A couple of thoughts come to mind. First, I find the most pleasure in the hobby in the search, not in the owning. Having someone else find most for me would take all of the fun out of it. Second, I enjoy quality as much as the next, but a hole in one of the sets I'm working on is currently filled with a damaged VG piece. I was quite happy to find it - I may never see another example.
One way to tell you've built a great collection is when you go to sell. Are dealers and collectors in your series clamoring for your coins, or do they elicit yawns (or worse)? Will you even make your money back? It's fairly easy to build a high-ranking registry set without leaving the comfort of your home. I've done it myself. However, unless someone has turned around and sold these coins for solid profits, I wouldn't yet call this a great collection. My internet-only registry collection was a good education (and, like most good educations, I paid a price).
There's a lot of dreck out there, even in MS67 holders. Where does MS67 dreck go? Onto the internet, auction houses, and into the inventory of dealers that don't know the difference. And probably eventually into the collections of internet-only buyers.
Buying without a dealer is fine for many coins, especially if someone has John J. Pittman's special eye for quality. However, I believe that one's collection will markedly benefit by looking at many coins in hand, and working with multiple dealers who have an eye for quality in the series they collect, and with whom the collector feels comfortable and valued. These dealers don't all have to be the big-name, mega-dealers that Laura refers to.
<< <i>One way to tell you've built a great collection is when you go to sell. Are dealers and collectors in your series clamoring for your coins, or do they elicit yawns (or worse)? Will you even make your money back? It's fairly easy to build a high-ranking registry set without leaving the comfort of your home. I've done it myself. However, unless someone has turned around and sold these coins for solid profits, I wouldn't yet call this a great collection. My internet-only registry collection was a good education (and, like most good educations, I paid a price).
There's a lot of dreck out there, even in MS67 holders. Where does MS67 dreck go? Onto the internet, auction houses, and into the inventory of dealers that don't know the difference. And probably eventually into the collections of internet-only buyers.
Buying without a dealer is fine for many coins, especially if someone has John J. Pittman's special eye for quality. However, I believe that one's collection will markedly benefit by looking at many coins in hand, and working with multiple dealers who have an eye for quality in the series they collect, and with whom the collector feels comfortable and valued. These dealers don't all have to be the big-name, mega-dealers that Laura refers to. >>
Second, I enjoy quality as much as the next, but a hole in one of the sets I'm working on is currently filled with a damaged VG piece. I was quite happy to find it - I may never see another example.
I've been known to do the same, but I would never do it if I were confident that a better one would come along later. Even if a better one would likely be beyond my budget.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>#2 Pick a good dealer. You think you can do it on your own-WRONG! EVERY major world class collector has ALWAYS had a dealer with them the whole way. Pick a collectors name, Pittman, Bass, Eliasberg, EVERY MAJOR COLLECTOR has had a dealer working with them. A good dealer will not only help you get the "right" coins, but will save you from the bad ones. Overtime, they should also become you collecting buddy or partner. >>
There is another needed addendum to this #2 comment.
The opposite is also to be avoided. Never give multiple dealers your want list of needed coins for your collection, in my view. It only serves to get more dealers bidding on the same coin that you want and end up with a potentially more expensive coin. One dealer per coin at a time OR do it on your own, possibly working with one dealer at a time (per coin or per set whichever works for you as a collector).
I have noticed that collectors who have the time or wants to expend the time in the "hunt" will tend to be more of a "free agent" in the pursuit of a coin. I believe I fit that description as an example. For example, when I went out to pursue a great sample slab collection which is certainly NOT a registry set type collection, I did it all on my own in negotiating with another great collector. A second example, when I went out and pursued a great pattern or a California Fractional gold piece, I found them in a dizzying array of ways, some of them directly through great dealers including Lustig, Legend, Parrino, Kagin, and others, some of them through buying on my own account at all the auction houses and traveling as needed to all of the auctions or to at least view the patterns, etc and yet some others in direct negotiations with other collectors or even finding them on my own on the bourse floor. I admit that I have had some guidance in the last three years in reviewing my entire collection by a individual (JA) I have revered for a long time and even then I argued with him on some points, some of them very comically. But that is the subject for another thread.
<< <i>Second, I enjoy quality as much as the next, but a hole in one of the sets I'm working on is currently filled with a damaged VG piece. I was quite happy to find it - I may never see another example.
