BST Scumbag Alert!!!

Loki · January 28, 2011 2:46AM

A classic Bait, Steal, and Take-off transaction.

Purchased a Jackson First Spouse Proof gold coin from a scumbag known as Henson4. Paid via Paypal. Said he would ship Jan 11.
No coin, no response to my PM's, just took my hard-saved money and rode off in the sunset.

So watch out for a scumbag known as Henson4.

My lesson is: If (and that's a big IF) I decide to purchase anything in the future from the BST, the seller better give me 1) a verifiable phone number, and 2) a verifiable street address, otherwise no deal!

bushmaster8 · January 28, 2011 2:52AM

Sorry to hear. Did you use PP "gift"?

ajia · January 28, 2011 3:37AM

Loki,

Also sorry to hear that.
I would usually look at how long they've been around, do a search to see if they posted personal info, and if still questionable, ask for references.
With the advent of 'personal' payment you have to be even more cautious.

I would call the local police where Henson4 lives & see if they can make a house call.

RGJohn · January 28, 2011 4:07AM

There are so many honorable and decent people on here. I've done deals as both buyer and seller and every one went just as it should. (Except the one I botched of course. That was a mis-communication case. I thought he meant the lot was gone; seller thought I was backing out. I learned to be explicit.) And for multiples of the amount involved here. What a cheap chickenpoop thing for him to do. $1100 is not really a big paycheck but it is a lot to lose.
---
But if a person sends a 'gift' by PP I don't think one has recourse. You declared it a gift after all. Since I don't use PP ( I have good reasons) I resort to USPS money orders. Good as gold and if something goes hincky, you've got a paper trail and in a case like this, it's overt mail fraud.
----
I think a lot of us can learn from this ( like, is PP gift a case of pennywise and pound foolish? Basically you're scamming them and denying them what is rightfully their due.), and yes, telephone communication, etc are all perfectly legit to request. Any hesitancy on the other party's part is cause for major caution.
----
I am sorry for your loss and hope this is an isolated incident.

lordmarcovan · January 28, 2011 4:39AM

Sorry to hear that. The name doesn't ring a bell.

If he said he'd ship January 11th, and we're what, 17 days past that, maybe (just maybe) it's not too late for hope. Granted, that is too long and the lack of communication is worrisome, but there's still a small chance that maybe he (A) shipped it and it got held up in the mail somewhere, or (B) something happened to him and that's the reason your communications have gone unanswered.

I know it's a slender reed as far as hope goes, but I'm crossin' my fingers for ya'.

coinguy1 · January 28, 2011 4:47AM

You might want to edit your thread title, to include the name of the offending party - that is, if you are certain that he has scammed you. And if you aren't, this thread might be premature.

lordmarcovan · January 28, 2011 4:48AM

<< I think a lot of us can learn from this ( like, is PP gift a case of pennywise and pound foolish? Basically you're scamming them and denying them what is rightfully their due.), and yes, telephone communication, etc are all perfectly legit to request. Any hesitancy on the other party's part is cause for major caution. >>

I agree, and disagree. That's a very good suggestioin, pointing out that "gift" payments have no recourse for the sender.

However, I think "gift" is a misnomer, as PayPal has a tab that says "Personal" that you have to click to get to the "Gift" option, and "Gift" is one of several choices under the "Personal" tab (none of which cause any fees to the recipient). Note that one of these choices is "Payment Owed". If a coin transaction here on the forums isn't a "personal" transaction, for which there is a "payment owed", then what is? I for one was astonished when PayPal opened up this loophole, and that they've kept it going. They should have known it was open for abuse. But where is the wording that says you can't use it for personal transactions, for which a payment is owed, anyway? I could see cause for complaint if somebody was doing a large volume business and skirting the fees that way, but for single personal transactions, why not? If that is wrong, then they need to change the way the payment form looks. It's rather ambiguous. They get their pound of flesh from eBay transactions, anyway, and I would never ask somebody who buys from me on eBay to use the Personal tab. (How is that any different, you ask? Well, it isn't, I guess. That's where the ambiguity comes in.)

