Poll: is it unethical or numismatically repugnant to make a modern love token from a 150+ year old c
lordmarcovan
Posts: 43,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hypothetically speaking, let's say I've got a Chinese counterfeit trade dollar and I want a "potty dollar" made out of it.
Haha. Sorry, but that's not the hypothetical here. That would be way too easy.
Let's say I've got an early Seated dime.
Let's say I collect Seated dime love tokens by date (actually, that part isn't hypothetical).
Let's say I decide to hire a modern hobo nickel artist to carve my own custom love token on that Seated dime.
If the coin is an attractive, original, undamaged piece, I'll answer my own question- that would indeed be numismatically repugnant to mess up a nice old coin that way. Who knows if there's an ethical question involved- it's my coin and I can do as I please with it, right? Unless I try to pass it off as a period 19th century engraving. That of course would be unethical.
But let's say it's already got some "issues", and is already a "problem" coin somehow. Would it still be considered a numismatic crime to have somebody do a modern carving on it? Or would anybody even care that much?
Let's see which way the poll goes. Then I might throw in a twist later.
Haha. Sorry, but that's not the hypothetical here. That would be way too easy.
Let's say I've got an early Seated dime.
Let's say I collect Seated dime love tokens by date (actually, that part isn't hypothetical).
Let's say I decide to hire a modern hobo nickel artist to carve my own custom love token on that Seated dime.
If the coin is an attractive, original, undamaged piece, I'll answer my own question- that would indeed be numismatically repugnant to mess up a nice old coin that way. Who knows if there's an ethical question involved- it's my coin and I can do as I please with it, right? Unless I try to pass it off as a period 19th century engraving. That of course would be unethical.
But let's say it's already got some "issues", and is already a "problem" coin somehow. Would it still be considered a numismatic crime to have somebody do a modern carving on it? Or would anybody even care that much?
Let's see which way the poll goes. Then I might throw in a twist later.
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Comments
<< <i>Just as most coin jewelry is repugnant >>
That's a matter of opinion. As a love token collector, I don't find it repugnant at all. Granted, there's such a thing as bad art, but let's say this hobo nickel guy is good- somebody like BILLZACH or one of the other masters of the craft.
I would agree that tooling or messing with a pristine, unmessed-with old coin is repugnant. I'll give you that. Nobody's gonna go there, for obvious reasons.
But again, what if the coin is already damaged? Wouldn't it be better to have a piece of cool folk art than to have just another unsightly, damaged old coin? And the major design elements of the coin would remain recognizeable. Unlike period love tokens, this one wouldn't involve planing off a whole side of the coin, for example, or removing dates and/or mintmarks.
When encountering a damaged artifact (yes, even a modern coin like a Seated dime) the first duty is to do no (further) harm to it.
That's why this is all to remain hypothetical, at least for the time being.
I won't say there haven't been some nefarious thoughts going through my brain, however.
Edit- aha- the poll has shifted in the direction I thought it might. Your side had the lead until just now.
I'm making people think. This is fun.
<< <i>You state your case well, Q54. >>
I gotta admit...I agree.
questor54 makes a good point.
<< <i>You state your case well, Q54.
That's why this is all to remain hypothetical, at least for the time being.
I won't say there haven't been some nefarious thoughts going through my brain, however.
Edit- aha- the poll has shifted in the direction I thought it might. Your side had the lead until just now.
I'm making people think. This is fun. >>
This is fun - and I respect a good debate!
I know you collect ancient coins, Lord M, as do I. The difference between the Seated dime and an Augustan denarius is only a couple thousand years. I assume neither one of us would consider engraving the denarius.
But, to be fair, a 'coin doctor' would have no hesitation in 'tooling' the denarius.
Maybe I should let the poll run a little longer to get an idea of the trend in opinion, before I drop the bombshell.
I have some work to do but I look forward to seeing how this come out.
I'm sinner enough to actually be contemplating this potentially nefarious deed.
But I'm saintly enough to consider the numismatic, historical, and/or cultural ramifications first, instead of just going and doing it as I please.
I'll quote a few lines from a favorite Jethro Tull song of mine, since I'm a gigantic Tullhead, after all.
Here's the everlasting rub-
Neither am I good nor bad
I'd give up my halo for a horn
And the horn for a hat I once had.
As of this reply, the "nays" have stayed constant at three votes, and the "yeas" (or at least the "why nots") have soared to 11 votes. This is trending the way I thought it might, despite the contrarian start.
Soon it will be time for the twist. Wait for it...
I worked graveyard shift last night and I've been awake nearly 24 hours now. Gonna crash pretty soon.
I'd say the direction of the poll results are pretty clearly defined, now.
Though there aren't too many replies here, there are plenty of votes in the poll (thanks, lurkers!), and we've got a clear trend in favor of my engraving this hypothetical, damaged Seated dime into a modern love token, it would seem. (23 for and 8 against, as of the last edit).
Since I need to go off to bed, and my own suspense would keep me awake over this (I've got more invested in this than y'all do, after all), it is time for...
