Grades are in!
tcmitssr
Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭
I am in the process of transferring/upgrading my entire Classic Silver Commemorative typeset fully into Secure Plus holders. I'm doing this because virtually every coin is either a strong or "wow" toner and I want no room for anyone's doubt. Plus, I believe that Secure Plus is the wave of the future and will render CAC totally useless within two years.
As a result, I submitted 26 of my 50 coin set for regrade into Secure Plus.
Here are the results:
MS 66 Vermont - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 66 Gettysburg - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 67 Wisconsin - stays MS 67 (should have been a plus, came from a rattler)
MS 66 Bridgeport - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 66 California - stays MS 66 (bought from David Hall so had to think it had a chance for a plus)
MS 65 Lafayette - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 68 Oregon - stays MS 68 (fair grade)
MS 67 Elgin - stays MS 67 (surprised because I thought it had a shot at a plus)
MS 66 Huguenot - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 67 Albany - stays MS 67 (thought it had a 50-50 shot at a plus)
MS 67 Vancouver - stays MS 67 (thought it had a shot at a plus)
MS 66 Columbia - stays MS 66 fair grade)
MS 65 Sesquicentennial - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 65 Hawaiian - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 65 Grant with Star - stays MS 65 (toner from Shep, thought a 50-50 for a plus but a small scratch kept it from getting it. One of Bingham's best "castoffs"!)
MS 65 Alabama 2x2 - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 65 Hudson - stays MS 65 (surprised it didn't make MS 66)
MS 65 Isabella - stays MS 65 (stunned it didn't MS 66 as too many of the best "eyes" said it had to be, and was, "automatic" going in. Going to be resubmitted)
MS 66 Connecticut - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 65 Monroe - goes up to MS 65+ (deserved it, becomes a very low pop now!)
MS 65 Missouri 2x4 - goes up to MS 65+ (deserved and another very low pop of either 1 or 2.)
MS 66 Cleveland - goes up to MS 66+ (an iridescent toner that earned it)
MS 66 Lincoln - goes up to MS 66+ (perhaps the least toned coin in my typeset but amazing brightness and sharp strike)
MS 66 New Rochelle - goes up to MS 66+ (even with a small scratch, this one from Shepherd is an incredible toner! Without the tiny scratch, it would have made MS67)
MS 66 Pan Pac - goes up to MS 66+ (had a shot at MS 67 and only the highest standards kept it from the sky. If it needed 67.700 to make 68, this had to be 67.698 or 67.699)
MS 67 Antietam - goes up to MS 67+ (this is a monster! only 7 or 8 in MS68 and it is now Pop 1 in 67+! I'm going to resubmit it, it's a XMAS tree of colors.)
A couple of observations.....
1. 26.93 (7 of 26) percent of my total submissions to date have gone up in grade.
2. High end coins can have their grades rise. Secure Plus upgrades are, definitely not limited to average or lower grade coins.
3. I will resubmit 3-4 and I'm reasonably confident they will go up.
4. One dealer is responsible for 8 of my coins in this submission and 6 of his coins make up all but 1 of the ones that got upgrades. That dealer is Warren Mills of Rare Coins of New Hampshire. The other one was from Larry Shepherd. 75% of Warren's coins got upgrades which I think is an incredible testament to his skills and his reputation, between both collectors and dealers, as having the "best eye(s) in the business," in addition to being one of the nicest, fairest dealers, of a national scope, as well as being a real nice guy. When I called him to give him the results, he was about as happy for me as I was for myself. Warren and Jon Rosenthal, what a team! They've both simply told me "you have to buy this coin," at times, and I did...without question or doubt. The results proved them right. Think about it, "wow and monster" toners in high end: Missouri 2x4, Pan Pac and Antietam....all pass "the sniffer" and get additional recognition to boot. Hats off to Warren and Jon. If Shep hadn't gone to the ANA, I have no doubt that I'd have bought some more of his "wows" and I'd be doing even more of a happy dance as a result. Come on Larry, you've straighten out the ANA, get back in the coin business!
