<< <i>Not sure if I got this, but as I understand this situation.
Coin is in a Secure Plus holder so has been fingerprinted. Coin broken out and sent for regular slabbing so does not get fingerprinted and comes back as G-Tooled.
I have to assume that Stewart did not boink the coin...I have to.
Can't Steward crack it out and send it back in raw for a Secure Plus meaning it will get fingerprinted and should match the earlier fingerprint and get back into the 65 Secure Plus holder...again assuming Steward didn't screw around with the coin which I am fairly sure he wouldn't?
If that were to happen what would happen to the tooling description?
I'm confused. >>
and get back into the 65 Secure Plus holder...again assuming Steward didn't screw around with the coin which I am fairly sure he wouldn't?
now that someone else pulled a 98 on it, they are going to have to go back and ask why it pulled a 98 and ask themselves if they missed something during the previous SecurePlus review. Also, they can't guarantee an accident didn't happen to it along the way, so I'm sure they'll give it the once over all over again.
If they deem it not a 98, I guess it depends upon how they ask him to re-send it. It is a regrade? Grade review? Reholder? (It's not likely it will be a reholder)
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time). >>
I don't think they rescan them on non-SecurePlus subs.
But, as evidenced by this thread, you don't want to crackout a SecurePlus coin.
If you want to regrade a SecurePlus coin without the body bag surprise risk, send it in the holder. I guess it could still BB if they missed something the first time, but you will save shipping fees on a third opinion/submission.
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces.
Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder.
I just don't get it
Stewart Blay >>
Why did you crack it out in the first place? I just don't get it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>3) all coins sent through Secure Plus are photographed as well as scanned. If a coin that was previously sent through Secure Plus is sent in again, raw or in the holder, it will be matched via the scan and the photographs will be compared as well by the verifier.
If every coin submitted for Scure Plus automatically compared with the current database? Is it done manually or via computer similar to facial recognition software? >>
Near as I can tell the OP said nothing about how the coin was submitted after he cracked it out.
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time). >>
I thought that PCGS had intended to eventually scan all coins submitted, but may have not quite gotten to it yet. It would seem that his best bet would be to submit under secure and hope it matches a coin already in their database.
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time). >>
I don't think they rescan them on non-SecurePlus subs.
But, as evidenced by this thread, you don't want to crackout a SecurePlus coin.
If you want to regrade a SecurePlus coin without the body bag surprise risk, send it in the holder. I guess it could still BB if they missed something the first time, but you will save shipping fees on a third opinion/submission. >>
We don't know exactly how the raw coin was submitted nor do we know exactly what PCGS did to/with the coin after they got it.
Was the coin that was cracked out of the SP holder resubmitted under secure plus or regular submission? This may clear some issues up, but it may not. Sorry if it was already answered, but I didn't see the answer on first glance thru this thread.
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. Will’sProoflikes
Something tells me that Stewart is having a fun time watching everyone trying to figure this all out... busy "supposing" all kinds of things... making extrapolations...
Let's see... he posts a brief post to start a controversial thread and then "disappears"... and on and on this thread goes... kind of funny, if you ask me...
Maybe there is a method to his "madness" after all...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Aha, it must have gone in under a regular submission, which clears things up a bit, because as stated above SP submissions will not come back in a genuine holder.
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. Will’sProoflikes
Just got an email from Stewart Blay.....and I quote: "For some reason, I'm having trouble logging on to the U.S. Coin Forum tonight. Please say thank you to all of those who have commented in my thread. Maybe I should give Don a call on the PCGS Hotline!"
I'm "guessing" that it may have been something like:
* Coin was submitted under SecurePlus. Got secure, didn't get the plus. * Believing it to still be a higher grade/or plus, it was cracked out and resubmitted under the 'lower'/regular tier, so it wouldn't be immediately recognized by the scanning and would have a chance, in his mind, of getting a higher grade. * Some grader saw, or thought he saw, something that put it in a GEN holder. * Stewart gets it back and isn't happy and decides to pull the "I'll post about it because I am upset and I will also send it back with the original label since it was scanned by them".