I've been known to do the same, but I would never do it if I were confident that a better one would come along later. Even if a better one would likely be beyond my budget. >>
I'm fortunate in that what I'm looking for isn't prohibitively expensive, just darned tough to find. BTW, what's this "budget" thing?
<< <i>Mr. Eureka, for the record, who were the dealers behind Bass, Bareford, Eliasberg, Pittman, Norweb, Stack, Pryor? I have no real clue other than who auctioned those collections.
roadrunner >>
Mike Brownlee was the main dealer behind the Bass collection, although both Stanley Kesselman and myself helped out as well. Harry would certainly purchase from other dealers as well, but Mike almost always saw the coins.
Stack's was the firm that sold the Clapp collection to Eliasberg and Harvey was very close with Mr. Eliasberg for many, many years.
John Pittman did most of the assembling of the collection by himself, I believe. John was one of the few collectors to attend the Farouk sale, in person.
Norweb purchased from many, but she was close with John Ford for a long time.
Stack's, I believe helped James A. Stack with his collection, although there was no relation to him.
Jim Pryor built his collection by dealing with many dealers, although I was one of them. He had an excellent eye.
Hope that this helps. >>
Julian, that's about the coolest thing I've ever read on these boards. Thank you sir. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Andy brings up some great points as usual, however... if you want an 1870-S $3, you don't have an awful lot of choice if you don't want dreck do ya?
As far as her comments on XF Barbers... no kidding, that's not their market is it? I don't think that she called them dreck, certainly John Albanese didn't call most of mine dreck when they went to him for an "inspection"
What's she saying? Buy and collect what YOU want and don't be a registry slave and to buy the best that you can afford and to not buy crappy coins? And again we have pages of arguing?
I haven't bought much from Legend (Coinfest 08 IIRC I bought a few gold coins from them and not too long ago a couple Liberty Nickels) but that's because they don't sell what I collect. If they did carry XF Barbers we'd probably do a lot more business but that's immaterial here.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
I can see how Laura's advice is great for collectors like Simpson and a handful of others but the vast majority do not need to limit themselves. Legend has great coins from what i have seen in person (At Fort Worth Tx last year and on the net) but you generally pay for that convience.
IMO only i think buying PQ untoned 64's (morgans, peace, walkers, mercs common dates) for over greysheet is a sure fire way for most to lose money. Dealers like those coins for greysheet bid or percent back of bid cause they can get a premie on them at shows, but collectors can not recoup the added premie if they try to dispose of them.
To me coins are like slot machines, you go once a week and put 1000 in the machine and before long you have only 700 left, some trips you do even worse and one in a blue moon you break even. Just about every trip you make someone in the crowded room of 1000 scores big(generally not you)
IMO if you put blinders on and use one dealer and never question them or do much research you will do far more for their bottom line and not yours.
If i was going to spend 1 million on more on coins i am going with Mark Feld.
It was so cold last week in Fort Worth Texas that lawyers were seen for the first time in decades with their hands in their own pockets.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
<< <i>>>#2 Pick a good dealer. You think you can do it on your own-WRONG! EVERY major world class collector has ALWAYS had a dealer with them the whole way. Pick a collectors name, Pittman, Bass, Eliasberg, EVERY MAJOR COLLECTOR has had a dealer working with them. A good dealer will not only help you get the "right" coins, but will save you from the bad ones. Overtime, they should also become you collecting buddy or partner.>>
i disagree with point #2 to a degree......you will notice the names they mention are all Pre-Internet.......i think that today a collector could do just fine on his or her own >>
As much as going ahead and doing things yourself. Nothing can beat learning from an experienced dealer hands on. It might be a challange to find a good trust worthy dealer but once you do there is alot that can be learned and advice that can help you greatly online. every good dealer who has been around a while has some tips for dealing with other dealers and sellers on ebay that could come in handy and also outside of that teaching you about the coins your buying ( never know they may be very familar with what your doing. Think of this place like a glorified B&M. The knowledge in this place could fill many stadiums. I bet if some of these guys and gals had or has a B&M what type of knowledge would be missed out on if you didnt go to a local B&M?
Founder of the NDCCA. *WAM Count : 025. *NDCCA Database Count : 2,610. *You suck 6/24/10. In memory of Tiggar 5/21/1994 - 5/28/2010
From the standpoint of the "small fish" collector, the focus should be on coins that are "good for the grade" with above average eye appeal.
