What do you think of Ebay listings concerning PCGS genuine slabs?
relicsncoins
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Here is an example.
Genuine 92
Maybe I missed it, but no where in the auction does it mention this coin has been cleaned in PCGS's opinion. Unless you are somewhat PCGS savy and know what the various genie. codes are, you might not know you just paid $1300 for a common date cleaned quarter eagle.
Genuine 92
Maybe I missed it, but no where in the auction does it mention this coin has been cleaned in PCGS's opinion. Unless you are somewhat PCGS savy and know what the various genie. codes are, you might not know you just paid $1300 for a common date cleaned quarter eagle.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
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www.brunkauctions.com
Part of me thinks that, if you are buying a PCGS slabbed coin, particularly Genuine, you should take a moment to get educated.
The other part of me really believes in better disclosure.
For the particular auction linked, he, imho, crosses the line by stating "Looks MS64" in the auction description. If that is the case, then he should declare what PCGS "Gen'ed" it for.
If it were just an auction, without someone trying to state what a grade is, then I may default back to the "get educated" portion.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>there is NO problem with that listing whatsoever, in my opinion.........a full, clear pic of the slab tells the story to any potential bidder >>
True, I guess I'm of the opinion, that the more information you provide the potential buyer, the less likely you are to run into a hassle with that buyer down the road. That's just me I guess.
the seller is a lifelong numismatist whose reputation is beyond reproach.........his buyers are satisfied or the deal is not fully consummated...........also, the opinion grade he gives is not an unqualified one (go to PCGS' home page and there is his picture
www.brunkauctions.com
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>Looks MS-64 to us. Beautiful, lustrous, gold coin. Please enlarge the photos to see the exact coin this listing is for.
Please Note: Slabbed coins can be very difficult to photograph due to the angle they sit inside, and many of them will have very small scuffs and scratches that could impede the image of the coin. Please contact us if you need clarification regarding images. >>
Lifelong numismatist/dealer or not, it's a "PCGS cleaned" coin, no mention of what the code stands for, and then the person states "looks MS64 to us" and states that "slabbed coins" may have "very small scuffs and scratches that could impeded the image of the coin".
Depending on the method of cleaning, that is very convenient (yes, it may be boilerplate for the seller's listings, but where things like this happen, it is uncool).
I guess that since I am not a dealer, I err on the side of collectors and will get attacked for my opinions in this thread by a few dealers....just a guess....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>...and states that "slabbed coins" may have "very small scuffs and scratches that could impeded the image of the coin".
Depending on the method of cleaning, that is very convenient (yes, it may be boilerplate for the seller's listings, but where things like this happen, it is uncool).. >>
Do you suppose it's possible the "very small scuffs and scratches that could impeded the image of the coin" could mean small scuffs and scratches on th slab, and have nothing to do with the coin having been cleaned?
<< <i>
<< <i>...and states that "slabbed coins" may have "very small scuffs and scratches that could impeded the image of the coin".
Depending on the method of cleaning, that is very convenient (yes, it may be boilerplate for the seller's listings, but where things like this happen, it is uncool).. >>
Do you suppose it's possible the "very small scuffs and scratches that could impeded the image of the coin" could mean small scuffs and scratches on th slab, and have nothing to do with the coin having been cleaned? >>
Yes, I do, because I have taken coin pictures, been on these boards for a long time, and, while I may not be elite numismatically, I think I am better educated than many out there.
Now, do YOU think that someone would/could attribute marks on the coin as being on the slab because of the seller's statement?
Also, did you ignore, on purpose, the part where I said "it may be boilerplate for the seller's listings"? I'm pretty sure you know what boilerplate means
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Now, do YOU think that someone would/could attribute marks on the coin as being on the slab because of the seller's statement? >>
Sure they could. If one tries hard enough, one could make a case for lots of things. Some of them might even be so.
<< <i>Also, did you ignore, on purpose, the part where I said "it may be boilerplate for the seller's listings"? I'm pretty sure you know what boilerplate means
I know what boilerplate means. I ignored it because I figured if the comment was bolierplate, it almost certainly referred to marks on slabs, not on the coins themselves. And since the topic of this thread is sellers who don't describe their coins well enough to satisfy everybody and not those who have problems photographing coins in slabs, I didn't think it was relevant.
