Has PCGS made any decision on the finish on 2011 Mint Set coins?

GRANDAM · February 18, 2011 3:31AM

Is PCGS going to label them as just ordinary business strike coins or will they get some kind of a new label?

I know they are not satin finish but are they going to consider them as regular circulation strike coins?

Thanks, GrandAm

clackamas · February 18, 2011 3:52AM

Why would the not?

GRANDAM · February 18, 2011 3:55AM

I read a description somewhere, don't remember where describing the finish process and it did not sound like just a ordinary business strike coin to be. Can't remember if it was in Coin World or on The Mint Web Site?

Manorcourtman · February 18, 2011 5:05AM

They are nothing more than banged up Business strikes. No special process for these other than total lack of quality on their part!! I've seen 50 sets and can tell you this firsthand!

MsMorrisine · February 18, 2011 5:13AM

<< They are nothing more than banged up Business strikes. No special process for these other than total lack of quality on their part!! I've seen 50 sets and can tell you this firsthand! >>

I'm sure you're experience is true, but go to the mint's web site and read the program info for the mint set.
United States Mint uncirculated coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature a brilliant finish.

Well Struck Garbage?

You'd think if they went to the trouble of using special presses, they'd handle them a bit better post minting.

19Lyds · February 18, 2011 5:27AM

<< They are nothing more than banged up Business strikes. No special process for these other than total lack of quality on their part!! I've seen 50 sets and can tell you this firsthand! >>

Shhhh!

Don't let vann hear you or you'll get an earful! Don't you know this new process is suppose to move the standard for circulated coins to MS68??

Personally, I'm hoping PCGS recognizes the US Mints definition for what it really is, namely, just going back to a circulated finish with some fancy "buy me enticing" words wrapped around it.

"United States Mint uncirculated coins are struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins, producing a sharp, intricately detailed image, and feature a brilliant finish."

Press Release

Manorcourtman · February 18, 2011 5:29AM

<< 

<< They are nothing more than banged up Business strikes. No special process for these other than total lack of quality on their part!! I've seen 50 sets and can tell you this firsthand! >>

Shhhh!

Don't let vann hear you or you'll get an earful! Don't you know this new process is suppose to move the standard for circulated coins to MS68??

Personally, I'm hoping PCGS recognizes the US Mints definition for what it really is, namely, just going back to a circulated finish with some fancy "buy me enticing" words wrapped around it. >>

Well said.....words and nothing more from the US Mint.

19Lyds · February 18, 2011 5:45AM

From this thread, our own Cladking, whom I have the highest respect for, when referring to Uncirculkated Sets, states:

"The mint has always been very secretive about these operations, techniques, and processes
and one is mostly reduced to treating it as a black box problem. I believe CaptHenway is one
of only a very few people to have seen any part of this operation and pictures are very tough.
There are a few pictures on the mint's virtual tour at USMint.Gov.

These are struck on the old vertical presses at much lower speeds than those made for circu-
lation. They are also struck by new dies, as has been noted, under increased tonnage. Where
a regular quarter would be struck under about 60 tons and a proof (twice) at 65 tones, these
are struck at 75 tons. Struck coins are washed and dried. Other nicities Have been employed
over the years to make these coins generally superior to the other uncs .............."

To me, it looks like "back to business s it once had been" and nothing more.

And again, I can't seem to say it enough, it doesn't really matter how high a tonnage or what quality of die or even planchet is used, if the coins are improperly handled prior to and DURING packaging, its all for nought. They'll end up with mostly junky coins.

Look no further than the 1971-S Silver Business Strike IKEs. Most of them grade MS65 or less because of the treatment they received prior to packaging. Those processes were improved for 1972-1976 which resulted in much higher grade and better looking coins.

leothelyon · February 18, 2011 6:27AM

Personally, I'm hoping PCGS recognizes the US Mints definition for what it really is, namely, just going back to a circulated finish with some fancy "buy me enticing" words wrapped around it.

Can we blame Andrew, Ulysses and Franklin if they screw up again?

Leo

Manorcourtman · February 18, 2011 6:32AM

Some of them have semi-prooflike appearences and look like they were of better quality when they were minted. Most have a regular business strike look. It is a shame they aren't handled better. I was going to post some pics but haven't had time. You can put sunglasses on a pig...................

vann · February 18, 2011 7:08AM

PCGS & NGC are labeling them as business strikes as there is not enough difference in the finish from the coins in rolls for a SMS or other special designation. Regarding the quality of the coins in the mint sets. In terms of graded populations the satin sets have been yielding 67-69 for years so I don't know why the mint would go out of there way to handle the new sets any different than previous mint sets. Since the coins from the sets are currently being graded, you will have an objective opinion from a 3rd party soon. If I'm right, you will start seeing high grade 2011 business strikes showing up on eBay very soon!