Regardless of your specific tastes or budget, you can't go wrong with this strategy -- you'll have coins that you enjoy looking at and showing off, and when the time comes you'll find it easier to divest.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>I can see how Laura's advice is great for collectors like Simpson and a handful of others but the vast majority do not need to limit themselves. Legend has great coins from what i have seen in person (At Fort Worth Tx last year and on the net) but you generally pay for that convience. >>
That's basically who she is speaking to and that's by and large her clientele, high end collectors.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
Comments
Steve
<< <i>I get great coins cause I always pay full retail....
Which TV show do you buy from??? >>
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
There's a lot of dreck out there, even in MS67 holders. Where does MS67 dreck go? Onto the internet, auction houses, and into the inventory of dealers that don't know the difference. And probably eventually into the collections of internet-only buyers.
Buying without a dealer is fine for many coins, especially if someone has John J. Pittman's special eye for quality. However, I believe that one's collection will markedly benefit by looking at many coins in hand, and working with multiple dealers who have an eye for quality in the series they collect, and with whom the collector feels comfortable and valued. These dealers don't all have to be the big-name, mega-dealers that Laura refers to.
<< <i>One way to tell you've built a great collection is when you go to sell. Are dealers and collectors in your series clamoring for your coins, or do they elicit yawns (or worse)? Will you even make your money back? It's fairly easy to build a high-ranking registry set without leaving the comfort of your home. I've done it myself. However, unless someone has turned around and sold these coins for solid profits, I wouldn't yet call this a great collection. My internet-only registry collection was a good education (and, like most good educations, I paid a price).
There's a lot of dreck out there, even in MS67 holders. Where does MS67 dreck go? Onto the internet, auction houses, and into the inventory of dealers that don't know the difference. And probably eventually into the collections of internet-only buyers.
Buying without a dealer is fine for many coins, especially if someone has John J. Pittman's special eye for quality. However, I believe that one's collection will markedly benefit by looking at many coins in hand, and working with multiple dealers who have an eye for quality in the series they collect, and with whom the collector feels comfortable and valued. These dealers don't all have to be the big-name, mega-dealers that Laura refers to. >>
Well said on all accounts.
About ten years ago I bought a few very rare seated coins as hole-fillers. Real drecky looking stuff.
I made a lot of money when I sold them.
So, I am proud to be a "chatroom chimp"
I've been known to do the same, but I would never do it if I were confident that a better one would come along later. Even if a better one would likely be beyond my budget.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>#2 Pick a good dealer. You think you can do it on your own-WRONG! EVERY major world class collector has ALWAYS had a dealer with them the whole way. Pick a collectors name, Pittman, Bass, Eliasberg, EVERY MAJOR COLLECTOR has had a dealer working with them. A good dealer will not only help you get the "right" coins, but will save you from the bad ones. Overtime, they should also become you collecting buddy or partner. >>
There is another needed addendum to this #2 comment.
The opposite is also to be avoided. Never give multiple dealers your want list of needed coins for your collection, in my view. It only serves to get more dealers bidding on the same coin that you want and end up with a potentially more expensive coin. One dealer per coin at a time OR do it on your own, possibly working with one dealer at a time (per coin or per set whichever works for you as a collector).
I have noticed that collectors who have the time or wants to expend the time in the "hunt" will tend to be more of a "free agent" in the pursuit of a coin. I believe I fit that description as an example. For example, when I went out to pursue a great sample slab collection which is certainly NOT a registry set type collection, I did it all on my own in negotiating with another great collector. A second example, when I went out and pursued a great pattern or a California Fractional gold piece, I found them in a dizzying array of ways, some of them directly through great dealers including Lustig, Legend, Parrino, Kagin, and others, some of them through buying on my own account at all the auction houses and traveling as needed to all of the auctions or to at least view the patterns, etc and yet some others in direct negotiations with other collectors or even finding them on my own on the bourse floor. I admit that I have had some guidance in the last three years in reviewing my entire collection by a individual (JA) I have revered for a long time and even then I argued with him on some points, some of them very comically. But that is the subject for another thread.
<< <i>Second, I enjoy quality as much as the next, but a hole in one of the sets I'm working on is currently filled with a damaged VG piece. I was quite happy to find it - I may never see another example.
I've been known to do the same, but I would never do it if I were confident that a better one would come along later. Even if a better one would likely be beyond my budget. >>
I'm fortunate in that what I'm looking for isn't prohibitively expensive, just darned tough to find. BTW, what's this "budget" thing?