RGJohn · January 28, 2011 5:12AM

You are certainly quite rightLordM, that there is an enormous area of 'gray' here. I certainly didn't mean to sound other than supportive.
---
In regards to which, is there no person on this forum who has any knowledge of this (purported) scammer? Did he buy/sell anything previously? From his other posts, do we have knowledge of where he might reside? Sometimes, the most innocuous remarks, perhaps about sports teams or weather, give good indication of location, at least generally. Is he on other forums doing the same thing? He DID have pix of the Spouse coin but he may have obtained them online or something rather than having taken them himself.
---
If the price is suspiciously low ( I'm a little out of touch although I too have one), is somebody who's doing a lot of trade in this stuff (isn't a Jeremy Marks doing so here?) they might have seen this person post elsewhere or been approached by him.
----
Let's see if we can't find this person out. And discourage others tempted to emulate him.

jfoot13 · January 28, 2011 5:51AM

If you get the police involved they should be able to backtrack his paypal addy to his bank account and get you the information you seek as far as address and phone

JamesMurray · January 28, 2011 7:07AM

I think for the sum mentioned in his BST listing i'd be tempted to get the po po involved , you can also bet the scammer if indeed it is a scam is reading the board for developments

ebaybuyer · January 28, 2011 7:26AM

ive done very little selling here, mostly because it seems that every time i try to sell something somehow i inadvertantly word the post in such a way that i sound destitute, heres hoping you get your stuff or a refund

mkman123 · January 28, 2011 7:29AM

Loki I hope you catch the dirtbag! Keep us updated!

IHC08 · January 28, 2011 8:26AM

<< However, I think "gift" is a misnomer, as PayPal has a tab that says "Personal" that you have to click to get to the "Gift" option, and "Gift" is one of several choices under the "Personal" tab (none of which cause any fees to the recipient). Note that one of these choices is "Payment Owed". If a coin transaction here on the forums isn't a "personal" transaction, for which there is a "payment owed", then what is? >>

This wasn't easy to find on the PP site, but it's there link

What are the payment types when I send money?

The payment types for a purchase are:

Services: to pay for things like your internet service.
Goods: to pay for non-eBay goods.
eBay Items: to pay for your eBay purchases.

The payment types for a personal payment are:

Gift: to send money as a gift, like for a birthday.
Payment Owed: to pay your friend back for your share of a dinner bill, or to other item that your friend paid for you.
Cash Advance: payment not involving the purchase of goods or services. Your credit card provider may charge fees for a cash advance.
Living Expense: to pay for things like rent or utilities.
Other: for other reasons that aren't a purchase of goods or services.

Paypal defines "Payment Owed" as paying someone back money you owe them. Unless there's been a very recent change to their system you can't open a dispute on funds sent through any Personal payment method. See this post from a member who tried and was able to get satisfaction only by emptying his funded account before PayPal got to his money.

I'm sure 99% of the BST sellers are trustworthy, but I've missed out on plenty of items because they were listed as "paypal personal only".

lordmarcovan · January 28, 2011 9:13AM

Thanks for posting that.

So as I see it, having someone use the "Personal" tab will save the fees but of course he'll waive the protection and there won't be a mailing address attached (that has to be sent via other communication).

But I still don't see anything in the wording that excludes me from using this option for person-to-person BST transactions, provided I keep it to a fairly small number of transactions and both parties trust each other enough to waive the protection?

greghansen · January 28, 2011 9:20AM

Loki, I'm real sorry to hear about this experience. I still remember our face to face transaction at my offices a little over a year ago. I wish I had some great idea as to how to help you catch this crook. I hope it doesn't wind up being a hard lesson learned. If you ever get a name/addy for this person I'll be happy to help any way I can

ajia · January 28, 2011 10:05AM

Paypal also does not provide addresses with a personal payment, but did PP send you a name of the seller?
Well...a name does no good if you don't know the city or state.

What branch does something like this fall under? FBI?

DON'T let this be an expensive lesson, one bad apple shouldn't represent all sellers here.

COINB0Y · January 28, 2011 11:18AM

Sorry to hear this.

goingbroke · January 28, 2011 10:51PM

NOT ANOTHER ONE!

agentjim007 · January 28, 2011 11:11PM

cut the PP gift crap. Add the fee in your asking price and give the buyer protection.

RGJohn · January 28, 2011 11:22PM

<< If you get the police involved they should be able to backtrack his paypal addy to his bank account and get you the information you seek as far as address and phone >>

I think so too. And as a matter of good form one should report it. Plus, at least here in Colorado, it is a felony as the amount involved is over $1000. PP may chose to aid and abet this felony or they may chose to co-operate with the authorities. I would hope the latter.

RGJohn · January 28, 2011 11:45PM

<< 
So as I see it, having someone use the "Personal" tab will save the fees but of course he'll waive the protection and there won't be a mailing address attached (that has to be sent via other communication). >>

C'mon Lord M. This is scamming too. You're suggesting that you can 'get away with it', so it's OK. It's not. You're still snitching cookies from PP's jar. Transferring money is what they do. It ain't really stealing, just 'filching'. Until a situation like this arises. Then the ill-gotten savings of multiple transactions are lost in one fell swoop and more besides.