Manorcourtman · February 18, 2011 7:19AM

<< PCGS & NGC are labeling them as business strikes as there is not enough difference in the finish from the coins in rolls for a SMS or other special designation. Regarding the quality of the coins in the mint sets. In terms of graded populations the satin sets have been yielding 67-69 for years so I don't know why the mint would go out of there way to handle the new sets any different than previous mint sets. Since the coins from the sets are currently being graded, you will have an objective opinion from a 3rd party soon. If I'm right, you will start seeing high grade 2011 business strikes showing up on eBay very soon!

>>

True dat. There will be some high grade examples based on the luck of the draw. Some of the coins, very few, have escaped the wrath of the poor handling process. I did find some high grade example but the vast majority will be choice bu at best. I submitted 15 coins total from 50 sets. Not a very good haul of high quality examples.

vann · February 18, 2011 7:46AM

A graded population of 10 or more in MS68 or better for the new mint set coins would be a huge increase in relation to the previous populations for business strike coins in those grades. A reality the market would have to adjust to and it would create condition rarities for the top grades of the previous business strike coins.

GRANDAM · February 18, 2011 9:15AM

I was hoping someone from PCGS would give us an official statement,,,,,,,,,,

vann · February 18, 2011 9:22AM

<< I was hoping someone from PCGS would give us an official statement,,,,,,,,,, >>

I agree. A statement on the classification of the new mint set coins would be beneficial to help determine how this will affect modern business strike sets going forward.

GRANDAM · February 19, 2011 8:43AM

How about it Don? What is PCGS official position on 2011 Mint Set coins?

Thanks, GrandAm

smokincoin · February 19, 2011 9:33AM

<< Is PCGS going to label them as just ordinary business strike coins or will they get some kind of a new label?

I know they are not satin finish but are they going to consider them as regular circulation strike coins?

Thanks, GrandAm

>>

Just my opinion, but I bet they will label them as ordinary business strike coins. If an alloy change ('09 copper Lincolns for example) doesn't deserve recognition, I don't see why a coin "struck on special presses using greater force than circulating coins" would.

RWB · February 19, 2011 9:37AM

They are nothing but ordinary circulation strikes that have been removed from the post-striking processes before they acquire too many marks and scratches. Slight surface variation is normal.

vann · February 19, 2011 10:18AM

<< They are nothing but ordinary circulation strikes that have been removed from the post-striking processes before they acquire too many marks and scratches. Slight surface variation is normal. >>

Not exactly correct. For one, the 2011 mint set includes all the circulation coins that will be produced during the year, even the ones that come out much later in the year and they haven't even begun to strike. They are also produced on special presses (using greater force) instead of the presses on the mint's main production floor. My understanding from when I spoke with NGC regarding how they will be labeled is that there is just not enough difference in the finish from business strikes from rolls to use a SMS or other special label and they will be labeled as regular business strikes just like the coins from rolls. Which also makes the whole 'First Day of Issue' designation even more meaningless since technically all of the business strikes for the year will be released at the same time in the mint set.

RWB · February 19, 2011 10:56AM

They are also produced on special presses (using greater force) instead of the presses on the mint's main production floor.

This sentence is misleading you. The same presses are used, however they are set up as dual instead of quad (which is normal). Striking pressure might be set a little higher, but I really doubt it has much difference in the depth of strike.

Steve · February 19, 2011 11:13AM

<< How about it Don? What is PCGS official position on 2011 Mint Set coins?

Thanks, GrandAm

>>

And Don, while you are at it, What is PCGS official position on how 2011 Lincoln cents will be placed in PCGS holders? All Lincoln cents, proof and business strikes minted from 1909 thru 2008 had the Lincoln obverse shown on the front of the holder along with the label and grade. In 2009 we had four different reverses and I can understand moving the reverse to the front of the holder that year. In 2010 we have the new Shield reverse and although I believe PCGS should have gone back to the original obverse of Lincoln on the front of the holder then, I could live with it because it was the first year of the Shield design. Now it is 2011. I have seen the same shield reverse being used on Lincoln proofs. WHY? Can we request that the traditional Lincoln obverse with the date (2011) be shown on the front of the Holder again? Doesn't it make sense to holder the coin that way? I appreciate your response. Steve

vann · February 19, 2011 11:37AM

<< They are also produced on special presses (using greater force) instead of the presses on the mint's main production floor.

