<< <i>A name immeadiatly comes to mind as a leader of this " group ". His credentials are impeccable, his honesty undisputed, his experience vast , and his integrity is solid as a rock. Unfortunatly, he is a dealer. Mark Feld. >>
unions and honest leadership? That would be something new
Since Realone does not want the position I'd like to nominate RYK. Though I have not met him in person he seems to have the qualities that we would want for our president. I also think Longacre should take care of the legal end of things. That is if they both want the job.
<< <i>Anyone here if they knew that could make money in the field of their dreams you know would chose the hobby as their bread and butter but up unitl now the only direction that they could take was to either flip coins on the side, be an ebay seller or an actual dealer.
Maybe now with this idea started by our own trusted RYK that could change the limited choices of our members to make money in this hobby. >>
Dealers get slammed all the time for trying to earn a profit (and I'm *not* talking about dishonest dealers here), but it's acceptable to advocate for collectors making money? O-kay.
<< <i>The bottomline is this, ask yourself who do you want minding the store, us or them? >>
Seems rather divisive, no? Lots of dealers also collect coins, just as lots of collectors sell coins. Just because a dealer (or collector) doesn't act as you would prefer doesn't make him a bad guy.
Ultimately, collectors are in the driver's seat anyway as they have the absolute power to not spend their money with dealers (or other collectors, for that matter) if they choose not to. If you (in general- not directed at any specific poster) refuse to use this power to your advantage, whose fault is that?
edited to add... I didn't mean to come across as argumentative- sorry. I guess I'm just wondering- if there are all those collectors out there who need help, why don't you (in general, of course) just help them? I get questions all the time relating to the stuff I sell on eBay- not interested in buying anything, but people looking for information on something similar that they have, or some such. So I try to answer their questions as best I can or point them in the direction of somebody else who might know. You don't need an organization or union to do that- you just do it.
<< <i>When I mentioned "them" I was not eluding to dealers, I meant in general anyone who has attempted to and succeeded to rip us off and the list is long, many names come to mind such as: coin doctors, thieves, corrupt dealers/seller, and yes corrupt collectors, corrupt auction houses, third world tpg's, and many others. >>
Fair enough. But my question remains- why can't you just help people now? Why is a union needed to do it?
You're starting from the position that everybody has the same interests. I submit that's not true. Suppose some sort of "Collector's Union" is created- what if they do exactly what you want them to, but they don't address the issues *I* think are important?
<< <i>...but it has taken me for example 5 years of buying to finally stand on my own when it comes to confidence in my purchases and I am still capable of making mistakes, why does that have to be. >>
If you envision a scenario where people can buy coins at no risk whatsoever without knowing anything about coins, I predict you'll be waiting a long time.
Sorry, but IMO, at some point, eveybody needs to accept responsibility for their actions.
<< <i>I think these last two replies is a perfect example of why we Americans never come up with great ideas that are taken to fruition. After reading these i can understand why small business of America have never accomplished what they set out to do, ever! Same can be said with large businesses too. So you are telling me that us collectors can't unite, decided, execute on anything huh?
Yet we all as a group have made PCGS , and NGC a success. And we have made every coin organization like the ANA and PNG have the ability to exist.
Obvioulsy I disagree, I believe we here have some of the brightest and innovative members already, I am talking about taking it to the next level, we already ahve a captive audience available and with the fact that it is internet driven logistics can be handled in a leaner way. Talk about helping our own economy and creating some jobs. How many here have lost their job or can use extra money for their efforts. If everyone here contributed time and/or money to the cause we could move this past the idea stage. Think about one thing, your hobby which is obviously very important to you can be protected, and protected by ourselves. I don't know about you but that equals benefits to me, we all can therefore make/get something out of it. Whether it ibe a job or security in our hobby. And to think it can't be done is ridiculous. I call it REALLY PROTECTING ONE"S INVESTMENTS. My G-D the amount of time and money we already spend in this hobby would just be switched to security of our hobby. From talking the talk to walking the walk. So now some hurdles are preventing you from protecting your assets and you want to slink away. >>
You got my vote. >>
You got my vote too.
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
<< <i>Talk about helping our own economy and creating some jobs. How many here have lost their job or can use extra money for their efforts. >>
I've got to admit- this part sounds good to me. Instead of spending my time helping people with questions/concerns at no charge, I could just say "Go talk to the Collector's Union- they'll have an answer for you" and those folks could continue to collect a regular paycheck.
