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1884 Hawaiian Coins - Fake, fantasy, unsung rarity or what?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,415 ✭✭✭✭✭
The coins we're all familiar with are dated 1883.
The 1884 half below is 20% too heavy. The quarter is struck on a cut down Columbian Half Dollar planchet, so we know it wasn't struck in 1884. Even though the planchets are all wrong, the dies are extraordinarily well-executed.
Breen notes that the 1883 dies were destroyed "after June 1884" and that the original hubs remain at the Philly Mint.
My best guess is that the coins were made for some purpose at the Columbian Expo, using the original hubs, but it's a wild guess. Does anybody here know any more, or have a better hypothesis?
The 1884 half below is 20% too heavy. The quarter is struck on a cut down Columbian Half Dollar planchet, so we know it wasn't struck in 1884. Even though the planchets are all wrong, the dies are extraordinarily well-executed.
Breen notes that the 1883 dies were destroyed "after June 1884" and that the original hubs remain at the Philly Mint.
My best guess is that the coins were made for some purpose at the Columbian Expo, using the original hubs, but it's a wild guess. Does anybody here know any more, or have a better hypothesis?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
bob
Hawaiian parking meters only accepted heavier coins?
TRUTH
<< <i>
Breen notes that the 1883 dies were destroyed "after June 1884" and that the original hubs remain at the Philly Mint.
>>
Just because Breen Notes does not mean that is the way it went down. Breen was famous for filling in the gaps of facts with what made sense to him
While it's true that Breen is not 100% reliable, this doesn't sound like the type of thing that he would have made up. Now, what do you think about the coins?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Just because Breen Notes does not mean that is the way it went down. Breen was famous for filling in the gaps of facts with what made sense to him
While it's true that Breen is not 100% reliable, this doesn't sound like the type of thing that he would have made up. Now, what do you think about the coins? >>
Coins are amazing and interesting to boot. My guess is they are clandestine in nature as I am pretty sure sanctioned products would use blank planchets instead of normal coins. A lot of the crook made mint products are on already struck coins like the 1859 o dollar that shows through on the 1838. My guess is that the blanks were more controlled then old dies/hubs.
I had never seen the 1884 Hawaiians before. Thanks for posting this, Andy! I learned something today!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Ooooh's, Aaaahs and kudos.
Can't imagine a good argument for anything but fantasy.
So the debate will begin.
Stir the pot, Andy
I agree. But there are fantasies and there are "fantasies".
BTW, in the interest of fair disclosure, I do own one of these quarters, I'm proud of it, and it's not for sale.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Can't imagine a good argument for anything but fantasy.
I agree. But there are fantasies and there are "fantasies".
BTW, in the interest of fair disclosure, I do own one of these quarters, I'm proud of it, and it's not for sale. >>
Help us refine our paradigm. Would a Mickley fantasy be a discrete classification from a Samuel Y. Brown or DuBois/Lindeman fantasy?
A thought.... Would JD be useful in terms of identifying a date logotype?
And can we talk about that 1939 Buffalo 5c whose existence you have very vaguely alluded to? I have never been able to understand your explanation about the 1944 underdate and reconcile it with its purported lack of silver content. Or would you rather wait until after resolution of the Langbord suit?
If it were up to me, there would be three basic categories. Fantasies made in the Mint, fantasies made outside of the Mint from Mint dies and/or hubs, and fantasies made from privately produced (but not counterfeit) dies. Of course there will be coins that don't fit neatly into any of those three categories, including the 1884 Hawaiian coins. Whether further categories need to be created, or we should just live with an imperfect system, is up to the grading gods.
A thought.... Would JD be useful in terms of identifying a date logotype?
Possibly.
And can we talk about that 1939 Buffalo 5c whose existence you have very vaguely alluded to? I have never been able to understand your explanation about the 1944 underdate and reconcile it with its purported lack of silver content. Or would you rather wait until after resolution of the Langbord suit?
I think we should wait.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Can't imagine a good argument for anything but fantasy.
I agree. But there are fantasies and there are "fantasies".
BTW, in the interest of fair disclosure, I do own one of these quarters, I'm proud of it, and it's not for sale. >>
I would guess it's a fanatasy piece produced at the mint by someone with too much time on their hands.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
TD
Are you SURE they aren't for sale??
TD:
What's odd about the "4"?
Good observation, I think.
What's odd about the "4"?
Nothing, except that it may be different than the 4's we see on coins of 1884 and 1894. Will have to search out some pix...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Noted the two different date spacings- the top one almost looks like it could be an overdate-is there any trace of a 3 that you can see in hand?
Does anyone know if there was a Hawaiian exhibit at the WCE in Chicago in 1892/93? That would explain a lot. I'm in agreement with Andy's sentiment that these were perhaps struck as souvenir or presentation pieces using the 1884 date to differentiate them from the "legit" 1883 issues. A WAG to be sure, but plausible imo. Perhaps a WCE specialist could shed light on this; I must admit that even though I'm in central IL I am not that well versed in WCE memorabilia/items other than the obvious mainstream numismatic issues and medals/ so called dollars.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity"
Are you SURE they aren't for sale??
TD:
What's odd about the "4"? >>
Look at the upper picture. The 4 appears to be bolder than the 188, and not properly positioned relative to them.
TD
I suppose there could have been an old unfinished die with only the "188" brought out of retirement for these coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
according to this guys article
Platinum: Rare metal rarely used in US Coinage
1894dimelink
<< <i>I think they may be PLATINUM
according to this guys article
Platinum: Rare metal rarely used in US Coinage >>
I wouldn't think a Platinum expo half was struck, cut down and then struck. I am all but sure these would be silver using nothing more then logic though. Others may be, good quick article thanks
TD
<< <i>I think they may be PLATINUM
according to this guys article
Platinum: Rare metal rarely used in US Coinage >>
Why would you think this is anything other than .900 silver?
<< <i>
<< <i>I think they may be PLATINUM
according to this guys article
Platinum: Rare metal rarely used in US Coinage >>
Why would you think this is anything other than .900 silver? >>
Agree. It was struck on a cut down Columbian half dollar after all.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
there may have been some obscure law forbidding off-metal strikings of US coins meant for US circulation at that time
and it would have been alloy rather than pattern
so why would someone take a struck coin (half dollar), round off the edges, and restrike it again as a quarter?
why didn't they just take a quarter -
my theory seems as good as yours
TD
Can someone tell me how to ID a counterfeit Hawaiian dollar? I bought one on auction, but now PCGS says it is counterfeit.