My remaining 24 contain many more of their coins. I can't wait for the next submissions come 2011! I have a Spanish Trail in MS 67 with a bean (the only coin I have that came, or is, CAC'ed and which means nothing to me). It's a toned work of art. Given Rare Coins of New Hampshire's "eyes,".......the best, indeed, may be yet to come!
(anyone feel this deserves a special kind of "you suck?"
As a result, I submitted 26 of my 50 coin set for regrade into Secure Plus.
Here are the results:
MS 66 Vermont - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 66 Gettysburg - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 67 Wisconsin - stays MS 67 (should have been a plus, came from a rattler)
MS 66 Bridgeport - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 66 California - stays MS 66 (bought from David Hall so had to think it had a chance for a plus)
MS 65 Lafayette - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 68 Oregon - stays MS 68 (fair grade)
MS 67 Elgin - stays MS 67 (surprised because I thought it had a shot at a plus)
MS 66 Huguenot - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 67 Albany - stays MS 67 (thought it had a 50-50 shot at a plus)
MS 67 Vancouver - stays MS 67 (thought it had a shot at a plus)
MS 66 Columbia - stays MS 66 fair grade)
MS 65 Sesquicentennial - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 65 Hawaiian - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 65 Grant with Star - stays MS 65 (toner from Shep, thought a 50-50 for a plus but a small scratch kept it from getting it. One of Bingham's best "castoffs"!)
MS 65 Alabama 2x2 - stays MS 65 (fair grade)
MS 65 Hudson - stays MS 65 (surprised it didn't make MS 66)
MS 65 Isabella - stays MS 65 (stunned it didn't MS 66 as too many of the best "eyes" said it had to be, and was, "automatic" going in. Going to be resubmitted)
MS 66 Connecticut - stays MS 66 (fair grade)
MS 65 Monroe - goes up to MS 65+ (deserved it, becomes a very low pop now!)
MS 65 Missouri 2x4 - goes up to MS 65+ (deserved and another very low pop of either 1 or 2.)
MS 66 Cleveland - goes up to MS 66+ (an iridescent toner that earned it)
MS 66 Lincoln - goes up to MS 66+ (perhaps the least toned coin in my typeset but amazing brightness and sharp strike)
MS 66 New Rochelle - goes up to MS 66+ (even with a small scratch, this one from Shepherd is an incredible toner! Without the tiny scratch, it would have made MS67)
MS 66 Pan Pac - goes up to MS 66+ (had a shot at MS 67 and only the highest standards kept it from the sky. If it needed 67.700 to make 68, this had to be 67.698 or 67.699)
MS 67 Antietam - goes up to MS 67+ (this is a monster! only 7 or 8 in MS68 and it is now Pop 1 in 67+! I'm going to resubmit it, it's a XMAS tree of colors.)
A couple of observations.....
1. 26.93 (7 of 26) percent of my total submissions to date have gone up in grade.
2. High end coins can have their grades rise. Secure Plus upgrades are, definitely not limited to average or lower grade coins.
3. I will resubmit 3-4 and I'm reasonably confident they will go up.
4. One dealer is responsible for 8 of my coins in this submission and 6 of his coins make up all but 1 of the ones that got upgrades. That dealer is Warren Mills of Rare Coins of New Hampshire. The other one was from Larry Shepherd. 75% of Warren's coins got upgrades which I think is an incredible testament to his skills and his reputation, between both collectors and dealers, as having the "best eye(s) in the business," in addition to being one of the nicest, fairest dealers, of a national scope, as well as being a real nice guy. When I called him to give him the results, he was about as happy for me as I was for myself. Warren and Jon Rosenthal, what a team! They've both simply told me "you have to buy this coin," at times, and I did...without question or doubt. The results proved them right. Think about it, "wow and monster" toners in high end: Missouri 2x4, Pan Pac and Antietam....all pass "the sniffer" and get additional recognition to boot. Hats off to Warren and Jon. If Shep hadn't gone to the ANA, I have no doubt that I'd have bought some more of his "wows" and I'd be doing even more of a happy dance as a result. Come on Larry, you've straighten out the ANA, get back in the coin business!
