Opinion 1893-S Barber Half (Large Pics) Updated

USAFRETWI · February 12, 2011 6:41AM

This coin looks much better in hand than the pics show. Pics are enhancing some of the scratches that are on the slab. However, the scratches on the obverse are in the lower points. Seems odd. I still like it a lot, think PCGS would downgrade to a 58? This was bought on Teletrade. Do you think it would body bag if resubmitted? And if it would does teletrade have a return policy?

Ken

DoubleEagle59 · February 12, 2011 6:49AM

I know that coin 'should' get bodybagged with today's tight grading regarding hairlines, be it PCGS, NGC or even Anacs.

lkeigwin · February 12, 2011 6:58AM

If you do a spot review with PCGS and they feel it should be in a genuine holder you will be reimbursed for the loss in value.
Lance.

abitofthisabitofthat · February 12, 2011 6:59AM

I would bet very heavily on a Genuine - Cleaned slab if the coin was cracked and re-submitted.

USAFRETWI · February 12, 2011 7:09AM

How does the spot review work? I'm in this coin at PCGS price guide for a 61. If it re-slabs Genuine. They pay the difference between 61 and Genuine? Tough, tough coin.

Ken

291fifth · February 12, 2011 7:11AM

If regraded today I suspect it would come back in a "genuine" holder with the cleaned code.

LindeDad · February 12, 2011 7:20AM

Does it say Bow-Wow or Arf--Arf?

If I had just got it I would be on the phone with TeleTrade getting the return set up.

lkeigwin · February 12, 2011 7:21AM

<< <i>How does the spot review work? I'm in this coin at PCGS price guide for a 61. If it re-slabs Genuine. They pay the difference between 61 and Genuine? Tough, tough coin.

Ken >>

If PCGS agrees to BB it you will be given the option of getting the coin back in a genuine slab along with a check for the difference in value between a graded one and a genuine one, or letting PCGS keep the coin and instead accept a check for the value of the coin if it weren't a "problem" one.

The valuations are PCGS's call and will be less than price guide. Some folks debate the matter and sometimes (rarely?) get a bigger check.

The spot review is free, though you are on the hook for S&I both ways.
Lance.

DennisH · February 12, 2011 7:34AM

I've always had to pay for grade reviews. I've always been compensated very fairly, too.

MrEureka · February 12, 2011 7:48AM

Yes, the coin has been cleaned. Yes, there's some staining, probably a long term result of a less-than-perfect removal of dip residue. But all things considered, the grade still looks about right.

As for the PCGS guaranty, the coin is worth almost as much raw (or in a genuine holder), so that's probably not your exit. Just sell or return the thing if you don't like it.

ModCrewman · February 12, 2011 7:59AM

Don't think anyone has said it yet, but if you want any chance of being compensated by PCGS, don't break it out before sending it to them!

That being said...does this coin look like a proof strike to anyone else? (I realize they didn't make proof coins with an "S" mintmark, but it certainly looks like an incredible strike to my non-expert eye.)

dogwood · February 12, 2011 8:04AM

Proof Like strike maybe. Some of those hairlines don't hit the devices and appear to go right under them as it were.
Sadly, many of them look after strike. Still, pretty hammered.

DonWillis · February 12, 2011 10:03AM

It is difficult to tell what is on the holder vs. what is on the coin. My first thought is that it doesn't look too bad for a 61.

Why are you asking what you should do if the coin looks "much better in hand". Does that mean that it looks better in hand than the online image you saw when you bought it? I would think you would be happy.

You can always send it in to PCGS for a re-grade if you like. If we decide to downgrade it we will either make you an offer to buy the coin, or offer the coin back to you in a lower grade along with compensation for the downgrade. Of course we could grade it 61 again - or higher.

Or if you are at any major show you can come by and get a free evaluaiton from us.

If you want to return it to Teletrade you will have to contact them. I have no idea what their return policy is. The PCGS grade guarantee stands no matter what you choose.

Rampage · February 12, 2011 10:43AM

<< <i>It is difficult to tell what is on the holder vs. what is on the coin. My first thought is that it doesn't look too bad for a 61.

Why are you asking what you should do if the coin looks "much better in hand". Does that mean that it looks better in hand than the online image you saw when you bought it? I would think you would be happy.

You can always send it in to PCGS for a re-grade if you like. If we decide to downgrade it we will either make you an offer to buy the coin, or offer the coin back to you in a lower grade along with compensation for the downgrade. Of course we could grade it 61 again - or higher.