Until he can log back in, I am guessing the above is WHAT happened and WHY.
<< <i>Something tells me that Stewart is having a fun time watching everyone trying to figure this all out... busy "supposing" all kinds of things... making extrapolations...
Let's see... he posts a brief post to start a controversial thread and then "disappears"... and on and on this thread goes... kind of funny, if you ask me...
Maybe there is a method to his "madness" after all...
>>
You may be correct SeaEagleCoins. Mr. Blay could have gave us more information in the original post, but he either forgot to do so or chose not to do so. Only he knows why.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>Until he can log back in, I am guessing the above is WHAT happened and WHY.
Bochiman, I was just joking about Stewart not logging on....sorry to confuse....I was trying to bring some humor like SeaEagle! >>
Ah yes, goldbully... yet I was not really joking... I really do see it as a distinct possibility that Mr Blay is "playing" us... just to see how we all might react to such a scenario...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>... I really do see it as a distinct possibility that Mr Blay is "playing" us... just to see how we all might react to such a scenario... >>
Possible. For now, I will take Mr. Blay for his word and assume he is telling the truth. I think he could have been purposely vague. He may have posted this publicly in order to show his displeasure with PCGS in this issue in an open forum, instead of dealing with them directly. A sort of passive-aggressive tactic.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
<< <i>There are a few issues that need to be addressed:
1) if you think a coin in a Secure Plus holder is undergraded all you have to do is submit it as a regrade, in the holder, and you have as good a chance of getting an upgrade as if you submit it through the Standard service. Secure Plus was not created to stop all upgrades, but to stop all upgrades on coins that had been subsequently doctored. Don't believe me? Try it, others have.
2) we have received coins that have previously been in Secure Plus holders that have beed doctored afterwards. They get body bagged. That is the point.
3) all coins sent through Secure Plus are photographed as well as scanned. If a coin that was previously sent through Secure Plus is sent in again, raw or in the holder, it will be matched via the scan and the photographs will be compared as well by the verifier.
4) If it turns out that we missed something during grading on any submission it will be covered by our guarantee. PCGS has the best guarantee in the businesss, hands down.
5) If you are buying an expensive coin Secure Plus is the best protection you can get. >>
IMHO, Don Willis did not write the above response to Stewart Blay's original post of this thread WITHOUT FULLY KNOWING WHO THE ORIGINAL POSTER IS AND WHAT HE IS SAYING. He would have talked to Stewart privately first. There are a number of implications in the original post and in Don's response. Let's see how this plays out. Steve
<< <i>I'm "guessing" that it may have been something like:
* Coin was submitted under SecurePlus. Got secure, didn't get the plus. * Believing it to still be a higher grade/or plus, it was cracked out and resubmitted under the 'lower'/regular tier, so it wouldn't be immediately recognized by the scanning and would have a chance, in his mind, of getting a higher grade. * Some grader saw, or thought he saw, something that put it in a GEN holder. * Stewart gets it back and isn't happy and decides to pull the "I'll post about it because I am upset and I will also send it back with the original label since it was scanned by them".
Until he can log back in, I am guessing the above is WHAT happened and WHY. >>
Thats what i got out of it.
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
Well, I didn't think about the possibility of it being an 1856. Stuart just said "an MS65 Flying Eagle cent" which I interpreted to mean one of the common ones. But if it was the one from the registry set thread, he stated that it was bumped to MS65+. The price guide for a 65+ is $100,000. That ups the ante a bit.
No sympathy here. People who crack out especially expensive coins and resubmit get what they deserve. The grade is an opinion at that point in time. PCGS has stated as such.
Given 2 assumptions that no doctoring was done, and that the scan-check process was carried out, what else would the "genuine-98" imply except that the coin got damaged? Any suggestions? Would the omission of a scan-check be a possibility, however scant?
