Anyone Ever Have THIS Happen to Them?
Cratylus
Posts: 871 ✭
Signed for a package this morning at the local PO. It was a nice midgrade Barber half I've been waiting for almost two weeks to receive. Was driving to work and at the first red light I opened the package... to find a packing slip with a business card stapled to it AND NO COIN! I contacted the seller of the coin (who will remain nameless at this point) who, of course, insisted that the coin was in the envelope when he sent it. So most likely I'm going to get screwed here since it was an Ebay auction win paid thru PayPal and now the post office shows that the package was delivered... so it's going to turn into one of those "my word against his" kind of things where I end up taking the loss. My only hope is that the seller made an honest mistake and forgot to put the coin in the envelope and he finds the coin later and owns up to his mistake. Because if this is a case of (a) post office theft and repackaging, or (b) seller dishonesty, I think I'm screwed.
Any advice or similar stories to help ease my frustration?
Any advice or similar stories to help ease my frustration?
0
Comments
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>Was the postage weight shown? >>
He mailed it using Pitney Bowes and printing his own mailing label. The weight shows as 0.1 ozs.
<< <i>
<< <i>Was the postage weight shown? >>
He mailed it using Pitney Bowes and printing his own mailing label. The weight shows as 0.1 ozs. >>
Must have been pretty worn to weight that little.....I think the weight will help you.
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To explain a little better, he had inherited perhaps 300 coins and didn't want to keep them. I helped him via PM for a few months to determine those 8-10 coins that were worth grading and then many months later he asked if I would sell them for him. My first surprise came when the package arrived and it contained not only the few expensive coins I thought he wanted to sell, but also contained myriad loose coins in bags, 2x2 holders and rolls. His detailed inventory sheet was slightly messed up because he numbered each coin prior to packaging them and then decided to keep a few of the coins for various reasons, but did not re-number all the coins correctly. Therefore, it was a little tricky to determine in some cases if a coin with a certain number on it was actually supposed to be another coin since many of the coins were mid-grade, circulated Morgan dollars of similar dates. I got him very good money for his coins, found one coin in his junk silver pile that was actually a much better date and worth many hundreds more than he realized and worked quite hard to not only sell his coins, but also to find the one piece (worth about $20) that he claimed was in the package and I had never seen. Regardless, he ended up getting 100% of the proceeds from the sales, but I always got the impression that he believed I was holding out on him with this single coin. It made me feel quite badly about the snafu. It is the only coin transaction I have ever had where I thought one party might not have been fully satisfied.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Was the postage weight shown? >>
He mailed it using Pitney Bowes and printing his own mailing label. The weight shows as 0.1 ozs. >>
Must have been pretty worn to weight that little.....I think the weight will help you. >>
Yeah, I was discussing my dilemma with a co-worker and he said the same thing. And now that I've thought about it, you two might be right. I can't imagine a VF Barber half inside a 2x2 inside a corrugated cardboard protector inside a 6x9 envelope would weigh only 0.1 ozs. Anyone have a jeweler's scale at home who can test it to see what this should actually weigh?
<< <i>.1 oz in no way could include the coin. File the PP claim along with a copy of that Pitney postage label. You'll prevail. >>
Agreed, coin alone should weigh around 0.4 ounces.
I know perfectly well there was no coin in the envelope yet i still could do nothing about it.Color me paranoid but now when i open anything of value from ebay i have the missus record it to video.If everything is fine it's easy to delete.If it's not i at least have a leg to stand on.
Mine wasn't in a bubble mailer either , one tip to look for is the edges , the franking machine can push a coin to bust out an edge and its hardly visable.Ive had that happen too but at least i knew what happened there.
<< <i>.1 oz in no way could include the coin. File the PP claim along with a copy of that Pitney postage label. You'll prevail. >>
I certainly hope you are correct.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
They all have told me when I request this that they will but it doesnt really mean anything. My reply is that it will matter if I didnt get what I am expecting and they are issued a subpoena to testify. They then see that I am serious about what I am asking them to do.
<< <i>What you received (nothing) is significantly not as described. File a complaint with Paypal. For all the criticism of Paypal on this board, here's a circumstance where Paypal should come to the rescue. >>
Should, but very likely may not. When they see the Delivery Confirmed, they pretty much always side with the seller.