In fact, I'd be undermining the collective effort if I were to actually try to help people on my own, wouldn't I?
<< <i>Wow, so that is how you interpreted my single experience/example, unbelieveable. Where did I not take responsibility, I took my licks and kept on ticking, where didn't I take responsibility. >>
I didn't say you didn't.
<< <i> My point and the one you missed is that wouldn't it be nice if there were a group that we could count on to look after our interests? >>
My point and the one you missed is why don't people *right now* help out people who need help?
<< <i>Wouldn't it be nice if collectors didn't always have to take it in the shorts. >>
That would be great. Utopia on earth.
<< <i>how many people do we lose due to the outright corruption permeanating the hobby. >>
I don't know.
<< <i>If you don't think every moment of the day someone is not trying to take advantage of me you go t your head in the sand. >>
I'm pretty sure I never made that point.
<< <i>Why has it taken our hosts solong to file a lawsuit and what will the results of their actions be and when wehn will it have some effect. >>
Because the people are claimed to have violated PCGS's policy? Who else other than PCGS do you think is responsible for advocating for the company?
<< <i>We should all take some responsibilty and band together to stand up for ourselves and not have to rely on Laura Sperber or John Albanese and PCGS to attempt to level the playing field. >>
As I noted before, I take responsibility for helping people as I can. I spent 20 minutes on the phone and doing research today helping a lady with a question she had about something in her posssesion (and which will, with 100% probability not result in any income for me) that she didn't know anything about Does that count?
<< <i>You said what I obviously didn't say well enough, we should be taking some responsibility for our actions in this hobby and that is exactly why would should organize for the common good of the hobby! >>
The problem here is that not everybody has the same priorities. Suppose I join your Collectors Union, but they spend time on stuff I don't think is important? You don't think everybody has the exact same interests, do you?
<< <i>How do you separate a collector from a dealer? There's a massive gray area. >>
No kidding. Reading the posts here, self-identified collectors comment about trying to get as much as they can at resale, but any dealer admitting to that would get run out of town on a rail.
<< <i>The dealer is no the enemy, only those individuals that hurt the cause are. >>
Here, you and I are in agreement.
<< <i>This coin doctor problem isn't going to go away, it may look like it is being handled but it is barely cutting the surface. >>
I'm afraid that as long as people are willing to pay significant amounts of money for incremental imcreases in grade, this will continue to be an issue.
<< <i>Why is security at most shows weak at best. Why should dealers be easily targeted. >>
Are dealers really being targeted *at* shows? Or is it away from shows? I'm just asking...
<< <i>nothing wrong with making a profit but the hobby is much more than just that, it is an institution or at least it should be and needs better guidance and management. >>
I will say I am less than optomistic that you can set up an organization that will continue to provide better "guidance and management" than can be had, should people take these matters into their own hands and help the people they each know individually.
edited to add.. shouldn't the ANA be doing this sort of stuff?
<< <i>helping dealers not be targets at, or around or away from shows is the number one priority. >>
Have dealers suffered losses *at* any shows recently? I can see helping "at shows" (and I think shows do this), but "around" or "away from" is a whole different story. "Around" where, and how far away can you provide security? The more you provide, the more it will cost, and who will pay for it? A collectors union? Probably not. At some point, each dealer (and collector, for that matter) will have to take responsibility for his own security. I'm not trying to be overly negative here, but I don't really see any practical alternative.
<< <i>MR Potatoe Head, I believe an organization can be multifaceted, multi-dimensional, multi-influencing, multi-reaching and can satisfy multiple interests of our own. When you have the numbers that we have, the common interests that we have, and the same interests that we all have and their are many all under one roof. Finally we could give the YN's much much more to promote the hobby and and more importantly the future interests and growth. A non profit hindged on helping the hobby by looking out after the interests of the collector is what we all should want and expect. I feel things are very oranized and onesided out in the real world where the collectors are separated and disenfranchised, our time has comet o finally band together in our own group in our own interests for our own benefit. What do we have to lose, the amount that we are spending on coins is huge, the amount we are throwing away is equally huge as a percentage and the amount that i believe every collector could contribute as a percentage is equally huge.
