.k. I think my first offer was fair, but I do have some orders to fill, so I'll pay your price. Is cash o.k.?"

Done and done.

DaveG · March 25, 2011 3:36PM

Greg,

I agree, the "spurned dealer", appears, from what you've written, to have acted in a highly professional manner.

Since I don't know the "spurned dealer's" family situation, I can't comment on his treatment of his child. (I used to have to go to work with my father sometimes when I was a kid. My wife and I have had to drag our daughter along to various activities. Life is seldom as tidy as we would wish it to be.)

If what happened to the "spurned dealer" distresses you so much, then I would recommend that you not let what happened to him happen to you.

LindeDad · March 25, 2011 3:49PM

Like I said hope the wife cried foul load and clear. His actions were not the actions of a caring parent.

Oh and cleaned circulted is still a junk silver deal even if it is a lot of dollars with a very thin margin.

Ahmanfan · March 25, 2011 3:57PM

<< Doesn't anyone see that the seller's actions infringed on the personal aspect because he put out the guy's kid? There is no debate about the business aspect. >>

The kid went on a car ride past her bedtime, and the dad didn't spend a small fortune on silver dollars. I think there are worse fates out there.

ajia · March 25, 2011 4:00PM

2) You have to take your daughter to a tutoring session 20 minutes from your home. He says that it has to be tonight (an hour away from the tutoring) because he has to come with money in order to prevent his town from selling his property. You confirm with him your appraisal rate plus travel time (which is refunded upon purchase). He also understands that if you have to come back to buy the items, he will incur an additional travel expense charge which is non-refundable. You also confirm with the seller the "and up" prices that you are willing to pay for his material, AND that he wants to sell them tonight. You say this because you have to take your daughter out on a school night, and if you were doing an appraisal, you would rather it be another time. All of this is agreed upon.

I don't read anything about a 'done deal'.
Maybe I'm not reading this right, was this an appraisal (as stated) or an offer to buy (as is what is implied by the OP)?
Getting paid for making an offer is a pretty good gig if you can get it.

Oh, to answer the question, I would have taken the money and thanked the seller.
My daughter......she costs me more than that weekly!

This moneys MINE!

16DMERC · March 25, 2011 10:59PM

<< I love this thread. I wouldn't have left money on the table, and I wouldn't have left that guys house without hearing from the guy, "no," then, "hell no," then, "get the heck out of my house!" The appraiser should have said something like, "That is unusual. Normally I'm the strong buyer. Let me make a couple of calls myself, see if I can't get you a little more. I drove all the way out here, and I understand you wanting to get the most money possible for you coins. I would be the same way if I were in your shoes. Sit tight........ O.k. good news! The market is stronger than I thought for some grades, so let me look one more time at everything real quick. Sometimes a grade difference here or there can make all the difference...... O.k. I think my first offer was fair, but I do have some orders to fill, so I'll pay your price. Is cash o.k.?"

Done and done. >>

Well said....

First off, the dealer should have known the possibility of not buying the deal. 80% of deals are not gonna go your way. If he cared so much about his daughters bed time, he should of considered that before he agreed.

Second....ESPECIALLY, on a 1000 morgans that more than likely 90%+ will be crap, and there is a well presented buy price on them already. If they were all BU....understood....but when you can say, "I'll give you 27-28 per dollar, and if there are any better dates or grades, i'll pay you accordingly when i get a chance to go through it, and i'll bring cash tonight." (remember the seller is the one beggin for it right now, why bust your butt.)

Third...Why in the hell would you make a 2.5 hour drive and sacrifice your daughter and the wrath of your wife, unless the deal was done?! And if the deal is done...your not even talking about an appraisal fee!

Finally....the dealer should have known better, period. Because he knew better, he (a.) should have never gone, (b.) shouldn't of sacrificed his daughter for a measly $175 BEFORE gas, and (c.) is professional enough to not blame the seller for his irresponsibility and bad judgement.

Bottom line...the buyer is to blame here, for his CHOICE, his JUDGEMENT, and his IRRESPONSIBILITY. Correct the seller might of been a jack A, but he is not expected to be the professional one in the bunch...the buyer is.

abitofthisabitofthat · March 25, 2011 11:14PM

.

Ahrensdad · March 25, 2011 11:23PM

I have bought a lot of deals in someones home. I would NEVER consider taking my child on an appointment to purchase coins. While I try to be careful to screen callers and have never had an issue, you never really know what you're walking into.

halfcentman · March 25, 2011 11:27PM

First of all, I want to thank all of you who took the time to respond to this thread. I gave it a rest for the night, read EVERY word of every thread - including my own.

Unfortunately, I did not convey the overall scenario with total accuracy or consistency. Because of that, I think that some of the viewpoints were not indicative of what happened. That's my fault.

With that said, I did come out from all of this with some nuggets of knowledge and a different view of it. Since the thread has gone on long enough, we'll just leave it at that (if you REALLY want to know, PM me).

Once again, THANK YOU.

Greg

RETAIL APPRAISAL QUANDRY - What would you have done?

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