THE TWIST in this little tale.
(Edit- whoops. Botched the link. Fixed it now.)
Don't click the link until you've read the issue and voted here, first.
The link leads to another poll, on the Testing Forum. Replies are limited there, but the poll should work just like this one.
Once you've voted in the second poll, feel free to come back here for discussion, but let's give it a while for everybody to vote in this poll before we let the cat out of the bag over here and ruin the suspense (if I've created any suspense).
<< <i>most of the love tokens i see on ebay were obviously made very recently, as there is little to no wear on the reverse, but G-F details on the obverse. genuine love tokens are worn much more uniformly. either way, there are a few dates that will likely cost many dollars ...... IF any even exist. the 1866 comes to mind, you may find an S mint but a genuine P mint will be very tough >>
Well, on all of the love tokens I own, the reverse is planed off for the engraving, and the date side intact, so mintmarks are irrelevant to my collecting- it's strictly a year set.
<< <i>You are a little twisted, Lord Marcovan. I like it. >>
Why, thankee, Sir. I'll take that as a compliment.
<< <i>
<< <i>You state your case well, Q54.
That's why this is all to remain hypothetical, at least for the time being.
I won't say there haven't been some nefarious thoughts going through my brain, however.
Edit- aha- the poll has shifted in the direction I thought it might. Your side had the lead until just now.
I'm making people think. This is fun. >>
This is fun - and I respect a good debate!
I know you collect ancient coins, Lord M, as do I. The difference between the Seated dime and an Augustan denarius is only a couple thousand years. I assume neither one of us would consider engraving the denarius.
But, to be fair, a 'coin doctor' would have no hesitation in 'tooling' the denarius. >>
Technical languaging question: Isn't repugnant really code for heinous? Tell it like it is!
It is much tougher to work with older planchets. You had to develop or refine techniques every time someone debased the currency.
Responding to the initial question:
My answer is an unqualified yes if Love is there.
Steve
It's when you go to sell it, it's how it's represented, that poses the most interesting moral and ethical questions
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>OK.....Though there aren't too many replies here, >>
One hour! Aren't we the imapatient one this A.M?
(Although you're prolly crashed by now)
First of all, I find it distasteful to damage historical items of any sort but I agree with OntheHunt's observation re: the how coins seem to take on the nature of a relic to some when they really are units of trade, then and now..
I voted "Why not" in the first poll and "Yes. Do it" in the second.
Furthermore; I once won a denarius of Vespasian on ebay. VG.
The piece arrived and it was what I expected. It was toned in the pleasing way a lightly toned original barber dime would look except it had a rub in the high spots of the device obv and rev.
Disappointed, but not disappointed enough to start a return process, I threw it in my pocket alongside my other pocket piece (a big 1 oz slug of silver - an ASE).
It's been there over two years and I'm sure many would think me a
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I love old worn coins. Takes me back to when I was a kid & would go through the change I received on my paper route. Each coin has a story to tell, and it's all there on its surface. How many pockets had it seen before coming to mine? How many hands? Is it possible for people to leave an energy residue on a coin? I don't know. As far as this particular coin is concerned, just because someone else has already defaced it doesn't give you the right to do the same. If you want to carve up one of these, why not get one of those replicas for a buck offered by that Chinese guy on ebay.
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>As a collector of love tokens by date, putting a modern carving on a seated dime seems to be a compromise to the exonumismatic integrity of your collection. A proper love token collection by date must have a plausibly period carving on it, typically the initials of a loved one (or one's self, I suppose), as a tribute or gift to that person. In my opinion, you'd still be missing the date of the coin you would plan on defacing from your love token set, and you'd probably always think of it with an asterisk next to it, anyway. >>
And there is a VERY good point.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Look at all of the modern hobo nickels. Some of them will be sold for old ones to too many collectors that will quit when they find out they have been swindled.
But I certainly thought about it for a little while.
I don't cheat with my "holey" collection and drill holes in the coins- I collect the ones that got holed 100+ years ago. But for some coins like the holey Bust dollar I still lack, the idea of drilling a hole in a replica has dawned on me. I will confess that I have drilled plugs out of holey coins a time or two, and in the case of one large cent, I "finished" a hole that somebody had started a century and a half earlier, which didn't quite go all the way through.
<< <i>geez you have a lot of free time >>
Not necessarily.
I just spend most of what I do have here.
That's why you'll see me post incessantly for a week or two and then vanish for anywhere from three days to five months.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i> you'd probably always think of it with an asterisk next to it, anyway. >>
I agree.
61*
Like the former baseball home run record
Or maybe more appropriately 1861*
when I was young and carving trees, yeah maybe
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Is melting an old coin any less repugnant than mutilating it? It shouldn't be but feels so.
The problem, lordm, with turning that coin into a love token and overwriting the existing damage is that, down the road, collectors will shake their heads in pity and wonder what kind of fool would do that. You want that on your soul?
Lance.