Mr. Blaymis, is it possible that slight damage occurred unbeknownst to you when the coin was cracked out?
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. >>
Why?? >>
My question exactly... >>
Two possible reasons come to mind:
He thought he could resubmit it for a higher grade and that submitting it raw would give him a better chance than submitting it in the original slab as a grade review.
He wanted to mess with the coin to increase the likelyhood of a higher grade.
In any case he gambled and lost.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Something is indeed fishy, here, folks. This guy starts this new thread and exactly one minute later a member replies with a question and it goes unanswered. How could this guy have missed that reply just one minute after he started the thread? And this is five pages deep, now, and he's still not here.
I don't care who this guy is, that's really inconsiderate.
Something is indeed fishy, here, folks. This guy starts this new thread and exactly one minute later a member replies with a question and it goes unanswered. How could this guy have missed that reply just one minute after he started the thread? And this is five pages deep, now, and he's still not here.
I don't care who this guy is, that's really inconsiderate.
Yeah, it is - especially when a bunch of people get sucked into a 5 page thread and still not a peep of explanation.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Isn't the crux here why PCGS's secure plus image id database didn't pick up on it as previously graded?
Of course I can only assume the coin was not messed with or impaired post crackout AND it was resubmitted under the secure plus tier
and if so,
PCGS realized it was previously overgraded and Stewart's check is in the mail.
"This new service takes advantage of groundbreaking new laser technology designed to capture a unique identifying record of each coin. These records are archived by PCGS and are referenced in subsequent submissions. If a coin is recognized as having previously been submitted, its record(s) are forwarded into the grading process. This historical data will assist PCGS in identifying coins that have been artificially toned or altered in some other way."
Note it says "If a coin is recognized as having previously been submitted..." which implies it might not be so recognized OR its records were not forwarded (for whatever reason) if it was in fact "recognized". Sounds like either a technology or process problem.
I figured the first instance... he thought he had a shot at the 66 grade. The second instance just seems to be hubris... why would someone intentionally "mess with" a coin at MS65?
Perhaps this touches on an underlying thought process so pervasive in this hobby (in particular) and in this country (in general)... doing whatever it takes to win. ...ie: the ends justify the means...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
<< <i>... why would someone intentionally "mess with" a coin at MS65? >>
To get an MS66? What if the coin had a bit of haze that could be removed using acetone without harming the coin and will enhance the luster/brilliance?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Something is indeed fishy, here, folks. This guy starts this new thread and exactly one minute later a member replies with a question and it goes unanswered. How could this guy have missed that reply just one minute after he started the thread? And this is five pages deep, now, and he's still not here.
I don't care who this guy is, that's really inconsiderate.
Yeah, it is - especially when a bunch of people get sucked into a 5 page thread and still not a peep of explanation. >>
did ya see my post at the top of page 4? ... Stewart is probably having a blast watching everyone flapping around over this... I do think "we been had"... and it ain't even April 1st
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
"No sympathy here. People who crack out especially expensive coins and resubmit get what they deserve. The grade is an opinion at that point in time. PCGS has stated as such."
What people deserve that crackout secure plus coins and resubmit under secure plus is the same grade or compensation if a lower grade - no?
Note #'s 11, 16, 27, 29 (sounds like NO reason it should have not been recognized), & 40 (perhaps the time is at hand):
11. Q: The Secure Plus procedure seems to be contradictory to the obvious subjective nature of grading. Is this just the precursor to computerized grading that will attempt to eliminate any subjectivity? Will Secure Plus lock the coin in at Genuine or its assigned numerical grade? DW: The most important point of the Secure part of our product is simply that we will always know the history of the coin. It doesn't mean we will never change the grade. It doesn't mean that the computer will grade the coin. It only means that we will now have more information about the coin that we are grading. I think that's a good thing.