My remaining 24 contain many more of their coins. I can't wait for the next submissions come 2011! I have a Spanish Trail in MS 67 with a bean (the only coin I have that came, or is, CAC'ed and which means nothing to me). It's a toned work of art. Given Rare Coins of New Hampshire's "eyes,".......the best, indeed, may be yet to come!
(anyone feel this deserves a special kind of "you suck?"
0
Comments
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
From your descriptions the ones that made the + grades really deserved them!!
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What does this tell you about TPG grading? Maybe --- is needed.
<< <i>These seem like very nice results, but I am not clear how the PCGS Secure Plus system will render CAC obsolete in two years. >>
Thanks first for the compliment.
As for CAC, IMHO, it's only purpose is to be a "hand holder" for those unable to grade or fearful of being taken, especially with toners and particularly "wow and monster toners." If anyone is a collector of those kinds of toners, in whatever their specialty areas are....the only answer in the future to put the NT vs. AT question to rest is to go Secure Plus. Again, just my opinion but Secure Plus is the numismatic equivalent of "put up or shut up/walk the talk." Get a coin in that holder and you *know* it's rock solid so you don't need a "sticker" to verify whether the top grading service in the numismatic world made got it right.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>very nice results what level did you submit at $65 or $125? >>
Neither, I bought Platinum memberships for various family members and used the discounted "freebies."
Rumor has it that our dogs are getting Platinum memberships as Christmas presents. hehehe
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Congrats. On a recent 8 coins submission I had 2 coins (25%) go up. One a full grade, the other a plus. >>
Congrats back at you, as well. What were your coins?
It's tough to get a full grade at already high levels. I can imagine the graders/finalizer on my Antietam going "do we make another 1 or be very conservative and go with the +?"
I, definitely, think my Spanish Trail will 68 though in the future.
<< <i>Neither, I bought Platinum memberships for various family members and used the discounted "freebies."
Bob - this comment restored some of my respect and faith in you. Otherwise, I was surprised how you're throwing away money collecting plastic.
<< <i>Are you very happy with the grades?
From your descriptions the ones that made the + grades really deserved them!! >>
I'm trying to be both honest and realistic. I said many deserved being the same grade. My purpose in going all Secure Plus is to shut up any NT/AT questions in the future. I don't plan on ever selling my collection but who knows and who knows what my heirs will want to do. Going all Secure Plus ends the NT debate while getting anything CAC'ed would not do that.
I'm happy with the grades in all but a few cases. The Isabella should have been a 66. I won't name the dealers who have told me it was a mid to high end 66 in a 65 holder but they make up some of the most respected names in numismatics. Pretty much the same on the Hudson. Both will go in for eventual regrade.
Since the Wisconsin came from a rattler, I thought it had a better than even shot.
All in all though, hitting 25 percent of my first half....yes, I'm pretty pleased and.....particularly so because I know that I've saved about 2/3 of the best for the second half of my typeset's total submissions. I'm numismatically salivating at what that Spanish Trail in 67 will do.
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<< <i>Rumor has it that our dogs are getting Platinum memberships as Christmas presents. hehehe >>
That's a idea... our pets are notoriously hard to shop for.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>What a nice commem set! >>
Thanks for the kind words. Once our kid finishes college, I hope to give the real big boys a serious run for their money. At my heyday (pre expensive high school and now college), I got to 10 in the Registry and as of tonight I'm tied for 15.
I'm more proud though that our son won one of the two PCGS awards for YN of 2010. The kid really worked for it, both the bucks to get the coins and in carefully picking the coins.
