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The Modern debate continues...
jtryka
Posts: 795 ✭
I am not trying to bash modern collectors in this thread, so please don't be offended! I just have a question on them, would they be commanding the incredible prices they do if there were no such thing as a set registry? And this doesn't just pertain to moderns, as the prices of high grade classic coins have also surged with the advent of the registry, but not quite to the extent as nodern coins. As a gold collector, high grade Saints etc. have always commanded solid premiums, but there just aren't the number of folks running after MS-66 Saints for their registry sets (in my experience, most gold collectors are more infatuated by their coins than the registry, just look at how many sets there are in the gold category vs. others). Just a few thoughts...
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Latest half purchase
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
The Right Side Pop Report coins have always sold for a premium. With or without a Registry. The Registry simply brings that tidbit of knowledge to the forefront- probably so Threads like this may be generated.
As RLinn said, condition rarity may change substantially for given modern coins over time as submissions continue, although I think it unlikely to change much for MS/PR70's as long as PCGS stays as stingy with those grades as they currently are. You already see it happening over and over with each new issue of the Statehood quarters--prices may start out quite high at MS67 or 68, then drop much lower over a period of weeks or months. Patience is rewarded, if you can resist the overwhelming urge to buy!
I've only registered sets that were complete or would be completed soon, modern Lincoln proofs and business strikes. I collect 3 other classic series, but have little chance of completing them in a reasonable time. I'm content with acquiring a high end key or two every year. These are going to cost me $$ regardless of when I acquire them and how many people compete in the registry, so I can afford to wait for more hordes to be discovered and the classic pops increase.
Moderns are ruled a bit more by the registry game. I now make most of my own, so it's cheap. I also have a chance to make a nice profit if I make several.
Moderns also offer me a way to test how much PCGS will downgrade certain marks and strike types (cheaply). There's nothing more costly or painful than a bodybag'd classic.
perfectstrike
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>I've only registered sets that were complete or would be completed soon, modern Lincoln proofs and business strikes. >>
Ah Ha, your the one that bought that $11,000 Lincoln PR69DCAM at Heritage!!!
I have only been seriously collecting for about eight months.. Again,for me what is a classic?To me anything that is 100 years old is a classic. So I like Morgans,Seated Dollars, and Indian heads. But I have a standard which price wise is a little too high to collect these coins as anything more than a singular example. I like a coin that at a minimum is in ms-65 condition. Even in 65 these coins are for me, expensive. So I collect alot of date sets like the 1943,(1958 birth year) Bi cent set,Proof IKES,SACS,SBA`s. These coins I can afford in high grades. But I like the older coins but it comes down to the fact that I can`t afford to collect them in a set in the grade I like. I have an always ongoing odds and ends set that I will always try to add a nice example of older coins to,but the coins do not follow a theme or pattern.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
As for what constitutes a classic, there are many definitions, but personally, I view classics as any obsolete designs that no longer regularly circulate, from Large cents to Morgans, to Wheat cents, to Mercury Dimes, etc. (I am on the fence on Ikes, they are nice, but not quite classics yet). As far as the affordability factor, well that is your choice. MS-65 may be a good minimum on modern coins where getting an MS-70 is possible, but as a collector of double eagles, there are so many dates where none have been graded higher than MS-60 let alone MS-65! Even on my Franklin set, I only set my minimum at MS-63 (with great eye appeal), since they get really scarce on some dates higher than MS-65 FBL. But what you collect is entirely up to you. I collect a lot of circulated series, but I also like MS-65 Morgans (guess which one I have more of!) and sometimes I like uncs that aren't even slabbed. I have a complete set of BU Roosies, including all the proofs, and they sit in a nice Dansco album and I really like them. For most of these coins, even in MS-66, they would be worth less than the cost of grading. So collect what you like, but when you move from one series to another, the best thing you can do is learn as much as you can about the series before you buy a single coin. Learning mintages, specific varieties, and populations of grading coins can help you decide the best ground rules to set for your collecting. Taking standards from one series to another with no regard to the nature of the series is a mistake in my opinion.