16. Q: How will Secure Plus affect the grading process? Will it lock a coin in at a grade? What does the + mean? DW: PCGS Secure Plus does not lock in the grade of your coin forever. What is does is tell us what your coin has graded in the past. That way we can make a more informed decision. Do we ever make mistakes? Yes. Will we ever change a Secure Plus grade? Yes
27. Q: Once a coin is graded and in a Secure Plus holder, can someone who is hemming and hawing send it back in (without even cracking it first) for a grade re-evaluation... or is the grade fixed once and for all? DW: This is a good question and important. NO - just because a coin is in a Secure Plus holder does not mean that the grade can never be changed. Of course it can be re-evaluated. All that is for certain is that we will have the grading history of the coin and we will be able to refer to it before the new grade is assigned. It DOES NOT mean we can't change the grade.
29. Q: Once a coin is scanned into the database, what happens if it is cracked and substantially "reworked?" Will you still be able to match the coin with the database entry? I'm assuming you tried this during testing; just wondering how much a coin can be worked over before it fails to match. DW: We reworked a lot of coins in our testing. We actually had to rework the coin to the point of destroying it before it would not be recognized.
40. Q: Are you only going to scan the Secure Plus coins or will you scan every coin that comes in? I ask this because what prevents someone from cracking out a stolen Secure Plus coin and resubmitting at the normal level? Or submitting doctored coins at the regular level? DW: We realize there are ways to exploit the system and we will deal with them in due time. As we launch on day one, we don't know what to expect and we are being a little conservative. Eventually I would like to check every coin that comes in on either service, simply to see if it had ever been in a Secure Plus holder, but that is down the road.
what if he tried to remove the carbon spots by the u in united and the 1st A in America, would the 98 not be warranted then if he did? Besides while I don't dabble in the 100k market one; one of my rules of thumb with old coins is that they should never be all one color if original. If you look at Dr Tim Larson's coin it has a skin I would expect to see more so then Stewart coin. While I am not saying his coin isn't MA, I just wouldn't be surprised if it had impaired cartwheel.
If this were indeed about a MS65/66 1856 FE cent, it certainly would not go unnoticed or challenged before giving a final grade.
I don't envy Stewart's position considering he has a raw coin that currently is in limbo. The best that can happen is that he ends up with the same grade again. The worst case is that the coin stays raw based on a perceived change since its last appearance.
Comments
<< <i>Not sure if I got this, but as I understand this situation.
Coin is in a Secure Plus holder so has been fingerprinted.
Coin broken out and sent for regular slabbing so does not get fingerprinted and comes back as G-Tooled.
I have to assume that Stewart did not boink the coin...I have to.
Can't Steward crack it out and send it back in raw for a Secure Plus meaning it will get fingerprinted and should match the earlier fingerprint
and get back into the 65 Secure Plus holder...again assuming Steward didn't screw around with the coin which I am fairly sure he wouldn't?
If that were to happen what would happen to the tooling description?
I'm confused. >>
and get back into the 65 Secure Plus holder...again assuming Steward didn't screw around with the coin which I am fairly sure he wouldn't?
now that someone else pulled a 98 on it, they are going to have to go back and ask why it pulled a 98 and ask themselves if they missed something during the previous SecurePlus review. Also, they can't guarantee an accident didn't happen to it along the way, so I'm sure they'll give it the once over all over again.
If they deem it not a 98, I guess it depends upon how they ask him to re-send it. It is a regrade? Grade review? Reholder? (It's not likely it will be a reholder)
<< <i>I'm confused.
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time). >>
I don't think they rescan them on non-SecurePlus subs.
But, as evidenced by this thread, you don't want to crackout a SecurePlus coin.
If you want to regrade a SecurePlus coin without the body bag surprise risk, send it in the holder. I guess it could still BB if they missed something the first time, but you will save shipping fees on a third opinion/submission.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces.
Now I have to send it back with the Secure tag stating the grade as MS 65. It will then be placed back in an MS 65 holder.
I just don't get it
Stewart Blay >>
Why did you crack it out in the first place? I just don't get it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>3) all coins sent through Secure Plus are photographed as well as scanned. If a coin that was previously sent through Secure Plus is sent in again, raw or in the holder, it will be matched via the scan and the photographs will be compared as well by the verifier.