<< 
But I still don't see anything in the wording that excludes me from using this option for person-to-person BST transactions, provided I keep it to a fairly small number of transactions >>

No nothing explicit, but then again it is implied. If we had to specifically post prohibitions regarding every conceivable thing one should not do, the world would be filled with otherwise superfluous signage. I took a driver's license test but they never specifically told me not to run over old people or children. Do ya suppose it would be OK, maybe if just once or twice......? Keep it small and nobody will notice.

<< and both parties trust each other enough to waive the protection? >>

If you have that level of trust, what is the problem with a check? People here accept mine after the second or third time we do deals and I theirs. Prior to that, MOs. A USPS money order costs $1.10. Personal checks are even cheaper.
-----------
Think about it. Think, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

goingbroke · January 28, 2011 11:47PM

I buy alot of coins and PMs but I have decided that the Personal" tab at pay pal wont be something I will ever use!.

segoja · January 29, 2011 1:30AM

The local police will not help you. They do not care about internet theft. Takes too long to investigate

Paypal also does not care....personal experience with a $3200 item.

Have you tried reversing the charges?

Hotfootspin · January 29, 2011 2:19AM

When you buy a coin on the BST or anywhere else, and you pay for it using the
Paypal "gift" option, you are telling a lie, plain and simple. For that reason, I
decided a long time ago never to do that.

Note: as far as I can tell, the OP never said he paid for the coin using the PP
"gift" option, and I'm not accusing him of doing so.

Mark

RMLTM79 · January 29, 2011 3:38AM

We should have a list or a sticky of the people that have scammed others.
My rule of thumb is, if I don't know them or cant get anyone I know to vouch for them, I won't do busines with them.

oilstates2003 · January 29, 2011 5:08AM

<< We should have a list or a sticky of the people that have scammed others.
My rule of thumb is, if I don't know them or cant get anyone I know to vouch for them, I won't do busines with them. >>

we need a sticky of the names of these scam artist!

lordmarcovan · January 29, 2011 5:46AM

<< When you buy a coin on the BST or anywhere else, and you pay for it using the
Paypal "gift" option, you are telling a lie, plain and simple. For that reason, I decided a long time ago never to do that. >>

That's precisely the reason I always use the "Personal" tab's "Payment Owed" option, which most certainly is NOT telling a lie, as discussed above. Is it taking advantage of a loophole? You betcha. But by the wording of PayPal's own site, I see nowhere that it strays into dishonesty. If they were to change their rules and/or wording (as I am sure they will, before long), things might be different, but nobody's yet demonstrated to me where PayPal specifically prohibits the use of this Personal/Payment Owed tab for person-to-person transactions like we have here. I don't think I've ever violated the letter of the law.

Sorry if this PayPal discussion has hijacked Loki's OP. Perhaps it deserves its own thread, over on the USCF.

@RGJohn-

<< << So as I see it, having someone use the "Personal" tab will save the fees but of course he'll waive the protection and there won't be a mailing address attached (that has to be sent via other communication). >>

C'mon Lord M. This is scamming too. You're suggesting that you can 'get away with it', so it's OK. It's not. You're still snitching cookies from PP's jar. Transferring money is what they do. It ain't really stealing, just 'filching'. Until a situation like this arises. Then the ill-gotten savings of multiple transactions are lost in one fell swoop and more besides.

<<
But I still don't see anything in the wording that excludes me from using this option for person-to-person BST transactions, provided I keep it to a fairly small number of transactions >>

No nothing explicit, but then again it is implied. If we had to specifically post prohibitions regarding every conceivable thing one should not do, the world would be filled with otherwise superfluous signage. I took a driver's license test but they never specifically told me not to run over old people or children. Do ya suppose it would be OK, maybe if just once or twice......? Keep it small and nobody will notice.

<< and both parties trust each other enough to waive the protection? >>

If you have that level of trust, what is the problem with a check? People here accept mine after the second or third time we do deals and I theirs. Prior to that, MOs. A USPS money order costs $1.10. Personal checks are even cheaper. >>

And far slower.
-----------

<< Think about it. Think, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." >>

I for one have never "practiced to deceive". This is a matter of semantics. I see where you're coming from, now, but frankly I just never thought of it that way. Deception implies intent. I haven't had that intent. I'd be the first to admit what I've done, to PayPal or anyone else. Is taking advantage of a loophole being deceptive? Maybe. Maybe not.

Now that you've brought all this up, I suppose I'll think about this more in the future, but I'm still not sure I've totally come around to agreeing with you on the ethical issue here. I'll concede you've made some good points, however.

carew4me · January 29, 2011 5:58AM

Paypal developed the Personal payment options precisely because they knew they were scamming their customers by charging
the %2.9 fee on a paypal to paypal payment or a draw from the bank. It was costing them nothing and they were called on it (an losing customers).