Now, as it comes to classics and moderns, I've argued with many of the classic collectors before (I'm sure they're all sick of it) that for me, the decision of what to collect was largely based on the appearance of the coin. For me it goes like this - I admire the art and beauty of a full strike, full luster coin that truly represents the designer and engravers intention. All of us know what these look like. I'm sure the same thing that motivates a collector to collect low-pop moderns is the same thing that causes a classics collector to buy a key in low grade just because it is the only grade that exists. It's the sure knowledge that you have something unique that no one else can own. Some collectors are series focused and will build a collection containing keys in grades as low as F-12 if they have to, just to complete a series. They are a different kind of collector. After doing some real soul searching to understand my motivation to collect, I finally came to understand that for me, it was about the perfection of the coin. Now before you classic guys throw up your hands and give up on me, I'll add that this approach led me to dissappointment with almost every coin I owned. That dissappointment was heightened by the pop reports. I knew that almost every PQ coin I owned was not perfect, and in fact wasn't even the best graded example. That neurosis affects many of my friends here. That is what causes us to spend countless hours scouring the auction listings searching for an upgrade to our collections. Sometime, while doing this and without any conscious thought, I stumbled onto other coins that were beautiful, but weren't perfect. I discovered toning as an art form, and began finding myself drawn to coins from the early 1800's with light wear and some remaining luster. Is it possible for imperfect coins to be beautiful, absolutely. Then I found that many of these coins that I loved were VERY inexpensive. I found a dam-ned
1963 proof Jefferson that was toned black chrome with a light blue metallic Monticello. You might think it hideous, but it truly delighted me. I forgot my intolerance for imperfection when I started looking at draped bust halves. I started collecting coins based on their unique beauty. Not because they are perfect, but because they beautiful. I made a promise to myself to not collect anything that wasn't at least XF, and to buy coins from series that I had never collected before for reasonable prices. Coin collecting is brand-new for me again, and when I stop, I'll have a truly unique collection in which every coin I own I consider beautiful. (Maybe ecclectic, but pretty). Will my collection ever fill a whitman, probably not, but I am free of any restraint and can buy only what I like. That's my goal, to only buy what I like, and to learn as much as I can about every coin I buy. Sounds like fun doesn't it.
Here is a link to the auction I won today. I don't really care how the coin grades, or if it will cross to anything. I just liked it and wanted to own it. Who knows, I may build the series in XF+. This 165 year old half costs less than a PR69 1981 SBA T2. PS - I still love the Moderns too.
My newest coin
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Since I have never owned one I do not know, but I am sure it was much, much lower then.
Many have gone up a lot in value recently, but it's hard to judge the effect of the registry vs. whether they are just starting to come into their own, and what effect the overall strong coin market in general has on them.
My personal guess is the registry hasn't had a great deal of impact on Ikes, since gem grade (but not registry contender) coins have done well too. Of course in the very low-pop coins where you've got a few registry guys who all need them, that's a different story, but that's a small part of the Ike market because there just aren't very many around.
PR70s are also a tough one to know, because PCGS choked off the supply about the same time the registry started catching on. But, given the "quality" of some of the PR70s out there, and the prices they still fetch regardless of the coin, I would have to suspect the registry points are a major factor in the price.