<< <i>"26.93 (7 of 26) percent of my total submissions to date have gone up in grade."
What does this tell you about TPG grading? Maybe --- is needed. >>
Nah, I gotta disagree. CAC doesn't give you an upgrade even if you get a gold football sticker...when you think about it. Beans just say that your coins aren't in the bottom 1/3 for the grade and nothing official/scientific as to whether they are AT or NT if toners.
<< <i>Do you have pics of the Antietam colored commem?
That would be nice to see, bust it out
<< <i>Do you have pics of the Antietam colored commem?
I only wish I did. I am terrible with just taking pictures of anything, much less quality pics of a coin. Sorry.
It does, though, contain every color of the rainbow....on both the obverse and reverse and in many possible shades of color.
<< <i>If you believe that PCGS can program a computer or system to never miss an AT coin and always recognize an NT coin then that is fine. If you do not believe that PCGS can do that then there will always be room for interpretation. >>
You make a fair and strong, good point. Nothing is infallible but short of the Feds putting airport like technological standards into such machinery, I think we can put a very high, extremely so, degree of confidence in Secure Plus to be as close to infallible as possible....and it will only get better/stronger over time. IMHO.
Let me put it like this, if someone showed me a toner I really loved with a CAC, I'd consider it but maybe ask if the deal would be predicated on the coin making it past Secure Plus first. OTOH, if it were Secure Plus first, without a bean, I wouldn't have any doubts.
I don't consider myself a grading expert in any numismatic field but commems and I don't want to give the impression that I am anything else. I'm pretty comfortable in my knowledge and abilities to pick out NT commems. Knowing Secure Plus is around though.....particular for high grade $$$$ coins, well......science in the sniffer machine vs an opinion in a bean....each of us has to make our own decisions. I know I have mine.
<< <i>
Thanks, it's very appreciated!
<< <i>
<< <i>Neither, I bought Platinum memberships for various family members and used the discounted "freebies."
Bob - this comment restored some of my respect and faith in you. Otherwise, I was surprised how you're throwing away money collecting plastic. >>
Barry, I'm shocked you'd say this, even in jest.
<< <i>Congratulations >>
Thank you very much. One simple word means a great deal.
<< <i>
<< <i>Neither, I bought Platinum memberships for various family members and used the discounted "freebies."
Bob - this comment restored some of my respect and faith in you. Otherwise, I was surprised how you're throwing away money collecting plastic. >>
Seriously though Barry, I'm not about to sell my coins unless total disaster sets in which, we're both fortunate enough to likely avoid. OTOH, I don't want my heirs to have to be concerned with dealers (though, in that event, I've left instructions as to which dealers to trust) dismissing my collection as "possibly AT, definitely not NT, etc." Secure Plus ends that debate, period...game, set and match.
The real hoot would be after I get everything Secured Plus to submit all 50 for a bean and see if they'd all get them. Theoretically, as I understand CAC, that would be possible (edited to explain that "some may not pass the "CAC test"). Practically speaking though, it should be like having a blackjack shoe that is way heavy with aces and faces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you have pics of the Antietam colored commem?
That would be nice to see, bust it out
Yeah, right, sure...that's the ticket......bwahahahaha.
Seriously, good one!
<< <i>Bob, based on your comments in this thread, it sounds to me as if you are confusing "secure plus" and the "coin sniffer". >>
I don't think so, Mark. Secure Plus is what it is. It's there to weed out the coin docs and, IMHO, the biggest area of concern is artificial toning. Given what has to be done to AT a coin, I think Secure Plus/"sniffer/however one refers to it...is most valuable in ending any discussion of NT vs. AT while CAC, IMHO, at best gives a highly educated opinion/guess at it. Secure Plus though.....the science makes it much more definite in my opinion.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
<< <i>Bob, based on your comments in this thread, it sounds to me as if you are confusing "secure plus" and the "coin sniffer". >>
I don't think so, Mark. Secure Plus is what it is. It's there to weed out the coin docs and, IMHO, the biggest area of concern is artificial toning. Given what has to be done to AT a coin, I think Secure Plus/"sniffer/however one refers to it...is most valuable in ending any discussion of NT vs. AT while CAC, IMHO, at best gives a highly educated opinion/guess at it. Secure Plus though.....the science makes it much more definite in my opinion. >>
If your coins were scanned for the first time under "secure plus" there is no reference point to compare them to until they are re-submitted (under secure plus) at a later time. And I don't understand why you think that "secure plus" (as opposed to the "coin sniffer") is virtually infallible with respect to detecting artificial toning.