<< <i>
<< <i>What you received (nothing) is significantly not as described. File a complaint with Paypal. For all the criticism of Paypal on this board, here's a circumstance where Paypal should come to the rescue. >>
Should, but very likely may not. When they see the Delivery Confirmed, they pretty much always side with the seller. >>
Yep, that's what I'm afraid of. And now that I look again at the package the label says shipping weight of 0 lbs 1 ozs.... NOT 0.1 ozs. God, I am so screwed!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What you received (nothing) is significantly not as described. File a complaint with Paypal. For all the criticism of Paypal on this board, here's a circumstance where Paypal should come to the rescue. >>
Should, but very likely may not. When they see the Delivery Confirmed, they pretty much always side with the seller. >>
Yep, that's what I'm afraid of. And now that I look again at the package the label says shipping weight of 0 lbs 1 ozs.... NOT 0.1 ozs. God, I am so screwed!
Not necessarily. Like was said above, file a claim stating that it was an empty envelope. See what happens. I'm assuming you've made a TON of purchases on PayPal, and a lot of probably higher value than this coin. State in your PayPal claim that you've never had this happen before, etc. etc. (I'm not 100% sure this is a good idea - wait for others to chime in, but it is what I would do).
And if worse comes to worse, you can always do a charge back on your credit card.
Good luck, Cary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
(It wasn't described as a coin under 0.1 ounces).
A few months ago I bought some silver dollars and junk silver plus 4 rolls of war nickels from the BS&T. When I opened the package only the 4 rolls of
nickels were inside. Apparently someone at the P.O. stole the silver coins and resealed the package with a different color tape. The seller refunded
me the difference and he recovered that amount from the postal insurance, much to our surprise. It seems there are much more instances of
postal theft these days. Hope they crack down on these scumbags.
The only time I had something similar happen, the person shipping the coin (for attribution, not a purchase) had shipped in a self-adhering #10 letter size envelope, which must have opened along the way and someone simply resealed it.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>.1 oz in no way could include the coin. File the PP claim along with a copy of that Pitney postage label. You'll prevail. >>
I agree; A barber half, without any packaging would weigh a lot more than .1oz. Hopefully, the seller will find the coin, in its flip, and the corregated packaging. Sounds like he just forgot to place it in the envelope. If the seller is deliberately trying to cheat you, you may have a fight on your hands. Did you pay with a credit card thru paypal?
<< <i>
<< <i>What you received (nothing) is significantly not as described. File a complaint with Paypal. For all the criticism of Paypal on this board, here's a circumstance where Paypal should come to the rescue. >>
Should, but very likely may not. When they see the Delivery Confirmed, they pretty much always side with the seller. >>
but he obviously did not get the coin described , and I would believe that falls under P.P perimeters for getting his money back ; if not - that's a big loophole for scam artists
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
i did have a similiar envelope get wet, from the USPS leaving it in the openned mail box(top load style), which allowed the coin to fall out. the coin sat for two days in the bushes below the mail box before i found it. it wasnt hurt.
it was quite apparent that something substanstial was inside it.
OK, the seller is refusing to call me even though I've respectfully asked him to several times now. He only communicates via email, and he just keeps repeating the mantra that "the coin was in the envelope when I shipped it". So it's time I "out" him. His Ebay handle is las_vegas_coins. Since he's being obstinate I decided to do a little investigation on this guy's Ebay auctions. I found several interesting things. Here's a link so you can follow along with me:
Ebay Link
In some of the things I'm going to point out, you'll have to scroll through his received feedback comments to see what I'm talking about. Sometimes you'll need to click on links to the auction lots referenced in each feedback comment.
(1) He has run a LOT of One-day auctions; this is a sure fire sign of a scam artist trying to make a quick sale before a knowledgeable collector outs him to Ebay.
(2) He has had a number of coins returned to him because of removed mintmarks (check some of the "positive" feedback comments and you'll notice that several buyers have complained about this. In at least one case, the seller put the same coin back up for auction even after having been told the coin had been altered.
(3) KEY POINT HERE: Most of his coin auctions have been for key date Philly minted coins that sell for big dollars (1894 Morgan, 1899 Morgan, 1914 Barber Half, 1915 Barber Half) but that also have "O" or "S" mint counterparts that can be purchased on the cheap (1894-S, 1899-O, 1914-S, 1915-S).
(4) Many of his past auctions have had clear obverse photos but fuzzy reverse photos, as if he is intentionally trying to hide the fact that the mintmark has been removed.