<< <i>Coinrookie,
As for what constitutes a classic, there are many definitions, but personally, I view classics as any obsolete designs that no longer regularly circulate, from Large cents to Morgans, to Wheat cents, to Mercury Dimes, etc. (I am on the fence on Ikes, they are nice, but not quite classics yet). As far as the affordability factor, well that is your choice. MS-65 may be a good minimum on modern coins where getting an MS-70 is possible, but as a collector of double eagles, there are so many dates where none have been graded higher than MS-60 let alone MS-65! Even on my Franklin set, I only set my minimum at MS-63 (with great eye appeal), since they get really scarce on some dates higher than MS-65 FBL. But what you collect is entirely up to you. I collect a lot of circulated series, but I also like MS-65 Morgans (guess which one I have more of!) and sometimes I like uncs that aren't even slabbed. I have a complete set of BU Roosies, including all the proofs, and they sit in a nice Dansco album and I really like them. For most of these coins, even in MS-66, they would be worth less than the cost of grading. So collect what you like, but when you move from one series to another, the best thing you can do is learn as much as you can about the series before you buy a single coin. Learning mintages, specific varieties, and populations of grading coins can help you decide the best ground rules to set for your collecting. Taking standards from one series to another with no regard to the nature of the series is a mistake in my opinion.
Thanks for the input. You got me to thinking about some of what you said. I have seen older coins that at lower grades actually impressed me more than other coins at a higher grade. Also I like your definition of a classic coin. DHeath`s comment`s also made me re-think certain pre-concieved ideas. Just want to say that this board is a great success in that it presents a number of views that may open up some aspects of collecting that a person never fully explored. Thanks guys.
Around 98 & 99 coin rags were writing that Choice Gem Modern Clad was not saved in great quanities and some of it was tough to locate, especially the 1960's and some 1970's models and savy dealers & collectors started to collect it and of course these savy dealers were slabbing it and selling it on Teletrade. They thought it was pretty cool that they could slab a 25¢ quarter or a 10¢ dime for $15 and sell it for $25 thus making about $10 profit per coin that they had been making 50¢ profit on selling to collectors to put in their Whitmans & Danscos. My coins were soon out poped but I could always pick one up on Teletrade sooner or later but the more that were put on the market the more collectors became aware of and interested in them & wanted them and the price gradually inched up as these higher pops became available.
Then around 2001 the Set Registry took off and the rest is history.
In 1998 I upgraded my self made MS66 JFKs with MS67s from Teletrade. Both the P & D cost me $33 each. MS67 was still the highest grade made until last year and was selling for around $75-$100 then some MS68s were made. These sold for $800 or something like that. I said screw that I aint spending that kind of money on them. I never paid more than $50-$90 for a Proof 70 Dcam in 1998. Several hundred dollars now days. My MS69 JR $5 Gold Commem cost me $300, it's $1,200 now. 1 oz Plat Eagles went from $700 to over $1,000.
Yeah, I lost a little "value" in some coins when they were outranked in pop but I wasn't "investing" or paying crazy prices in those days, I was just having fun working a set from the year my kid was born in. I was doing Registry Set coins before the Set Registry was even invented and didn't even know it. I used some of them in a Modern Type Set last year in the Registry but soon grew tired of the rat race and got back to my Classics.
I like Ikes! Actually, I think Ikes and Franklins are two of the most underappreciated series of the 20th century (then there's Rossies of course). I completed my slabbed Franklin set, and have been working on my Ike set. It's been slow, but enjoyable. So many varieties for only 8 years. I've approached it a little differently, in that I bought raw coins that I liked, and had them slabbed, mainly for preservation. Whatever grade it was didn't matter to me, since I liked the coins themselves. Some came back as low as MS-63 or MS-64, but I got some relative pleasant surprises, like my 72-D that came back MS-65, my 77 that got a 66, and my 77-S that came back PR-69 DCAM. Those used to be great grades for those dates, but they are probably mediocre by now. But since I have no plans to sell them, they are fine for me.
PS-Dheath, I like that bust half!
When it started recovering there was a new tone to the market. Some of the first things
to recover were mint and proof sets and other moderns. This new market grew very slow-
ly. While the classics quickly recovered their old highs, moderns required much more time
to regain their highs from years earlier. Early in 2000 there was a ground swell of new de-
mand for moderns. This was typically attributed to newbies but in fact was largely due to
old time collectors trying to get in on a hot market. At the same time the early states quar-
ters were beginning to increase in value which lent great encouragement to many newbies.