Look I realize it doesn't seem like i have the support at this time for such a lofty goal, but think about it, it si something we need to do. This coin doctor problem isn't going to go away, it may look like it is being handled but it is barely cutting the surface. Why is security at most shows weak at best. Why should dealers be easily targeted. You know it is as if they have a target on their back, they need help, they could use our help, we out number them, why can't we help with the security. We have great minds here, RWB a great and gifted research, Capitain Henway a great numismatist, Firstmint another great researcher the list goes on. If it weren't for these guys writing on the boards out of the kindness of their heart we would be hurting for information that we desperately need and want. We should promote this study of info, what happens when these fine gentleman are no longer able to continue their work, do we rely on the ANA, or the Smithsonian. There is so much that we can do. David Bowers is a great example, he has great knowldge but he is more a gentleman who is fueled by profits, he doesn't ever come on this board and is impossible to contact for info. If you want youyour investments to be sound and to grow we need to make sure we as an institution grow too and build upon what we have because it appears to be fleeting at best. I want this fine and honorable hobby to be flourish and be around forever and not be only shaped or directed by a few interests or rely only on those who are in it for a profit. nothing wrong with making a profit but the hobby is much more than just that, it is an institution or at least it should be and needs better guidance and management. >>
<< <i>I don't see how this is different than the ANA. >>
I think, rather than trying to create a whole new organization, the people who want a collectors union should rally the troops and "take over" the ANA for that purpose. If you can't get enough people to support you in that, I doubt a new group would have any better chance of success.
<< <i>..........this is not a joking matter , and I would suggest the hecklers stay away from this very important post . >>
I wasn't making jokes. I can't ask questions or express opinions? So it's going to be a "Sit down, shut up and do as you're told" sort of a deal? Where do I sign up?
edited to add... I'm willing to be convinced, but I'd need to see some specifics of how this would work. "Wouldn't it be great if..." doesn't count- sorry.
Workers’ Unions and Trade Associations usually come into being in response to a pattern of abuse or discrimination. Although collectors occasionally make the collective decision to not patronize a specific dealer, or not buy a certain product (“ballistic rolls”), such things seem to be responses to temporary conditions.
<< <i>I think these last two replies is a perfect example of why we Americans never come up with great ideas that are taken to fruition. After reading these i can understand why small business of America have never accomplished what they set out to do, ever! Same can be said with large businesses too. So you are telling me that us collectors can't unite, decided, execute on anything huh?
Real I can think of a couple of small businesses that did alright...Apple & Facebook. Oh, and there were some Founding Fathers that created a Union against all odds and fought an empire with a great navy. America is the place where ideas can come together without gov't and religious persecution (currently pending.) That little country has had a pretty good track record for ideas and innovation...could say it's been exceptional. So I'm confused as to what American small and large businesses "never accomplished what they set out to do, ever!"
RYK Can you please list the grievances? I think I may be representative of a group of collectors that have persued the hobby for decades, sometimes casually, sometimes with vigor and sometimes not at all due to "life" and do not understand the behind-the-scenes posturing as some here understand being in the biz and/or a high(er) roller. So how does this proposed union affect little ol' me?
To make something like the proposed organization work , the same passions the collector has for his/her coins
would have to be channeled into the " Union"
Many a club has been formed and then latter abandoned due to waning interest and politics .......
Some new perspective on the "Union" would have to be incorporated and much , much thought and debate would need to go into it's formation .
There are many pitfalls that await such a movement .
One way to tap into the passions of each is to have a "Congress" made up of specialists in their series -
..there is no reason whats so ever that we could not all use the blue print and the principles laid out by our Forefathers , many of which are represented on our coinage and bills .
And it would be a massive shot in the arm if we could somehow use a sight such as this PCGS Board instead of creating a new website, as the monetary costs and expenses
could and should be held to the barest minimum .
I propose representatives from each significant series step forth and pledge their participation and will to the new " Union"
.............I pledge to be on the Franklin committee , and I nominate any feller or gal that shares in the passion .
I will also throw out a name for the new " Union " ,
C.O.I.N. : " Collectors Organized In Numismatics "
.........any groundswell movement needs support and commitment ; and I again would ask any hecklers to practice restraint
This would be a tough thing to do. Especially in the area of Law, liabilities, etc. While I agree that something is needed to make collectors more unified and effective at facilitating positive changes, I think it would take major money backing to come in full force. Starting small in some effective way might be a good start. Let dominoes fall, and see what happens.