<< <i>As much as we would like everyone in the hobby to be as well educated as we are on these boards.......well most of us.....some of us...a few of us. The reallity is, that most collectors out there are not. What if this was a Christmas gift from some Grandma to her Grandson? 5 years down the road when he is getting ready to attend college, he is selling some stuff to pay for it. He takes this coin into a dealer and they explain to him, that the coin is cleaned and worth little more than melt, and get's an offer for $250 for it. Knowing that his Grandma paid $1350 for it, he won't be too happy and neither will she if she is still around. Hypothetical, yes, but these are the types of things that give the hobby and coin dealers in general a bad name. Why not just put in the auction, that the coin has been cleaned according to PCGS. However, we believe otherwise, and then let the chips fall where they may. >>
I agree they should tell what the code means for the novices that may be looking and buying. Then again the novices may not understand a cleaned coin is not (normally) as desirable as one that has not been cleaned.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>An honest seller would give a full description of the coin and, since the problem is not spelled out on the label, it should be mentioned in the description. Not every new collector knows what the 92 hidden within the serial number means. >>
Agree with Perry, however my previous dealings with this seller never gave me reason to question his honesty. I believe it to be a matter of full and complete disclosure and not a matter of being dishonest. Hopefully he will take the comments here as constructive critiicism for future ebay listings.
From the same seller's current listings:
"There are known New Orleans proof issues and I believe this could be one of them."
I'm not a Barber Dime collector, could someone excplain these known issues? Since seller does disclose this information, maybe he should elaborate just a bit.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
I am extremely disappointed in that listing of Julian's. If he can got to the trouble to provide his own favorable opinion of the coin ("Looks MS-64 to us. Beautiful, lustrous, gold coin."), I feel that he can and should note what PCGS thought of it.
I believe that it is better to disclose such information/opinion, regardless of the images provided or the reputation of the seller.
Edited to add: I have sent him a link to this thread, so as not to speak badly about him behind his back.
Excellent return policy, good pics and offers better communication & pics if needed!
How about seller's who buy graded and/or problem coins, crack and list raw with their opinion of grade(either speific or in general) without mention of what it was graded or what problem it had in the TPG's opinion. I see this from time to time and I say this is deceptive.
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How about seller's who buy graded and/or problem coins, crack and list raw with their opinion of grade(either speific or in general) without mention of what it was graded or what problem it had in the TPG's opinion. I see this from time to time and I say this is deceptive. >>
There is no assurance that it will bodybag upon resubmission. Grading is subjective. Upon submission by the new owner, what if it does grade what the seller opines?
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<< <i>
How about seller's who buy graded and/or problem coins, crack and list raw with their opinion of grade(either speific or in general) without mention of what it was graded or what problem it had in the TPG's opinion. I see this from time to time and I say this is deceptive. >>
There is no assurance that it will bodybag upon resubmission. Grading is subjective. Upon submission by the new owner, what if it does grade what the seller opines? >>
As RWB stated...full open disclosure. That's my position too. It's to easy for someone to crack problem coins and conveniently list as 'nice' 'MS' or 'high AU' or even 'MS64 in our opinion'. They may actually think the TPG got it wrong - that's fine. But state what you did!
<< <i>PCGS chose not the list the problem on the slab...I disagree with that...but there is no requirement to state any information other than on the slab label. >>
Perhaps they feel that it cheapens their brand; kinda like why you never see a $300 clunker in the used car lot of a Caddy dealer.
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<< <i>
<< <i>
How about seller's who buy graded and/or problem coins, crack and list raw with their opinion of grade(either speific or in general) without mention of what it was graded or what problem it had in the TPG's opinion. I see this from time to time and I say this is deceptive. >>
There is no assurance that it will bodybag upon resubmission. Grading is subjective. Upon submission by the new owner, what if it does grade what the seller opines? >>
As RWB stated...full open disclosure. That's my position too. It's to easy for someone to crack problem coins and conveniently list as 'nice' 'MS' or 'high AU' or even 'MS64 in our opinion'. They may actually think the TPG got it wrong - that's fine. But state what you did! >>
Actually, I agree. Was just stirrin up chit.