There was a significant new movement of fresh blood into moderns during 2000. A significant
number of the new collectors are probably already lost or on the verge of being lost. This
doesn't include the significant minority which has already branched into other coins, just the
people who only collect states issues from circulation. Many have had less than pleasant ex-
periences or lack of help or encouragement. Some have merely lost interest. There are still
large numbers of people collecting the states coins and these may soon be augmented by
collectors for a new nickel. These people will flow into the hobby for several years yet. The
rate of flow is dependent on many factors and we have little control over many of them. But
how we treat them and their collections are vitally important and largely under our control.
None of this is occurring in a vacuum. There are other trends that are independent of the new
collectors enterring by way of the stats coins. Moderns have probably been in true growth
since as early as 1985. It wasn't apparent because the number of coins coming on the market
dwarfed both the growing and pre-existing demand. This caused wholesale prices to drop to
as low as double face on many proof sets. It was around '85 that Ikes first started bringing
premiums in high grade.
So how do we get newbies into classics? Simple, it's mostly just waiting and encouraging them
as possible. Don't be in a hurry, they have a great deal to learn and their interest still has to
build. It will come naturally to most of them given sufficient time. But, of course, many will drop
out entirely as time goes by. It is in everyone's interest to retain as many of these new collectors
as possible at every stage of their developement.
Probably most of the growth in classics to date is from speculation and from demand from re-
turning collectors. Some newbies will very soon be branching into classics. This will be a grad-
ual increase in demand since most will not have large disposable incomes to put into collecting.
But this increase in demand will be relentless as more and more people spend more and more
on classics. The modern market will be a predicter of many things if you know how to read it.
-How do we get the new collector into Classics? By not discouraging them in what they are collecting now. I've found that a happy collector, even it is just a guy with his two kids putting together a choice Unc set of Memorial Lincolns will move into other, more agressive series later on. That is, if he isn't called or made to feel like a Moron for enjoying his first "baby steps" into Numismatics now.
morris <><
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I agree with you wholeheartedly on the encourgement of new collectors while not calling them names, belittling, etc. Certainly, I have always held the view that paying thousands for modern condition rarities is nuts, but as long as it's not my money, that's fine. Most of my friends think I'm nuts for paying more than face value for my coins (these are non-collectors). One thing that I think we often miss when talking about slabbed coins is the good that comes out of them for new collectors. Even though many newbies may be discouraged and leave the hobby in disgust as the prices of their coins falls, I think that is much less damaging than people leaving because they have been defrauded. I started collecting coins before most of the services started, so I can tell you how often disreputable dealers ripped people off with cleaned, whizzed and otherwise crappy coins that they passed off as the rarest hoard of BU coins. As a new collector, I was the victim several times, and eventually stopped collecting for a few years. If I could have at least had some assurance that the coins I was buying were at least genuine and not altered, that would have gone a long way. Today, new collectors may be ripped off by condition rarities that turn out not to be so rare, but I can't imagine that being as bad an experience as having your unc coin turning into just a hunk of metal worth scrap value! For that reason alone, I think the services add a lot of value, even if we disagree with the grade by a point or two.
escalates sharply in price than it must be over valued. Anyone who's been in the hobby
and paying attention for many years could easily come to this conclusion. The hobby was
in many ways stuck in 1964. Coins had been growing explosively up to that point and the
number of collectors just went up every year. Many people were setting the new coins
aside every year in quantities to service a never ending increase in collecting. Many others
were speculating that there was lots of money to be made in this endeavor, so bought up
all they could find of the "older" coins from the late 50's. There were numerous books on
the subject. One of the best was Hayling's "The Profit March of Your Coin Investment" He
essentially predicted that BU rolls would continue a 20% annual increase into the forseeable
future. Unsurprisingly this market crashed. The switch to clads and the numerous steps
taken by the mint and by government to discourage collecting were probably the trigger.
