Problem coins and the "forgiveness" of grading services

coinaesthetics · March 13, 2011 5:46AM

I've shopped around unsuccessfully for some time in two 1790s categories: the 1793 left-facing half cent and 1790s gold (mainly eagles and half eagles). I've been astonished at how many coins with serious problems are respectfully slabbed -- even by the big dog, which can body bag a common coin because they don't like the color or think something dark just might be environmental. As a non-expert, I'm genuinely curious here. Is there some policy, formal or informal, by which the grading services "forgive" problem coins in the very rare categories (such as one-year types)? How can a 1795-99 gold coin with obvious ownership graffiti in the obverse field or a fluorescent tone that might have been produced by Borax get slabbed with a nice, expensive grade? Some personal context: I didn't learn until a few years ago that dipping had been OKed (if not too obvious) from the first days of the grading services. An expert coolly explained to me that so many valuable 1800s coins had been dipped that the services would have faced a numismatic insurrection if they'd refused to slab dipped coins. Does something similar happen with the toughest categories? Do the grading services bend to slab coins in these categories that they would never allow in, say, some easy Washington quarter? Also curious to know which categories you'd say have the greatest proportion of these slabbed problem coins, and if you agree with me on my 1790s categories. Thanks!

coinguy1 · March 13, 2011 6:02AM

Whether we like it or agree with it or not, it is my belief that older and/or more valuable coins are typically more easily "forgiven" than others. In other words, I agree with your observations.

llafoe · March 13, 2011 6:05AM

Slabbing didn't begin until the 1980s... so collectors have had a 100 years to "doctor" coins from the 1880s and 200 years to "doctor" coins from the 1780s. A lot of coins from the 1830s to date haven't been overly doctored... not so from the 1820s and earlier. I think the TPGs are realistic in knowing that very few if any coins from that period would slab if they weren't a little forgiving.

BaseballAbs · March 13, 2011 6:15AM

I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link

questor54 · March 13, 2011 6:18AM

Market acceptability?

I believe OP's observations are accurate.

bidask · March 13, 2011 6:27AM

You ask some great questions and I think the answer ultimately lies in what someone( hopefully informed or advised) is willing to pay for such coins.

llafoe · March 13, 2011 6:28AM

<< I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link >>

I hope you own or work for Southgate Coins?

They have some nice coins... I just looked at 400 on their website. That 1897 PR67DCAM Barber Half is a killer!

jesbroken · March 13, 2011 6:38AM

Do you think the tpgs should go ahead and slab cleaned/colored coins with grades and label them as such? As those responsible for these actions, whether they be accidental(unknowingly) or intentional, the amount of raw genuine coins will continue to decline due to their actions and the tpgs may find themselves without a source of income, or at least a lack of product. I do not see a reason for the tpgs not grading a coin merely due to color, scratches, slight damage, or light cleaning(completely agreeing that such coins should be labeled as such). Especially, as they will overlook one of these slight aberrations for pre 1800 coins but not after. How is this delineation brought about. Its like saying "Our integrity as a grading company is above reproach, except sometimes." JMO.
Jim

llafoe · March 13, 2011 6:40AM

<< Do you think the tpgs should go ahead and slab cleaned/colored coins with grades and label them as such? As those responsible for these actions, whether they be accidental(unknowingly) or intentional, the amount of raw genuine coins will continue to decline due to their actions and the tpgs may find themselves without a source of income, or at least a lack of product. I do not see a reason for the tpgs not grading a coin merely due to color, scratches, slight damage, or light cleaning(completely agreeing that such coins should be labeled as such). Especially, as they will overlook one of these slight aberrations for pre 1800 coins but not after. How is this delineation brought about. Its like saying "Our integrity as a grading company is above reproach, except sometimes." JMO.
Jim >>

If a coin is submitted to a TPG, they get slabbed... some with grades, some as Genuine/Details. I don't think there's a risk of them losing their source of income.

BaseballAbs · March 13, 2011 6:49AM

<< 

<< I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link >>

I hope you own or work for Southgate Coins?

They have some nice coins... I just looked at 400 on their website. That 1897 PR67DCAM Barber Half is a killer!

>>

No I don't own or work for Southgate coins, why would you ask that? No offence to them, I was just supprised (shocked) to see PCGS grade that coin in a problem free holder.

DoubleEagle59 · March 13, 2011 6:58AM

<< I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link >>

I'm shocked!!

Steve27 · March 13, 2011 7:00AM

I agree with the OPs observations, and my hope is the TPGs will level the playing field by slabbing all coins with net grades where required.

Teva · March 13, 2011 8:15AM

I half agree some early low grade coins are forgiven
some small problems. But generally I do not see that courtesy
being extended past the G grade class coins.IMHO
Lets also consider that there is always the possibility of mistakes
and that doctored coins often sour after encasement.
Do you really think that with there guarantee that they risk
having to buy these coins??
Its also a new day and policy's of even our recent past may not apply today??