This sentence is misleading you. The same presses are used, however they are set up as dual instead of quad (which is normal). Striking pressure might be set a little higher, but I really doubt it has much difference in the depth of strike. >>

I read in a Coin World (April 27, 2009) article the Philadelphia Mint also has four stand-alone presses that are used for special runs in adddition to the 63 presses used for circulating coinage production on the main floor. Since the mints description refers to the mint set coins being struck on special presses, I would assume the four-stand alone presses are the ones used. Possibly the vertical presses Cladking suggests?

ClosedLoop · February 19, 2011 11:47PM

ttt...I would like to hear a response to this topic as well...
I recieved my uncirculated set and these coins do not have the
same luster as a normal business strike has.

19Lyds · February 20, 2011 1:42AM

<< 

<< They are also produced on special presses (using greater force) instead of the presses on the mint's main production floor.

This sentence is misleading you. The same presses are used, however they are set up as dual instead of quad (which is normal). Striking pressure might be set a little higher, but I really doubt it has much difference in the depth of strike. >>

I read in a Coin World (April 27, 2009) article the Philadelphia Mint also has four stand-alone presses that are used for special runs in adddition to the 63 presses used for circulating coinage production on the main floor. Since the mints description refers to the mint set coins being struck on special presses, I would assume the four-stand alone presses are the ones used. Possibly the vertical presses Cladking suggests? >>

The Denver Mint would have to have the same presses.

Unless, of course, the Denver coins are actually produced in Philadelphia.

vann · February 20, 2011 3:42AM

Coin World had an interview with Marc Landry, plant superintendent at the Philadelphia mint in a Coin World article from November 1, 2010. In the article the plant superintendent stated that the finish on the 2011 mint set coins will be more of a BU finish similar to to the finish used on the mint sets prior to 2005. The reason Landry gave for the return back to the traditional finish was an effort to extend die life, as die life can be nearly doubled using a BU finish rather than a satin one. He said the mint can reach 50,000 strikes per die pair for BU quarters before replacing the dies, but the satin finish only yielded 25,000 strikes per die.

The satin finish dies used from 2005-2010 were sandblasted with a mixture of fine sand and glass beads to create a satin finish. The dies for the 2011 BU mint sets coins don't have any special sandblast treatment according to Paul Zwizanski, numismatic division chief at the Philadelphia mint. All the dies for the 2011 mint set are coated with a process known as 'physical vapor deposition' (PVD) or sputtering which replaces the previous chrome electroplating used for proof and mint set dies. Zwizanski said the blanks for all denominations except the Lincoln cent continue to be burnished with steel media immersed in a chemical brightening agent for the coins used in mint sets. For circulation strikes, only the dollar blanks are burnished before striking.

All circulating coin denominations are struck on presses with horizontal dies. For mint set coins, the cent, 5-cent and dime planchets are struck on horizontal die presses, while the quarter, half dollar and dollars continue to be struck on vertical die presses. After striking the mint set coins are assembled using robotics and are manually inspected for striking defects and coins rotated within their placement. Landry said hundreds of sets can be disassembled for having coins rotated in the packaging or for substandard coins. The coins are then recycled according to composition in order to reclaim the metal. Properly assembled Philadelphia Mint sets are then shipped to the Denver Mint to complete the 28-coin set and shipped to the fulfillment center.

19Lyds · February 23, 2011 8:08AM

After my sets arrived, I inspected them and was pleasantly surprised.

Much, much better than last years Satin Finish. So much so that instead of selecting sets to return, I was mentally selecting coins for submission.
The standard hits still exist on some of the coins but those unsightly scrapes appear to be gone. The down side to this minting process is that weakness of strike seems to be augmented near the outer edges of the face as annealing marks appear to be ever present. Some rather unsightly annealing marks can appear on cheek bones and fields.

The Kennedy's have what appears to be a relief I havn't seen in quite some time with nice high cheek bones.

All in all, I'd expect higher than normal grades for these coins and hopefully, the US Mint can keep up the good work for future releases.

Oh yeah, the first two sets I opened were very nice but the quality seemed to dwindle on the last three. Still, I think they're keepers. I won;t go so far as to state that average grades will be in the 67-69 range though as even though the coin look nice, once those annealing marks show on the lettering and near the edges, the grades will get limited.
I'm thinking MS66 might be the average grade with some high grades sprinkled in. MS69 will certainly be possible but not necessarily average.

MsMorrisine · February 23, 2011 8:27AM

<< For circulation strikes, only the dollar blanks are burnished before striking. >>

I'll bet they tarnish quickly.

Has PCGS made any decision on the finish on 2011 Mint Set coins?

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