<< <i>...but there is no requirement to state any information other than on the slab label. >>
There is a requirement for ebay coin listings that states "Include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition."
Ebay stamps, currency and coins policy
It's not a matter of "requirement," it's a matter of being up front with the buyer.
Would you apply this logic to an ebay listing for an AGE in an MS70 holder that has developed "copper" spotting or to an ASE in an MS70 holder that has developed "milk" spotting? Or should these be disclosed in the description, espcially if not visual in the pics?
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>There is a requirement for ebay coin listings that states "Include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition."
It's not a matter of "requirement," it's a matter of being up front with the buyer. >>
Unfortunately it is a 'guideline' not a requirement and a seller can have a sudden case of amnesia and state in general... origin as 'US', Date of Issue "as listed", condition 'nice', 'high AU', or 'MS64 in our opinion'.
I think that a problem coin cracked and listed as raw is 'relevant information' but again, not a requirement. It would be nice if Ebay had some teeth here.
I also think that a graded TPG AU58 listed as MS64, 3, 2,1,0 is deceptive if you don't disclose what it came out of. Again, it's OK to disagree with the subjective grade but state what you did or know.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>There is a requirement for ebay coin listings that states "Include all relevant information that you know about the item, such as origin, date of issue, and condition."
It's not a matter of "requirement," it's a matter of being up front with the buyer.
Unfortunately it is a 'guideline' not a requirement and a seller can have a sudden case of amnesia and state in general... origin as 'US', Date of Issue "as listed", condition 'nice', 'high AU', or 'MS64 in our opinion'. >>
From their coin policy: "Make sure your listing follows these guidelines. If it doesn't, it may be removed, and you may be subject to a range of other actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account."
If you want to ensure your listing doesn't get poofed, you are "required" to follow their "policy." Sounds like a requirement to me.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>
From their coin policy: "Make sure your listing follows these guidelines. If it doesn't, it may be removed, and you may be subject to a range of other actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account."
If you want to ensure your listing doesn't get poofed, you are "required" to follow their "policy." Sounds like a requirement to me. >>
Hey, I agree with you...it's just Ebay says 'guidline'. It may be your interpretation as a 'requirement' yet we still see the same crap in many listings. Like I said, some Ebay enforement would be nice. Personally, any genie I have ever sold has the reason stated so in the listing. Heck, maybe they are policing and we just don't know it.
Link
"A lustrous coin that looks MS64 to us, although PCGS has called it cleaned. We, however, don't see the cleaning PCGS is describing."
That description still says it looks MS64, acknowledges the problem, and then says how minor it is. All the information is there, and the coin still doesn't sound like a dog.
<< <i>I don't think it's dishonest per se, but perhaps disappointing. The information is basically there, so why not just say it so everyone is clear? Yes, I think buyers have a responsibility to educate themselves. But, at the same time, there's no good reason not to provide the buyers with all the useful information they need. I probably would have described the coin like this:
"A lustrous coin that looks MS64 to us, although PCGS has called it cleaned. We, however, don't see the cleaning PCGS is describing."
That description still says it looks MS64, acknowledges the problem, and then says how minor it is. All the information is there, and the coin still doesn't sound like a dog. >>
Sounds good to me!!
Yeah, it looks 64 to me too..........
<< <i>I feel for the buyer of that coin. A cleaned common date for MS64+ money?
Yeah, it looks 64 to me too.......... >>
A nice certified MS64 can be obtained for a lot less than what that one sold for. And I would wager that it would be much easier to sell for anywhere close to the buyer's cost.
If the coin were raw then yes, I believe that any cleaning should be disclosed. Since the lable in this case does it for him there is no reason to further define it in the discription. A little bit of personal responsiblity on the part of a prospective buyer goes a long way.
<< <i>From the same seller's current listings:
"There are known New Orleans proof issues and I believe this could be one of them"
I'm not a Barber Dime collector, could someone excplain these known issues? Since seller does disclose this information, maybe he should elaborate just a bit.