Based on your logic, there should be no doubt about the grade or appearance (especially since pcgs gave them +'s)
I was offered a goup of 5 St's (all 66+ as I said that DID NOT STICKER) and passed because JA didnt feel they were solid 66's even though they had +'s
The market looks for CAC coins over +'s.
look at the market for sight unseen 66 St's with a CAC sticker vs. just a pcgs +
that should tell you lots
to me. You must have the process fine tuned if you are resubmiting based on a judgment call of a few hundredths of a percentage points. Good luck!!
DOH!
At least the dogs are now platinum members, which is kinda cool. I wonder what they'll post about.
<< <i>Ive seen pcgs secure ms66+$20 st's that CAC would not sticker.
Based on your logic, there should be no doubt about the grade or appearance (especially since pcgs gave them +'s)
I was offered a goup of 5 St's (all 66+ as I said that DID NOT STICKER) and passed because JA didnt feel they were solid 66's even though they had +'s
The market looks for CAC coins over +'s.
look at the market for sight unseen 66 St's with a CAC sticker vs. just a pcgs +
that should tell you lots >>
Good points all....for now.
I think in the next two years though that everything will swing the other way towards Secure Plus and CAC will be almost a distant memory.
YMMV but that's JMHO.
<< <i>Very nice tcmitssr, you certainly blew by me when I wasn't looking, you are 16, and I am 24 on the 50 piece, however I am 16 on the 144 piece, so that means we are brothers
I was pretty solidly 10 for a long time and then 5 or 6 guys, with the monster money, blew by me in a couple of months. I locked in then around 15. Technically, I'm now both tied with the guy @15 but because he got there first, I'm considered 16. Not into a number's game per se, but it's also nice to know I have a highly world ranked/quality collection.
<< <i>I am sure you have your goals but that looks to be a impressive list
to me. You must have the process fine tuned if you are resubmiting based on a judgment call of a few hundredths of a percentage points. Good luck!! >>
As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a world class grader by a long shot. However, I do know commems. Back when crossovers were real possibilities, I had a success rate of about 85% of getting commems crossed the first time and at the same grade or higher. I just "have a feel" for good commems and the ones that will do well. 50 plus years of being involved with collecting them, I'd have better learned something about grading them.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you believe that PCGS can program a computer or system to never miss an AT coin and always recognize an NT coin then that is fine. If you do not believe that PCGS can do that then there will always be room for interpretation. >>
You make a fair and strong, good point. Nothing is infallible but short of the Feds putting airport like technological standards into such machinery... >>
I hope that the Feds never touch our junk, so to speak.
Great thread, and congrats on the submission!
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>"If your coins were scanned for the first time under "secure plus" there is no reference point to compare them to until they are re-submitted (under secure plus) at a later time. And I don't understand why you think that "secure plus" (as opposed to the "coin sniffer") is virtually infallible with respect to detecting artificial toning."
DOH!
At least the dogs are now platinum members, which is kinda cool. I wonder what they'll post about. >>
Well, there was the day, 11 years ago when she was 5 weeks old that I came home and discovered Millie chewing on the MS 64 Pan Pac that I then owned. I learned not to leave my coins around for about a year after that.
<< <i>How does the secure plus system determine if a coin is NT? I must have missed that part.
I did, as well.