I use this option any chance I get and all parties are happy because we can SAVE money on BOTH end of the deal.

A no brainer , unless you like to pay necessary fee's (in which case there are probably other anger issues at play).

lordmarcovan · January 29, 2011 6:04AM

@carew4me

If PayPal doesn't like me filching cookies from their open cookie jar, then let them put the lid back on it. If they change the letter of the law, I'll obey it, but as long as the loophole remains open, I'm gonna use it, unashamedly. Until PayPal asks me to cease and desist, or changes their wording.

Swampboy · January 29, 2011 6:42AM

<< If PayPal doesn't like me filching cookies from their open cookie jar, then let them put the lid back on it. If they change the letter of the law, I'll obey it, but as long as the loophole remains open, I'm gonna use it, unashamedly. Until PayPal asks me to cease and desist, or changes their wording. >>

I need to reply to this line of reasoning.
This may be a stretch but here goes.

I don't want to pay PP's fees but I want to use their service.
--------
I don't like the prices in this particular restaurant but I want their food. To make this 'transaction' more to MY liking I'll just take home this steak knife.

Frankly, I can't see the difference with either behavior and it isn't that difficult for me to keep track of what is mine and what is not mine.

Apologies to anyone whose BST listing I bumped off page 1.

storm888 · January 29, 2011 6:58AM

The PP "gift" provision means just what it says. A gift.

PP is an EVIL outfit, but using their service and stealing their fee
from them is a bit evil, too.

And, a buyer who helps a seller burn PP will, eventually, be left
w/o PP protection on a bad transaction.

......

PP UA (effective 11/1/10)

13.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods.

Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Intangible items, including Digital Goods
Services
Real estate, including residential property
Businesses
Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
Custom made items
Travel tickets, including airline flight tickets
Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
Items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf
Items that violate eBay’s Prohibited or Restricted Items Policy
Industrial machinery used in manufacturing
Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards
PayPal Direct Payments
Virtual Terminal Payments
Personal Payments (gifts)

Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection, you can file a Dispute and to try to resolve the issue directly with the seller, however, PayPal will generally not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim for an item which is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.

lordmarcovan · January 29, 2011 7:16AM

OK, OK. Y'all are bringin' me around to your way of thinking. If Swampboy is on the opposite side of the debate, maybe I'm wrong. He too scored a point with the "steak knife" metaphor. I surrender, mostly out of respect to him (and the fact that I can't really think of a good rebuttal to his steak knife analogy).

*sheesh*

Maybe if toe the line (even though that line was never clearly drawn), it'll save me some grief in the end, anyhow.

I never really considered the ethical issues of this until now. I do try to walk the straight and narrow as much as possible. I still look at this as a grey area, but I'd rather be light grey than dark grey, if you know what I mean.

So from now on my policy will be this: I won't complain if anybody sends me a no-fee payment, but I won't ask for it anymore, either.

Now- what about when I'm the one sending the payment and the other party has requested no fees? Will I pony up the 3% PayPal cut on my end? Remains to be seen. Maybe, I guess, though I confess I'll still be tempted to use the loophole. Unlike some, I've never really begrudged PP their fees- it's worth it to me, for the convenience of the service. But I usually do small transactions. I honestly was surprised they opened this loophole in the first place.

OK, I won't clutter up this thread anymore.

Hey, look- I just "waffled". Or that is what I'd be accused of if I were a politician. That's OK, though. I'm not a politician, and I like waffles. Pass the syrup, please.

Loki · January 30, 2011 7:46AM

Thanks for all the info that was posted. I have learned quite a bit. This info is priceless and will no doubt help me and, I suspect other people as well, with off-eBay dealings especially with Paypal.

Anyway my post only was meant to warn others about Henson4. I paid a total of $980 using a credit card via Paypal, so worst case, this is what I am out. Unfortunately it was thru the gift payment system, something I was always leary of, but I went against my better judgement with this transaction, and now am paying an expensive lesson. I realize paypal will do nothing to help me in my case, but I can play the "chargeback card". I just may do that but have decided to give the guy another week to see if maybe, just maybe, he will come around and do the right thing. So we'll see. Anyway, to all buyers that decide to use the gift payment option that Paypal provides, you are SOL when it comes to any problems that may arise. As a seller, I will never offer that option, and 3% that Paypal charges is reasonable and it doesn't make you look "greedy" to a potential buyer's eyes.

BST Scumbag Alert!!!

Comments