DennisH · March 13, 2011 8:22AM

Right, wrong or otherwise, my experience with TPG grading services has been:

The rarer a coin is, the more latitude it gets.
The older a coin is, the more latitude it gets.
The lower the grade is, the more latitude it gets.

The amount of latitude in all three cases, however, is not necessarily predictable, consistent, or repeatable.

DIMEMAN · March 13, 2011 8:29AM

I agree with your assesment, but feel 1790's and early 1800's coins should get some breaks. Actually I would like to see market grading with very few Geniune's given.

I looked at Southgates site..............what's up with the 77-CC dime AU53 at $315. That's a 2 digit coin!?!?

BAJJERFAN · March 13, 2011 8:33AM

If you were a TPG why would you cut any slack to or risk your guarantee with a widget when there are tens of thousands of problem-free examples already available?

ColonelJessup · March 13, 2011 9:08AM

<< Whether we like it or agree with it or not, it is my belief that older and/or more valuable coins are typically more easily "forgiven" than others. In other words, I agree with your observations. >>

What he said.

Check out the 1796 15 star 50c AU58 PCGS in Sacramento Heritage lot 4410. Rather distractingly "spectacular" planchet flaws at 6;00 on the reverse. The rest of the coin is as wholesome and problem-free as you can find. Less likely it would grade thus if the problems are on the front, but to deny an actual grade on this coin would be a true injustice.

CBH and it's a no-grade every day.

Anyone buying 1796 50c's sight-unseen this week?

Frankcoins · March 13, 2011 10:00AM

A copper large cent cleaned every two decades or so in the 1800s might only exist BECAUSE of the cleaning. Spots can be
cleaned off when they are minor, but if nothing is done, the coin will be irreparably harmed and eventually become a lump of
corrosion

ecichlid · March 13, 2011 10:12AM

<< A copper large cent cleaned every two decades or so in the 1800s might only exist BECAUSE of the cleaning. Spots can be
cleaned off when they are minor, but if nothing is done, the coin will be irreparably harmed and eventually become a lump of
corrosion >>

Am interesting statement. What makes you believe this and exactly what type of corrosion are you referring to?

golfer72 · March 13, 2011 10:38AM

<< I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link >>

Why shouldnt this coin grade? What am I missing?

BlindedByEgo · March 13, 2011 11:13AM

<< 

<< I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link >>

Why shouldnt this coin grade? What am I missing?

>>

i have had relatively common silver coins returned in gennie holders with MUCH less obvious scratches than that coin.

stealer · March 13, 2011 11:16AM

<< 

<< I have seen many rare lowgrade coins with a few problems certify which because of the rarity along with the low grade i can understand.
Don't ask me why stuff like this 1819 PCGS XF with it's massive hit on the reverse certified?
1819 Link >>

Why shouldnt this coin grade? What am I missing?

>>

Magnify the picture and look at the shield. At least, I think that's what they're complaining about.

BaseballAbs · March 13, 2011 11:22AM

That's right, and you don't need a lens to see that crater scratching across the coin. Well maybe you do, I don't know, but my point is it's huge and I would have a hard time with a G graded coin looking like that in a PCGS holder. XF

lordmarcovan · March 13, 2011 11:28AM

"Grading on the curve" happens- you betcha. Whether subconscious or deliberate, I couldn't say, but it was made manifest to me after I saw the King Farouk 1933 double eagle get... umm... what was that, again? Something like MS65? With a big huge scuff on the knee? Suffice it to say, a common date Saint would never have 65-ed like that.

Of course grading is almost irrelevant on such a coin. We use grading to distinguish one coin from another, and when there's only one or two pieces of a particular coin, who cares? It's like the 1894-S dime. Which would you rather have: one of the proofs, or the impaired "Ice Cream" coin that got circulated? Me, I'd prefer the latter. It's got more of a story to tell.

lunytune2 · March 14, 2011 8:51AM

I have a problem with old coins getting genuine for being cleaned . I thought long ago that was an accepted practice . So when they were cleaned that was not taboo.

seateddime · March 14, 2011 11:20AM

<< 

<< Whether we like it or agree with it or not, it is my belief that older and/or more valuable coins are typically more easily "forgiven" than others. In other words, I agree with your observations. >>

What he said.

Check out the 1796 15 star 50c AU58 PCGS in Sacramento Heritage lot 4410. Rather distractingly "spectacular" planchet flaws at 6;00 on the reverse. The rest of the coin is as wholesome and problem-free as you can find. Less likely it would grade thus if the problems are on the front, but to deny an actual grade on this coin would be a true injustice.

CBH and it's a no-grade every day.

Anyone buying 1796 50c's sight-unseen this week? >>

I found the grade to be interesting, yes it is very rare but no grade reduction for a coin that maybe should not have been graded. If AU58 details coins that are scuffy grade 50 or 53 this should grade no better but still be graded IMHO. The coin should lose a few points for a major flaw but still be graded.

Problem coins and the "forgiveness" of grading services

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Problem coins and the &quot;forgiveness&quot; of grading services

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Problem coins and the "forgiveness" of grading services