This market had been a bubble and was ripe for a fall anyway, but it left a sour taste in
many peoples mouth which they associated with clad.
From 1964 to 2000 there was a fairly steady decrease in the number of US coin collectors.
The average age and disposable income of collectors increased a great deal during these
years. But tastes changed and collectors aims evolved so one series of coins after another
would get hot and then come tumbling down after collectors moved on to something else.
Things truly are different now. The number of new collectors is again increasing. These col-
lectors will push up the demand for whatever they buy because there are a relatively large
number of them making relatively limited purchases. If they branch out into all the moderns
there will be many coins in very limited supply. Many new collectors will not be able to own
uncs. Not because they're too expensive but because there simply aren't enough to go a-
round. This is beginning to show up pretty dramatically in moderns with very low survival rates.
Try purchasing an 83-P quarter. Many list it for sale, but don't actually have it in stock. MS-60's
are going for $25 now. Except for a handful of AU's and XF's that people pulled out of circula-
tion back in '85-'90 there isn't much for peoples collections other than the F's in circ. Does this
mean that I believe no moderns are overpriced or that the modern market is immune to suffer-
ing the fate of a bubble. Hardly, I'm merely saying that demand should continue to increase
for these coins for many years. That rather that these increases to date being a growing bub-
ble they are more of a base for coins that haven't been much studied or collected previously.
Does this mean I don't think any of the moderns are overpriced yet. Hardly, there are probably
many moderns which will be lower at some point in the future. I just wish I knew which.
I did get back several fine new modern varieties to replace it. I have a "ray'd sweat drop reverse" (beautiful black rays centered around a still clear fluid drop). It has at least 10 rays radiating from the central drop point. I've also got a "heavy sneeze obverse" (~20 very dark spots starting to form, left of Lincoln's head and on the cameo profile surfaces).
perfectstrike
I don't see why this is a clad vs classic issue. As Clad has been trying to say, prices increase for a number of reasons. One reason I'd like to highlight is speculation (or hype or marketing) due to available quantity. I've said that I've essentially stopped buying Early Dollars because a few dealers from out west have been driving the prices up. You don't get much more ``classic'' than that series. (BTW, in absolute numbers, there's actually plenty of ESD's. Original specimens, however, are truly rare.)
Morgan Dollars is another so-called classical series that's been hyped up many times. Yes, there are true rarities. But, the common dates in low UNC and circ get hyped in many mass marketing channels. Same with later-date IH's...
Changing gears now...
Why would I want to encourage all those newbies to get into classics? Let's say I'm a selfish collector. Getting the newbies into the classics only increase the competition for me. How is that a good thing? I want prices as low as possible; I don't care about selling. Many years from now, people will have to disinter me and pry my coins from my lifeless boney fingers.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I don't buy your argument. I think that the mintage should be looked at on an absolute as well as a relative basis. By your argument, the 1992-P dime should be worth a ton since they only minted 593.5 million, compared with the 1.3 billion in 90, 927.2 million in 91, 766.2 million in 93, 1.2 billion in 94, 1.1 billion in 95, 1.4 billion in 96, 991.6 million in 97, 1.2 billion in 98, and 2.2 billion in 99. It has the lowest mintage of all the P-mint dimes of the 1990s, so it's a real sleeper. But it's really just crap, as there are enough for every man, woman and child in the country to have 2 of them! But a low-mintage commem like the half eagles mentioned, there is enough so that only one person in 12,500 in the country can have one. Now granted, that's a red herring since only a tiny percentage of Americans actually collect coins, much less modern commems. If your argument held, then all of these sub-30,000 mintage half eagles would be worth a lot more, yet they sell at about the same price as the ones issued in the 1980s, even though their mintages ranged from 100,000 to 500,000! Look at the unc. NCS dollar, selling for about $180, yet the mintage is twice the unc mintage of some of these half eagles, but they can readily be had for around $120, and did I mention they are made of GOLD? I think it ultimately comes down to the number of collectors of these coins, and that is caused primarily by the fact that these coins cannot be acquired in the general conduct of commerce. Everyone and their brother collects state quarters, why? Because you can get them at lunch from McDonalds! You have to go to a coin shop looking for them, and often even your local coin shop only has a limited quantity. Remember when you could buy commems like the Statue of Liberty coins at your local banks? Whatever happened to that program? That's why the gold coins in that sold out in record time, and had huge premiums in the months afterwards, and why the mint was able to sell so many more of the issue. Ok, I'm done with my rant for now.