While I can't be certain of it, I have a very strong suspicion that this guy is a complete scammer, and perhaps even doing the coin altering himself. He is, after all, even auctioning off pro-grade diamond nail files (which could easily be used to file down mint marks). The guy definitely found out that I was somewhat of an expert on midgrade Barber material before he shipped out the package to me; we exchanged a few emails where he asked me about my Ebay handle and I gave him my thoughts on a few Barbers he owned that he had wquestions on. So I have a feeling that this guy recognized I would know immediately that I had won an altered coin and that I would return it, so instead he decided to ship me an empty package. What sucks is I can't prove it, but you have to admit that a lot of what I'm saying makes sense.
Another sad thing is that if you scroll down his feedback it appears that somebody with "ricko" in their Ebay handle got taken several times by this guy and doesn't even know it. Is that "our" ricko?
And now the $64,000 Question: Do I go to Ebay with all of this? Should a bunch of forum members contact Ebay about this guy?
In my situation, the seller did not protest very much, and I'm pretty sure that he deliberately didn't sent the coin. My winning bid on ebay was a couple hundred under market value, and I think he decided to send an empty box and then blame the post office instead of just refusing to sell me the coin.
Conversely, this sort of situation is a nightmare for a legitimate seller... you send the goods, and then the buyer can file an empty box claim. Paypal almost always sides with the buyer. One of the reasons I haven't sold on ebay in awhile.
<< <i>UPDATE - VERY Interesting Stuff OK, the seller is refusing to call me even though I've respectfully asked him to several times now. He only communicates via email, and he just keeps repeating the mantra that "the coin was in the envelope when I shipped it". So it's time I "out" him. His Ebay handle is las_vegas_coins. Since he's being obstinate I decided to do a little investigation on this guy's Ebay auctions. I found several interesting things. Here's a link so you can follow along with me: Ebay Link In some of the things I'm going to point out, you'll have to scroll through his received feedback comments to see what I'm talking about. Sometimes you'll need to click on links to the auction lots referenced in each feedback comment. (1) He has run a LOT of One-day auctions; this is a sure fire sign of a scam artist trying to make a quick sale before a knowledgeable collector outs him to Ebay. (2) He has had a number of coins returned to him because of removed mintmarks (check some of the "positive" feedback comments and you'll notice that several buyers have complained about this. In at least one case, the seller put the same coin back up for auction even after having been told the coin had been altered. (3) KEY POINT HERE: Most of his coin auctions have been for key date Philly minted coins that sell for big dollars (1894 Morgan, 1899 Morgan, 1914 Barber Half, 1915 Barber Half) but that also have "O" or "S" mint counterparts that can be purchased on the cheap (1894-S, 1899-O, 1914-S, 1915-S). (4) Many of his past auctions have had clear obverse photos but fuzzy reverse photos, as if he is intentionally trying to hide the fact that the mintmark has been removed. While I can't be certain of it, I have a very strong suspicion that this guy is a complete scammer, and perhaps even doing the coin altering himself. He is, after all, even auctioning off pro-grade diamond nail files (which could easily be used to file down mint marks). The guy definitely found out that I was somewhat of an expert on midgrade Barber material before he shipped out the package to me; we exchanged a few emails where he asked me about my Ebay handle and I gave him my thoughts on a few Barbers he owned that he had wquestions on. So I have a feeling that this guy recognized I would know immediately that I had won an altered coin and that I would return it, so instead he decided to ship me an empty package. What sucks is I can't prove it, but you have to admit that a lot of what I'm saying makes sense. Another sad thing is that if you scroll down his feedback it appears that somebody with "ricko" in their Ebay handle got taken several times by this guy and doesn't even know it. Is that "our" ricko? And now the $64,000 Question: Do I go to Ebay with all of this? Should a bunch of forum members contact Ebay about this guy? >>
I say your best bet is to get on the phone with a paypal rep and go over this in an organized and somewhat expeditious manner and likely they will understand your issue and side with you. That is what I've done in the past.
--Jerry
Her initial email
Dear moloianrc,
The item was sent but was not in the package.
My response
First off all of my items are insured so I will process a refund immediately. Was the package damaged?
Next action, I was negged and yet I still refunded her money. Now I have her money again because she repaid!
P.S. Some people are putting small razor cuts right at the fold of the package so that it is not overly obvious the item was opened. Then the buyer just "tears" the package open and evidence of tampering is obsured enough to maybe not be notice.