Or if you are at any major show you can come by and get a free evaluaiton from us.

If you want to return it to Teletrade you will have to contact them. I have no idea what their return policy is. The PCGS grade guarantee stands no matter what you choose. >>

And there you have it. PCGS steps up once again. Fantastic Don.

Not that my opinion matters any, but the coin does look good for the grade of MS61.

Cratylus · February 12, 2011 11:04AM

Ken,
I would recommend a PCGS review, but not just for the hairline issue. I am noticing the style of the "S" mintmark and it appears to be the style used on the 1892-S (appearing thinner and slightly elongated). I've never seen this style of "S" on an 1893-S, but then again I've never paid attention to lower grade examples so maybe I'm wrong. Given the potentially odd mintmark and the extremely strong strike, is it possible that we're looking at a cleaned Specimen Proof?

USAFRETWI · February 12, 2011 11:10AM

I was in no way questioning PCGS's Guarentee on this...... The pics from teletrade didnt show the hairlines or die polish. Given that the 93-S is one of the toughest if not the toughest Barber in high grades I was just looking for opinions on what everyone thought.

Ken

TomB · February 12, 2011 11:17AM

Looks MS. Looks heavily hairlined. Looks to have been dipped with a subsequent improper rinse. Whatever you do, don't crack it out of the holder.

veryfine · February 12, 2011 11:51AM

That 93-S has a superb strike. The eagle's talon detail is very sharp.
Yes, it has some "issues", but isn't that true for all MS-61 coins?

DoubleEagle59 · February 12, 2011 12:22PM

I honestly don't understand the responses that say this coin is OK for the grade.

Almost all of the hairlines are positioned in the same orientation, indicating a cleaning, rubbing or wiping of some sort.

Every coin I've sent in (with these hairlines), I mean EVERYONE, and others I have seen that don't even have 50% the amount of these 'aligned hairlines' have ALWAYS come back as a bodybag (graded 'Genuine").

If this coin grades OK, I ask where is the consistency in grading standards??

Let's all get on the same page people.

Either this is OK to grade or not.

There's no grey area here.

veryfine · February 12, 2011 12:40PM

<< <i>I honestly don't understand the responses that say this coin is OK for the grade.

Almost all of the hairlines are positioned in the same orientation, including a cleaning, rubbing or wiping of some sort.

Every coin I've sent in (with these hairlines), I mean EVERYONE, and others I have seen that don't even have 50% the amount of these 'aligned hairlines' have ALWAYS come back as a bodybag (graded 'Genuine").

If this coin grades OK, I ask where is the consistency in grading standards??

Let's all get on the same page people.

Either this is OK to grade or not.

There's no grey area here. >>

You could be right, but after all, it is a photographs and photographs often dramatically distort reality, especially reflective, metallic objects.
Perhaps the lighting and scale of the image amplifies these problems.
Perhaps some lines are on the plastic holder.
Is it possible that some of the hairlines are the result of die polishing?

MFH · February 12, 2011 1:13PM

Ken,

Your 93-S is highly PL - and its a shame that
our host doesn't recognize that designation.

The coin you're showing looks MS - I see no
rub - and the Reverse "hairlines" are not post
mint damage - they look like die polish lines
[ at least on the Reverse ! ]. The Obverse is
another story, IMHO. The marks on the OBV are
post mint damage - and look like slide marks
mixed with excessive rubbing on the high points.

I agree with the majority of opinion on this coin,
keep the coin in its OGH PCGS Holder - resubmit
the coin for Presidential Review - and see where
the coin ends up. If you like the coin - regardless
of the new grade - keep it - with the PCGS recom-
pence for the variation in the grade [ as Don Willis
mentioned, the coin very well may come back in
the same grade - then again it could come back
in a higher grade. ]

Here is my 1893-S in PCGS 58 for comparison purposes:

RedHerring · February 12, 2011 1:22PM

Take a gander at these Teletrade images and post your comments.

The realized price has me wondering what's going on. Send this piece back ASAP.

Teletrade Completed Listing!

DoubleEagle59 · February 12, 2011 1:24PM

The reverse lines do look like polishing lines as the hairlines are only in the fields and do not cross the relief points.

However, the obverse lines definitely are not and according to recent strict 'hairline' grading, should be graded as Genuine.

I see no other alternative.

USAFRETWI · February 12, 2011 1:32PM

I was the winner on that teletade auction, those pics from the auction look like the coin in hand for the most part, the coin has luster closer to my pics but mine show the scratches more............