The modern prices appear to stay highly inflated through pop 10 and more, compared to just two years ago. At the same time, I'm more frequently expecting to pay several times greysheet for classic issues I'm searching for. This wasn't tue two years ago.
Part of the increase is due to the number of new collectors. More of these new collectors also seem to be interested in putting together high-grade sets, as a first step. Most of the items in completed my sets, except for a large chunk of PR69DCAM proofs, got there via upgrades. I wonder how many collectors take the older approach, first a circulated set, then a BU raw set, then a certified set on a budget, then upgrades?
perfectstrike
I have 9 #1 sets in the Modern Commemorative Proofs (with Specialty sets that are just combinations of the main sets).
What I like about them is that they are all different as opposed to collection dates of the same coin. Does at 1915 look any different than a 1916, other than the date?
The next set I'm working on is a 20th Century Gold Major designs. I'll never have a #1 spot there, but I like that as a collection.
In my opinion design variety is more interesting than date variety.
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since 8/1/6
I agree. The new collectors (not the folks stuffing SQ's into whitmans) are interested in building high-grade sets. One of the reasons they've been drawn to moderns is the desire to compete on a limited coin budget. I think that's part of the marketing genius of the set registry. It has helped create a competetion for the finest examples of every date and MM. It also has driven demand for quality. A collector with less than a $10,000 coin budget can get involved in the hobby, and build a very high quality set of moderns in many series. In addition to being drawn into the hobby, they gradually learn to grade, develop peers and advisors, build relationships with dealers, and learn coin parlance and pricing. Somewhere along the line, they also mature as collectors and begin to purchase other series, many times classics. I have more than a few friends on these boards who've done just that. Is that bad for the hobby? I don't know. I know the price of tuition to get the education one would get doing the above would probably be more than $10,000, and they still have the coins to show for their experience. Frankly, moderns are a good place for newbies to start. They can learn there without suffering hobby ending losses, and perfect their skills, while becoming valuable additions to the fraternity. The real threat as I perceive it are the collectors who constantly rage against the new modern collectors and point out their folly, dismissing their efforts as somehow unimportant. Can one lose their fanny collecting moderns - sure. Is it easier to lose it collecting expensive classics in competetion with experts. You bet. You know, every time I win a coin auction, I remind myself that I just outbid 1000 experts that saw the same auction. Moderns to classics are a natural progression, without interference that is. IMHO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Moderns to classics are a natural progression, without interference that is. IMHO >>
That is how I did it. Started with Lincolns, then Jeffersons, Roosevelts, Washington's and Kennedies. Now I just add the new year to them when the mint sets come out and concentrate on other things.
Well, I could, I did, it was (and is). And now I am putting together a set of proof Shield Nickels for my next registry set -- as classic as they come for five-cent nickel pieces.
We all have our likes and dislikes. We all have our opinions on what is overpriced and underpriced. But if you are interested in the history of coins, and collect from that perspective, all issues have a necessary and relatively equal part to play. If your goal is to put together a reference set of the "best" of something -- focusing on a denomination, a metal, whatever -- you've got to start somewhere, and the "accesible" is as good as any a place to start.