It has been said that if PP insists that you send back 'the coin' to get a refund, do like he did
simply send back an empty envelope with DC to his address.
Sounds dishonest but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
<< <i>Looking at his feedback it appears his shill may have won all those private listings.
It has been said that if PP insists that you send back 'the coin' to get a refund, do like he did
simply send back an empty envelope with DC to his address.
Sounds dishonest but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. >>
I agree.
SNAD dispute should have been filled immediately. Can always stop that if remedied. Has that been done? Multiple folks here have said to do that, but no response to that route has been made.
Russ, NCNE
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>The fact that the package had "COINS" marked somewhere on the name or elsewhere might lead you to a win with PayPal. I don't know all of the PayPal regulations, but my private insurance specifically prohibits making any notation as to what is inside the package. This includes having the word "coins" or having a return address that contains the word "coins" within it. Look up your protection on PayPal. >>
Thats interesting TomB , but i'm wondering if one doesnt declare whats in the parcel somewhere how can they insure it ?
Customs comes into play for a lot of coin buyers too and they always want a slip saying whats in there stuck on the mailed item.A lot of UK dealers use the term numismatic rather than coins but i'm sure even the dullest of dullards catches on what it means eventually.
An unscrupulous mailman could wreak havoc with a handheld metal detecting probe/wand.They come pocket sized these days.
that has had a mint mark removed? Linky.
He is over in Henderson, across town from me, and if I can help just holler.
bob
<< <i>Seems to sell a bunch of Key Date(?) Barber halves from 1915. Does this look like a coin
that has had a mint mark removed? Linky.
He is over in Henderson, across town from me, and if I can help just holler.
bob >>
Yes, that coin does show signs of having a removed mintmark. I've looked at a lot of his prior auctions now and almost all of them fall into one of two categories:
(1) Questionable looking mintmark area
(2) Reverse image so fuzzy you can't make out the mintmark area.
I encourage everyone to look at more of his prior auctions and take note of this guy.
And thanks, Bob, for your offer to help if needed since you are in the same area as this fellow. I don't foresee a case where I'll need you for anything, but if something comes up I'll let you know.
And thanks to everyone for sharing their own stories of screwed up transactions and also for the great advice from my fellow collectors and the honorable and knowledgeable dealers of the boards here. You are what make this the great hobby that it is!
In regards to your particular case, I suspect you're going to have to eat this one, but be sure to neg him. It's unfortunate nobody else had the guts to do so or else you might have avoided this entire episode.
Does this look like a removed mint mark? I don't know this series, but something looks odd.
This morning as I was getting ready for work and thinking about the missing coin I decided to look at the envelope again. I saved everything from the experience including the portion of the envelope I tore to open it. As I was looking at the torn portion, I noticed something odd that made me think of this statement by AMRC:
<< <i>P.S. Some people are putting small razor cuts right at the fold of the package so that it is not overly obvious the item was opened. Then the buyer just "tears" the package open and evidence of tampering is obsured enough to maybe not be notice. >>
So I looked at the 1/10 of a millimeter edge of the envelope and sure enough, there was an extremely fine razor cut along about 3 inches of the edge.
I've now been in contact with the seller by phone about this new development and we are going to work together to file a postal claim (if we even can). Since I feel partly to blame for not noticing the cut in the edge before opening the package, and since he feels partly responsible for putting "COINS" in the address portion of the label I offered to eat half the cost if he would eat half the cost should our attempts with the post office fail. I could tell he was genuinely regretful but agreeable to that potential settlement.
So I'm going to my local post office to plead my case (probably unsuccessfully) to my local postmaster this afternoon. I'm virtually positive we have no recourse, but I'm going to at least try to do anything I can to recover our funds.
<< <i>It happened to me a few years back and oddly enough mine was a half dollar too.I paid plenty and got nothing , ebay and paypal didnt want to know and the seller agreed to refund only 50%.
I know perfectly well there was no coin in the envelope yet i still could do nothing about it.Color me paranoid but now when i open anything of value from ebay i have the missus record it to video.If everything is fine it's easy to delete.If it's not i at least have a leg to stand on.
Mine wasn't in a bubble mailer either , one tip to look for is the edges , the franking machine can push a coin to bust out an edge and its hardly visable.Ive had that happen too but at least i knew what happened there. >>
Dude , this is what is more likely.