MFH · February 12, 2011 1:33PM

<< <i>The reverse lines do look like polishing lines as the hairlines are only in the fields and do not cross the relief points.

However, the obverse lines definitely are not and according to recent strict 'hairline' grading, should be graded as Genuine.

I see no other alternative. >>

I agree - and to bring up Cary's very insightful observation,
yes there is a slight difference inbetween the 92 & 93 - S
Mint Marks - the 93's "S" is a tad fatter than the 92's "S".

Ken, your MM is closer to the 92's "S".

RedHerring · February 12, 2011 1:56PM

Well you're setting a new price standard at $1750 on that one. I'd want to be very happy with the coin or it'd be going back to Teletrade. PCGS Price Guide is at $550 in 61. I don't want to see anybody buiried in a coin because it's not a pleasant feeling.

dogwood · February 12, 2011 2:22PM

$550 will get you a nice PCGS VF25 in the real marketplace, actually.
Maybe a 30.

USAFRETWI · February 12, 2011 2:34PM

MS61 PCGS price guide is 2000.00. This is hard to explain on the obverse most of the hairlines don't go through the raised fields however under a 10 power loupe most of these are hard to see. There are scratches on the cheek from rubbing.

I'm going to send it to PCGS for review, I really don't think it's going to bag after looking at it again.

rld14 · February 12, 2011 3:54PM

Ya know... it's funny, I've been thinking about this coin a bit this evening (Except when I was out for dinner with a very lovely young lady... yes Broadstruck, THAT one!

) and I think that I am sticking with what I said earlier to ya.

I must have just spent the past 5 minutes studying this coin.. here's what I think.

First, the coin is HAMMERED and has a proof like look to it, just like MFH said and he is certainly one of my "Barber Mentors". I think that we have two things going on here with the surfaces, die polish and abrasions that are PMD and that's what's confusing a lot of people. Most of what I see in the fields that people think are hairlines from it being scrubbed are die polish lines. However I think that I see a bit of friction on the cheek, not rub from wear, but slide marks from either being in an old cabinet or having acetate slides from an old album rubbed across it.

It's also obviously been dipped, and those two reasons are why it's a 61 and not a higher grade. Being blunt, 61s rarely have great surfaces/eye appeal, and I think that the coin looks fine for a 61. Is it a beautiful 63/4/5? Nope. Price guide on those is $4,000/9,000/25,000. I paid less for a 3 year old Jaguar XJ8 than what PCGS says an MS65 93-S is worth, that's a lot of money. Personally I like this coin a LOT better than one that's been beaten to death in a bag and 61'd for that.

Assuming those are die polish lines it is a heck of a lot of 93-S for the money and I'd call it well bought.

RedHerring · February 12, 2011 4:12PM

I was looking at Quarter Dollars - tired tonight - sorry.

BigRick · February 12, 2011 11:00PM

Me likey but I would send it to PCGS and see what they think (of course, you'll lose the OGH!). Perhaps AU58 & a check for $500?

Heritage sold an XF45 for $1,610 last month & an MS61 4/15/08 for $2,432.25

Teletrade's pics certainly hid the hairlines (and as usual the luster as well) well ( LINK ) - I see it worth the $2,028.25 that you paid though:

streeter · February 13, 2011 1:41AM

USAFRETWI,

I have a question.

Had you been looking at that coin on Teletrade and Teletrade was using the close-ups that you provided....Would you have bid the price you did?

USAFRETWI · February 13, 2011 2:21AM

Good point, no I wouldn't have. Sending it back to TT tomorrow. I wonder if I will have to eat the 110.00 return fee. Dont think I should have to based on their pictures and no mention of the scratches.

Ken

rhedden · February 13, 2011 3:04AM

I once got a similar coin from Teletrade, an ugly Barber dime in a PCGS MS62 holder. After I posted it on here, most agreed it was scratched and not worthy of a MS designation. A Teletrade rep. saw the thread and called me the next day, buying the coin back at full price. Maybe if you call them and discuss the situation, they will see your side of the story. They are reasonable, sometimes generous, with situations like this one.

I feel this coin is not worthy of a MS61 grade. I would not have submitted it to PCGS, personally. I think you will be buried in it if you keep it.

USAFRETWI · February 23, 2011 3:41AM

Sent the coin back, waiting on refund.

For 7 days now.....

Opinion 1893-S Barber Half (Large Pics) Updated

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