If every coin submitted for Scure Plus automatically compared with the current database?
Is it done manually or via computer similar to facial recognition software? >>
Near as I can tell the OP said nothing about how the coin was submitted after he cracked it out.
<< <i>Near as I can tell the OP said nothing about how the coin was submitted after he cracked it out. >>
PCGS won't "Genuine Holder" problem coins in a Secure Plus holder.
<< <i>I'm confused.
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time). >>
I thought that PCGS had intended to eventually scan all coins submitted, but may have not quite gotten to it yet. It would seem that his best bet would be to submit under secure and hope it matches a coin already in their database.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm confused.
I too find the Secure Plus platform to be confusing.
If an SP coin gets returned to PCGS, my expectation is that no matter what the service tier, the coin should be recognized. Any interval alteration should be detectable, and the coin should be graded accordingly. If this is not the case, I fail to see the value of the Secure Plus tier (but that has been my position for a long time). >>
I don't think they rescan them on non-SecurePlus subs.
But, as evidenced by this thread, you don't want to crackout a SecurePlus coin.
If you want to regrade a SecurePlus coin without the body bag surprise risk, send it in the holder. I guess it could still BB if they missed something the first time, but you will save shipping fees on a third opinion/submission. >>
We don't know exactly how the raw coin was submitted nor do we know exactly what PCGS did to/with the coin after they got it.
Will’sProoflikes
Let's see... he posts a brief post to start a controversial thread and then "disappears"... and on and on this thread goes... kind of funny, if you ask me...
Maybe there is a method to his "madness" after all...
Will’sProoflikes
"For some reason, I'm having trouble logging on to the U.S. Coin Forum tonight.
Please say thank you to all of those who have commented in my thread.
Maybe I should give Don a call on the PCGS Hotline!"
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
* Coin was submitted under SecurePlus. Got secure, didn't get the plus.
* Believing it to still be a higher grade/or plus, it was cracked out and resubmitted under the 'lower'/regular tier, so it wouldn't be immediately recognized by the scanning and would have a chance, in his mind, of getting a higher grade.
* Some grader saw, or thought he saw, something that put it in a GEN holder.
* Stewart gets it back and isn't happy and decides to pull the "I'll post about it because I am upset and I will also send it back with the original label since it was scanned by them".
Until he can log back in, I am guessing the above is WHAT happened and WHY.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Something tells me that Stewart is having a fun time watching everyone trying to figure this all out... busy "supposing" all kinds of things... making extrapolations...
Let's see... he posts a brief post to start a controversial thread and then "disappears"... and on and on this thread goes... kind of funny, if you ask me...
Maybe there is a method to his "madness" after all...
You may be correct SeaEagleCoins. Mr. Blay could have gave us more information in the original post, but he either forgot to do so or chose not to do so. Only he knows why.
Bochiman, I was just joking about Stewart not logging on....sorry to confuse....I was trying to bring some humor like SeaEagle!
<< <i>. It came back in a genuine holder (98) because of tooling or altered surfaces. >>
If nothing changed then you wonder how it got by the first time.
<< <i>Until he can log back in, I am guessing the above is WHAT happened and WHY.
Bochiman, I was just joking about Stewart not logging on....sorry to confuse....I was trying to bring some humor like SeaEagle!
Ah yes, goldbully... yet I was not really joking... I really do see it as a distinct possibility that Mr Blay is "playing" us... just to see how we all might react to such a scenario...
<< <i>... I really do see it as a distinct possibility that Mr Blay is "playing" us... just to see how we all might react to such a scenario... >>
Possible. For now, I will take Mr. Blay for his word and assume he is telling the truth. I think he could have been purposely vague. He may have posted this publicly in order to show his displeasure with PCGS in this issue in an open forum, instead of dealing with them directly. A sort of passive-aggressive tactic.
will this coin now recieve "special" attention?