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Mr. Eureka, for the record, who were the dealers behind Bass, Bareford, Eliasberg, Pittman, Norweb, Stack, Pryor? I have no real clue other than who auctioned those collections.
roadrunner >>
Mike Brownlee was the main dealer behind the Bass collection, although both Stanley Kesselman and myself helped out as well. Harry would certainly purchase from other dealers as well, but Mike almost always saw the coins.
Stack's was the firm that sold the Clapp collection to Eliasberg and Harvey was very close with Mr. Eliasberg for many, many years.
John Pittman did most of the assembling of the collection by himself, I believe. John was one of the few collectors to attend the Farouk sale, in person.
Norweb purchased from many, but she was close with John Ford for a long time.
Stack's, I believe helped James A. Stack with his collection, although there was no relation to him.
Jim Pryor built his collection by dealing with many dealers, although I was one of them. He had an excellent eye.
Hope that this helps. >>
Julian, that's about the coolest thing I've ever read on these boards. Thank you sir. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Andy brings up some great points as usual, however... if you want an 1870-S $3, you don't have an awful lot of choice if you don't want dreck do ya?
As far as her comments on XF Barbers... no kidding, that's not their market is it? I don't think that she called them dreck, certainly John Albanese didn't call most of mine dreck when they went to him for an "inspection"
What's she saying? Buy and collect what YOU want and don't be a registry slave and to buy the best that you can afford and to not buy crappy coins? And again we have pages of arguing?
I haven't bought much from Legend (Coinfest 08 IIRC I bought a few gold coins from them and not too long ago a couple Liberty Nickels) but that's because they don't sell what I collect. If they did carry XF Barbers we'd probably do a lot more business but that's immaterial here.
IMO only i think buying PQ untoned 64's (morgans, peace, walkers, mercs common dates) for over greysheet is a sure fire way for most to lose money. Dealers like those coins for greysheet bid or percent back of bid cause they can get a premie on them at shows, but collectors can not recoup the added premie if they try to dispose of them.
To me coins are like slot machines, you go once a week and put 1000 in the machine and before long you have only 700 left, some trips you do even worse and one in a blue moon you break even. Just about every trip you make someone in the crowded room of 1000 scores big(generally not you)
IMO if you put blinders on and use one dealer and never question them or do much research you will do far more for their bottom line and not yours.
If i was going to spend 1 million on more on coins i am going with Mark Feld.
It was so cold last week in Fort Worth Texas that lawyers were seen for the first time in decades with their hands in their own pockets.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Make a ton of money, probably in some other field.
http://www.shieldnickels.net
<< <i>>>#2 Pick a good dealer. You think you can do it on your own-WRONG! EVERY major world class collector has ALWAYS had a dealer with them the whole way. Pick a collectors name, Pittman, Bass, Eliasberg, EVERY MAJOR COLLECTOR has had a dealer working with them. A good dealer will not only help you get the "right" coins, but will save you from the bad ones. Overtime, they should also become you collecting buddy or partner.>>
i disagree with point #2 to a degree......you will notice the names they mention are all Pre-Internet.......i think that today a collector could do just fine on his or her own >>
As much as going ahead and doing things yourself. Nothing can beat learning from an experienced dealer hands on. It might be a challange to find a good trust worthy dealer but once you do there is alot that can be learned and advice that can help you greatly online. every good dealer who has been around a while has some tips for dealing with other dealers and sellers on ebay that could come in handy and also outside of that teaching you about the coins your buying ( never know they may be very familar with what your doing. Think of this place like a glorified B&M. The knowledge in this place could fill many stadiums. I bet if some of these guys and gals had or has a B&M what type of knowledge would be missed out on if you didnt go to a local B&M?
From the standpoint of the "small fish" collector, the focus should be on coins that are "good for the grade" with above average eye appeal.
Regardless of your specific tastes or budget, you can't go wrong with this strategy -- you'll have coins that you enjoy looking at and showing off, and when the time comes you'll find it easier to divest.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>I can see how Laura's advice is great for collectors like Simpson and a handful of others but the vast majority do not need to limit themselves. Legend has great coins from what i have seen in person (At Fort Worth Tx last year and on the net) but you generally pay for that convience. >>
That's basically who she is speaking to and that's by and large her clientele, high end collectors.