>>
Wow! This could get interesting............
<< <i>Maybe it is just me, but I don't see a problem with the listing. The coin in question is EXACTLY what Julian says it is, ie an attractive coin in a PCGS genuine holder. The coin is in the holder for one reason and one reason only; it tells the buyer that its authenticity is guaranteed by PCGS.
If the coin were raw then yes, I believe that any cleaning should be disclosed. Since the lable in this case does it for him there is no reason to further define it in the discription. A little bit of personal responsiblity on the part of a prospective buyer goes a long way. >>
If the relevant information is already on the grading label, there is also no need to add the superlatives about the coin in the description. Note the potentially relevant positives AND negatives, or neither, in such cases.
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<< <i>Maybe it is just me, but I don't see a problem with the listing. The coin in question is EXACTLY what Julian says it is, ie an attractive coin in a PCGS genuine holder. The coin is in the holder for one reason and one reason only; it tells the buyer that its authenticity is guaranteed by PCGS.
If the coin were raw then yes, I believe that any cleaning should be disclosed. Since the lable in this case does it for him there is no reason to further define it in the discription. A little bit of personal responsiblity on the part of a prospective buyer goes a long way. >>
If the relevant information is already on the grading label, there is also no need to add the superlatives about the coin in the description. Note the potentially relevant positives AND negatives, or neither, in such cases. >>
Superlatives are an attempt to sell sizzle. They exist in any transaction. It is STILL the potential buyer's responsiblity to decide how much strength to give that sizzle just as it is his responsiblity to decide how much weight PGCS's opinion should carry.
I offer a full return policy, no questions asked.
I also respond promptly to any/all offers and questions.
I do not want to get into a published battle with PCGS on their opinions on specific coins.
I happen to disagree with them on this and some others. Big deal.
Will all the professional numismatists that have not disagreed with any of the TPG services, please raise their hands?
For that matter, PCGS disagrees with themselves occasionally.
I do not believe that I lose the right to my opinion because someone else has given theirs, nor do I surrender my rights to price coins as I see them.
I cannot/will not be responsible for what a hypothetical grandson might do with the coin in five years. The hypothetical grandson should come and see me.
I do not mind anyone being critical of me and try to live up to the highest numismatic standards.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Many thanx to Mark for sending me the link.
I offer a full return policy, no questions asked.
I also respond promptly to any/all offers and questions.
I do not want to get into a published battle with PCGS on their opinions on specific coins.
I happen to disagree with them on this and some others. Big deal.
Will all the professional numismatists that have not disagreed with any of the TPG services, please raise their hands?
For that matter, PCGS disagrees with themselves occasionally.
I do not believe that I lose the right to my opinion because someone else has given theirs, nor do I surrender my rights to price coins as I see them.
I cannot/will not be responsible for what a hypothetical grandson might do with the coin in five years. The hypothetical grandson should come and see me.
I do not mind anyone being critical of me and try to live up to the highest numismatic standards. >>
Hi Julian and welcome to the thread
I think there is a difference between simply disagreeing with the grading company (which, as you correctly pointed out, just about everyone does at one time or another) and doing so, without even noting what their opinion was. Fairly or unfairly, I choose to try to hold you to a higher standard than that.
And you might not be around or in business when the "hypothetical grandson"decides to sell. I have always thought that it is a very bad/dangerous idea to count on being able to re-sell a coin to one particular dealer/person, or possibly be subject to a much lower price in that person's absence. I appreciate that you always seem to conduct yourself as a gentleman.
What is cleaning? PCGS describes is as: 92 Cleaning Harsh cleaning or polishing. Surface damage due to any form of abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" covers a wide range or appearances, from a grossly polished coin to one where faint hairlines can be seen only at a particular angle or in only one area on an otherwise perfectly normal coin. This is perhaps the most frustrating of all the No Grades, because subtle cleaning is often difficult to detect in less-than-optimal grading conditions. "Dipping" (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning under this definition.
I do not agree with that definition in its entirety. There are degrees of acceptability.