I can't wait to see the outcome. this should be interesting.
<< <i>There are a few issues that need to be addressed:
1) if you think a coin in a Secure Plus holder is undergraded all you have to do is submit it as a regrade, in the holder, and you have as good a chance of getting an upgrade as if you submit it through the Standard service. Secure Plus was not created to stop all upgrades, but to stop all upgrades on coins that had been subsequently doctored. Don't believe me? Try it, others have.
2) we have received coins that have previously been in Secure Plus holders that have beed doctored afterwards. They get body bagged. That is the point.
3) all coins sent through Secure Plus are photographed as well as scanned. If a coin that was previously sent through Secure Plus is sent in again, raw or in the holder, it will be matched via the scan and the photographs will be compared as well by the verifier.
4) If it turns out that we missed something during grading on any submission it will be covered by our guarantee. PCGS has the best guarantee in the businesss, hands down.
5) If you are buying an expensive coin Secure Plus is the best protection you can get. >>
IMHO, Don Willis did not write the above response to Stewart Blay's original post of this thread WITHOUT FULLY KNOWING WHO THE ORIGINAL POSTER IS AND WHAT HE IS SAYING. He would have talked to Stewart privately first. There are a number of implications in the original post and in Don's response. Let's see how this plays out. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>is there a picture of this coin floating around? >>
It may be the one from this thread on the Registry Forum
Not sure though.
<< <i>I'm "guessing" that it may have been something like:
* Coin was submitted under SecurePlus. Got secure, didn't get the plus.
* Believing it to still be a higher grade/or plus, it was cracked out and resubmitted under the 'lower'/regular tier, so it wouldn't be immediately recognized by the scanning and would have a chance, in his mind, of getting a higher grade.
* Some grader saw, or thought he saw, something that put it in a GEN holder.
* Stewart gets it back and isn't happy and decides to pull the "I'll post about it because I am upset and I will also send it back with the original label since it was scanned by them".
Until he can log back in, I am guessing the above is WHAT happened and WHY. >>
Thats what i got out of it.
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>Stewart can't log on? Some how I think numismatics just got a bit better.....
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>is there a picture of this coin floating around? >>
It may be the one from this thread on the Registry Forum
Not sure though. >>
Well, I didn't think about the possibility of it being an 1856. Stuart just said "an MS65 Flying Eagle cent" which I interpreted to mean one of the common ones. But if it was the one from the registry set thread, he stated that it was bumped to MS65+. The price guide for a 65+ is $100,000. That ups the ante a bit.
--Jerry
Mr. Blaymis, is it possible that slight damage occurred unbeknownst to you when the coin was cracked out?
--John
<< <i>
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. >>
Why??
My question exactly...
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I cracked out an ms 65 Flying Eagle cent out of a PCGS Secure holder. >>
Why??
My question exactly... >>
Two possible reasons come to mind:
He thought he could resubmit it for a higher grade and that submitting it raw would give him a better chance than submitting it in the original slab as a grade review.
He wanted to mess with the coin to increase the likelyhood of a higher grade.
In any case he gambled and lost.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't care who this guy is, that's really inconsiderate.
I don't care who this guy is, that's really inconsiderate.
Yeah, it is - especially when a bunch of people get sucked into a 5 page thread and still not a peep of explanation.
I knew it would happen.
Of course I can only assume the coin was not messed with or impaired post crackout AND it was resubmitted under the secure plus tier
and if so,
PCGS realized it was previously overgraded and Stewart's check is in the mail.
"This new service takes advantage of groundbreaking new laser technology designed to capture a unique identifying record of each coin. These records are archived by PCGS and are referenced in subsequent submissions.
If a coin is recognized as having previously been submitted, its record(s) are forwarded into the grading process. This historical data will assist PCGS in identifying coins that have been artificially toned or altered in some other way."
Note it says "If a coin is recognized as having previously been submitted..." which implies it might not be so recognized OR its records were not forwarded (for whatever reason) if it was in fact "recognized".