But this debate has been going on for some time, and I have my reservations about whether, despite disclaimers, this thread is not intended to bash modern collectors. The issue seems to be like a scab that some folks like to keep picking at.
I'll leave on that appetizing note.
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
But this thread was whether the registry had an impact on the prices of moderns, but despite the coincidence it seems those in the know say it did not.
Whoops! I think I just posted a "pro" Classic statement.
Is there time to edit?!
You don't HAVE to buy high-grade slabbed moderns first, but if you want to play the registry "game," it's as good as any place else to start. I suppose someone could start putting together a low-grade slabbed set of indian cents and end up somewhere deep in the bowels of the set listings, but that's no fun (to me, anyway).
If people "in the know" are denying any price impact, I guess I will be the contrarian and say that the registry has increased the cost of top-grades for all material, modern or classic, by publicizing information about the relative availability of the material, providing a forum in which sets can be compared, and in expanding the pool of collectors intrigued by the concept of having the best and willing to pay for bragging rights. Decades ago, I don't think it was as prominent in the collector mentality (except for an Eliasberg or Bass) for one to be able to say that he or she had the NICEST coin -- an excellent uncirculated example was completely sufficient.
However, there are pockets of value even against this background. IMHO, brilliant modern proofs are undervalued, even at top grades, especially when compared with cameo and deep cameo coinage. Non-FS, non-FH and non-FB issues, in top grades, are also undervalued, I believe. These are areas in which I think the risks to collectors are more moderated, because these coins are directly "penalized" (or not rewarded) by the registry, even if they are otherwise the "finest known." The registry's decision to award bonuses for these coins somewhat props up their value. The premiums paid for full-step Jeffersons, in particular, is something that I view as having a tighter connection to the prevalence of the registry Not that there's anything wrong with that. Full band Mercs and full head SLQs are more established, but the point premiums there probably have contributed to a greater price disparity based on the designation.
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
I'm not sure many new collectors posess the skills to sucessfully buy classic coins in any grade and not get their clock cleaned. Were I a new collector today on a limited budget, where in the classics would I start? Assume for a moment that I have no knowledge of classic coins, and no advisors. Also assume that I haven't found this forum. Would I likely begin collecting something readily accessible and inexpensive? How about say SQ's. They look like fun, and they don't cost much. Tell me how you think they'll get started with classics?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I am not sure the registry has a positive effect on coin collecting either. Read Gregg Bingham's comments about that.
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
They will start with moderns. Just like I did. But I don't have any high priced moderns, and cannot see why you need to go to certified high grade moderns to branch to classics. Many that go this route will have their clocks cleaned too.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I am not sure what you say is entirely true. I find that the level of "scams" in moderns is at least as high if not higher than in classics. Sure, if a new collector starts out with flowing hair dollars, they are liable to be taken advantage of, but what about buffalo nickels? If they are collecting a circulated set and buy a coin for XF money and it really grades VF, they may lose some, but are they likely to lose as much as the poor sap that buys an SQ in an MS-70 slab from ACG only to find that it might only be a 66 in any other slab? The risk involved depends on the coins they want to collect. A perfect example is the sets of 2-Cent and 3-Cent nickels I just started. Well I am learning a lot, and I am generally buying in the F to XF ranges for common dates. I have been spending between $10 and $30 a piece, and even if I buy one that's counterfeit, my potential loss is not that great. Some of the prices of these moderns leave much more "clock cleaning" potential for coins where the average collector can't tell the difference between an MS-67 and an MS-68. At least I can't.