It is PCGS's opinion. I value their expertise, but they are not perfect. Neither am I, but I am allowed to price my own inventory.
The hypothetical grandson can take the coin to a pawn shop, also. An error could be made by the seller as to what he gets for a coin, not just because it is in a "Genuine" holder, but actually how he chooses to sell it.
If I have wronged any customers, please contact me directly rather than publishing it for comments. I actually do not see any value in commenting on a legal listing and something that I have not done. I have answered questions about listings, mine and others, and will continue to do so.
Counterfeits, scams, are something else.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
You are correct that you have the right to disagree with PCGS opinion. Why not just re-submitt the coin or send it in for review. If it's as you believe that PCGS made a mistake, then it will likely be corrected on the second pass.
JJ
<< <i>There are many reasons why the person that bought this will likely not contact you when they go to sell. First it was an Ebay sale, the buyer likely lives a great distance from you. Second, the chances that they still have a record of where the coin was purchased 5 or 10 years from now are likely slim. Third, there is no guarentee that you will be in business then. I also have to believe that anyone who buys a common gold coin in a PCGS cleaned slab for the price of a problem free MS64 from Ebay, can't possibly be all that educated in numismatics or problem vs. problem free prices in the market place.
You are correct that you have the right to disagree with PCGS opinion. Why not just re-submitt the coin or send it in for review. If it's as you believe that PCGS made a mistake, then it will likely be corrected on the second pass.
JJ >>
I may or may not re-submit the coin, but I will still not agree to be bound by anyone else's opinion on grading. Grading is just a short hand for value in the practical sense. As I have said before, I or, for that matter, anyone is entitled to price his possessions as he chooses.
The buyer is a new buyer and is almost certainly an inexperienced numismatist.
He has not paid for the coin yet.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>I also have to believe that anyone who buys a common gold coin in a PCGS cleaned slab for the price of a problem free MS64 from Ebay, can't possibly be all that educated in numismatics or problem vs. problem free prices in the market place.
JJ >>
Or, maybe he simply agrees with Julian that the coin is actually worth what he paid. Either way, it is his money and his responsibility to spend it as he wishes.
The issue is that PCGS has gone great lengths in protecting buyers & collector from junk coins and the GEN holder is smoewhat failing to accomplish this.
This is why PCGS was the last TPG to get on the problem coin grading boat.
Here, the information is all there (I'm in no way accusing you of hiding anything), but some of it is one step removed. PCGS's opinion on a genuine coin is slightly harder to find than if the grade were right on the label. For that, I partly blame PCGS because I think the problem should be stated outright on the slab, but I digress as that can't be changed so easily. Because of this, there may be an appearance that a problem is being walked around when it is never stated explicitly.
These opinions I apply to all sellers. I believe in full and consistent disclosure, just because it seems like the right thing to do. Of course, many sellers will disagree with me, and that's their prerogative. I do think some in this thread may be directing their opinions towards your listing specifically, rather than a general one. I think that's likely because people hold you to a higher standard, which comes along with your hard-earned reputation for honesty.
I think many opinions are influenced by the exact details, and when it comes to how people think of an honest transaction, the more highly regarded the dealer, the higher the bar is set. Personally, I'd much rather have to meet the high bar than have people lower their standards because they don't expect me to be able to meet them; it takes a lot of hard work to get to the point where people have consistent and high expectations of someone.
<< <i>14 day return, free shipping certainly helps the somewhat misleading listing.
Priced high and it has the appearance of taking advantage of a newbie.
I have to admit, I was surprised who the seller was, I expected more from Julian. >>
I think some people in here are holding Julian to a standard that not many of you ever live up to. People need to remember that it's the coin that people are actually buying never the plastic and while plastic does help retain value the stem of all value must go back to the coin. If Julian had cracked the coin out and sold it as a 64 raw he would have been just as in his rights but he didn't. He let you see PCGS's opinion and let you know his and let you decide if the price is fair, what more could you want??? Well you say "newbes don't know what a 92 is", I would like to point out 1/2 or more of this board doesn't really know what a 64 is either so it's all really coded garble to the stupid.