Sounds like either a technology or process problem.
I figured the first instance... he thought he had a shot at the 66 grade. The second instance just seems to be hubris... why would someone intentionally "mess with" a coin at MS65?
Perhaps this touches on an underlying thought process so pervasive in this hobby (in particular) and in this country (in general)... doing whatever it takes to win. ...ie: the ends justify the means...
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<< <i>... why would someone intentionally "mess with" a coin at MS65? >>
To get an MS66? What if the coin had a bit of haze that could be removed using acetone without harming the coin and will enhance the luster/brilliance?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Something is indeed fishy, here, folks. This guy starts this new thread and exactly one minute later a member replies with a question and it goes unanswered. How could this guy have missed that reply just one minute after he started the thread? And this is five pages deep, now, and he's still not here.
I don't care who this guy is, that's really inconsiderate.
Yeah, it is - especially when a bunch of people get sucked into a 5 page thread and still not a peep of explanation. >>
did ya see my post at the top of page 4? ... Stewart is probably having a blast watching everyone flapping around over this... I do think "we been had"... and it ain't even April 1st
What people deserve that crackout secure plus coins and resubmit under secure plus is the same grade or compensation if a lower grade - no?
<< <i>I am sure that PCGS will buy it back if they made a mistake, >>
Where can I find the fine print on this service?
Note #'s 11, 16, 27, 29 (sounds like NO reason it should have not been recognized), & 40 (perhaps the time is at hand):
11. Q: The Secure Plus procedure seems to be contradictory to the obvious subjective nature of grading. Is this just the precursor to computerized grading that will attempt to eliminate any subjectivity? Will Secure Plus lock the coin in at Genuine or its assigned numerical grade?
DW: The most important point of the Secure part of our product is simply that we will always know the history of the coin. It doesn't mean we will never change the grade. It doesn't mean that the computer will grade the coin. It only means that we will now have more information about the coin that we are grading. I think that's a good thing.
16. Q: How will Secure Plus affect the grading process? Will it lock a coin in at a grade? What does the + mean?
DW: PCGS Secure Plus does not lock in the grade of your coin forever. What is does is tell us what your coin has graded in the past. That way we can make a more informed decision. Do we ever make mistakes? Yes. Will we ever change a Secure Plus grade? Yes
27. Q: Once a coin is graded and in a Secure Plus holder, can someone who is hemming and hawing send it back in (without even cracking it first) for a grade re-evaluation... or is the grade fixed once and for all?
DW: This is a good question and important. NO - just because a coin is in a Secure Plus holder does not mean that the grade can never be changed. Of course it can be re-evaluated. All that is for certain is that we will have the grading history of the coin and we will be able to refer to it before the new grade is assigned. It DOES NOT mean we can't change the grade.
29. Q: Once a coin is scanned into the database, what happens if it is cracked and substantially "reworked?" Will you still be able to match the coin with the database entry? I'm assuming you tried this during testing; just wondering how much a coin can be worked over before it fails to match.
DW: We reworked a lot of coins in our testing. We actually had to rework the coin to the point of destroying it before it would not be recognized.
40. Q: Are you only going to scan the Secure Plus coins or will you scan every coin that comes in? I ask this because what prevents someone from cracking out a stolen Secure Plus coin and resubmitting at the normal level? Or submitting doctored coins at the regular level?
DW: We realize there are ways to exploit the system and we will deal with them in due time. As we launch on day one, we don't know what to expect and we are being a little conservative. Eventually I would like to check every coin that comes in on either service, simply to see if it had ever been in a Secure Plus holder, but that is down the road.
I'm not so sure it is. But I may be. I attached the link in a previous reply only as a possibility.
Stewart can clear this up for everyone. Maybe he's waiting until it hits 100 to answer.
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I don't envy Stewart's position considering he has a raw coin that currently is in limbo. The best that can happen is that he ends up with the same grade again. The worst case is that the coin stays raw based on a perceived change since its last appearance.
roadrunner