I'm sorry for the followup before you answered, but I just wanted to use an example from my own experience. I have wanted a 1971 PR69 Dcam Kennedy for the longest time. I've been looking for the coin for over two years, and have only gotten as close as a PR69 cam. I haven't purchased one slabbed 1971. I still (foolishly) believe that I'll find one in a proof set lot. I have looked at a lot of 1971 proof sets, but for the $2000 expected price to buy the coin, I can look at 400 sets assuming I don't resell any of them. The hunt is alot of fun, and if I ever make one, I'll post it here. The neat thing about starting with moderns is that I can still buy 400 ungraded 1971 proof sets. Playing in the registry with moderns doesn't necessarily mean just buying pop-tops. That's the lure for me. Jtryka, I understand your point concerning pop-tops (although ACG 70's won't be included in a PCGS registry set), but I guess what you're saying is that newbies are going to jump into the hobby and buy pop-top PCGS coins in order to compete. If they were high bidder on the pop-top classics wouldn't that also represent some risk? I just don't think that's where they play.
Edited to add - Jtryka, I like your choices of reasonable coins for beginners, and I particularly like the coins you've choosen to collect. They look like fun.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Thanks, I like to collect what I like to collect (what am I Yogi Berra here?). Anyway, I think the hidden assuption in much of this debate is that all newbies are going after top pop moderns which I think is untrue. Some certainly are, and they may be disappointed some day, but it's a lesson for them to learn, as we all have in the past. Would they go for top classics, not unless Bill Gates is one of the newbies, since the air gets really thin up there. I would just hope that the furor over SQs and Sacs would transate into more collectors learning more about the hobby from periodicals, books in their local library, visits to local coin shops and even new coin clubs. Then they would see how much there is to interest you in this hobby, and how a lot of times the cost isn't too prohibitive.
in circulating coinage. Production figures for coin folders are closely held trade
secrets, but you can actually see these selling in coin shops and book stores.
More telling, perhaps, is the higher rate at which nice clads are disappearing from
circulation. For many years the attrition rates on low mintage coins in circulation
was identical to the attrition rates on the most common ones. If collectors had been
saving the better ones or even one coin of each date then the scarcer coins would
disappear disproportionately. This did not occur until 2000!
Apparently they are getting a start in coin collecting this way and it's a wonderful
way to start. They are not going to get burned, and will have a lot of knowledge
before they even get into the shops and shows.
<< <i> I think searching out raw high-grade moderns is the answer, and using the services to learn grading. >>
I guess I did it the wrong way. I collected modern stuff from circulation, determined what I had an interest in and started to collect it in circulated grades. As time went on I moved to MS grades and am now collecting the "already known by everyone" varieties and errors. I am sure I should have spent hundreds, if not thousands, on certified modern stuff that meant absolutely nothing to me to do it the right way, but I chose my way. Of course I was guided by my dealer, who works all of the national shows and lets me in on every detail of the "game", and searches for coins for me that are properly graded (oh yeah, he graded for PCGS).
I still see no reason in the world to buy a certified high grade modern coin if that is not something you intend on collecting. How it would help anyone in their collecting other than to take money away and give it to a dealer in this crap I do not know.
Collecting is not about getting the perfect grade. If I had a circulated chain cent in my collection ( I do not, one of 5 large cents missing) It would mean more than any MS69 modern piece of s**t ever could. This is a wonderful coin that has a full history to it. I still regret not seeing the AG example my dealer had (with full date) that I could have had for a little over $500. What anyone sees in a $1,000+ coin that is only a few years old I will never know. There is nothing about collecting in that coin, where a chain cent has everything. I know some people feel they need to have an uncirculated coin or noting, and I will take nothing from them but that has nothing to do with coin collecting in my book. (there is just as much (probably more) history in a circulated clad coin that can be picked from change than in a high dollar certified example of the same coin. Maybe I think of coin collecting a little different than the high grade modern collectors)
But this thread is about the major rise in prices for high grade (certified by PCGS only) modern coins since the registry started for them.
what they please whether you think it's shlT or not. What compells you to
share your "views" with everyone all the time? Do you have nothing better
to do than run down others? Do you enjoy making fun of what others collect
and then saying you collect it too?