I'll add that I am have considerable expertise on Grading Franklins. Probably more than PawPaul
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>And it would be a massive shot in the arm if we could somehow use a sight such as this PCGS Board instead of creating a new website, as the monetary costs and expenses
could and should be held to the barest minimum . >>
I'd think you'd be better off having your own website. If you use the PCGS site, you'll be perceived as part of PCGS. What if one of your members has a dispute with PCGS?
Thanks to quartercollector (Tom) for considering me in a leadership role, but I do not have the time, talent, or interest. I have vision for what is possible but lack the desire to make it so. I would support with ideas those are interested and financially to help things get off the ground.
For renman, the advantages to the average collector might include discounts on TPG submissions, better rates with the auction houses, perhaps better pricing with a select group of "preferred dealers", a private selling/auction network, and a larger voice if you feel like you have been wronged by the numismatic establishment. Imagine getting 107% of hammer at Heritage instead of 95%, for example, just because you are in the same association as guys like TahoeDale and Longacre. Finally, it's really up to the membership to decide what to do with the organization.
As for grievances, I do not think it is wise to start something like this on a negative note.
I also think that using the PCGS message board in lieu of a website is amateurish and would likely be frowned upon by the host (and rightfully so, IMO).
Edit: "Union" is perhaps not the right word to use here, because of some of the negative connotations (with apologies to my friends who are union members). Association, fraternity, buying group, and even club are better terms. It's not so much what you call it--it's how it can benefit collectors.
<< <i>I was sorely disappointed to hear of the rude treatment inflicted on our fellow forum member RYK at the St. Louis show.
Perhaps if we organized ourselves together, beginning w/this virtual community, the power of the Collective Forum™ could be used to prevent such shocking behavior in the future. >>
I would stop collecting or selling coins before I joined a socialist workers party (a.k.a. Union). Give it up, this is America not Europe. Geez!
<< <i>".....the "force" of this one in the mighty, mighty Franklin ......strong it is " - Yoda >>
Heh, thanks, from you that is indeed a compliment.
Pawpaul is one of the few master Franklin collectors that I know of. I am a bit unsettled with some of the new, so called, Franklin experts...they just don't seem to have the eye. Either that, or they just spew bull to capture newbies.
It could be that all of us old timers have all the primo pieces, and there just isnt enough left in the market to educate folks on the merits of a truly nice coin.
Either way, Him, Frank Zappa (Bushmaster), Ronyahski are a few that are all perfectly suited to render excellent jusdgement on frankies.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>I was sorely disappointed to hear of the rude treatment inflicted on our fellow forum member RYK at the St. Louis show.
Perhaps if we organized ourselves together, beginning w/this virtual community, the power of the Collective Forum™ could be used to prevent such shocking behavior in the future. >>
I would stop collecting or selling coins before I joined a socialist workers party (a.k.a. Union). Give it up, this is America not Europe. Geez! >>
many a "Union" in their infancy were frowned on and ridiculed by forces from the dark side ..........
<< <i>I think these last two replies is a perfect example of why we Americans never come up with great ideas that are taken to fruition. After reading these i can understand why small business of America have never accomplished what they set out to do, ever! Same can be said with large businesses too. So you are telling me that us collectors can't unite, decided, execute on anything huh?
Real I can think of a couple of small businesses that did alright...Apple & Facebook. Oh, and there were some Founding Fathers that created a Union against all odds and fought an empire with a great navy. America is the place where ideas can come together without gov't and religious persecution (currently pending.) That little country has had a pretty good track record for ideas and innovation...could say it's been exceptional. So I'm confused as to what American small and large businesses "never accomplished what they set out to do, ever!"
Develop a charter. A vision. Then divide and conquer with small steps. Nothing is offputting as someone who says they are going to make huge, broadsweeping changes to something. Anybody who has ever had any meaningful experience in getting things accomplished know that those claims are utter nonsense, and the cans of worms that they will open will be many. We see it all the time with elected officials.
Also, do some research on why "organizations" fail. How they loose their founding principles, etc.
One aspect of this is that if dealers get involved, you lose your identity.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>A tear of joy came to Longacre's eye as he read this thread. It is incumbent on the more seasoned veterans to care for the newbie collectors in the hobby. In fact, there should be some financial assistance provided by those at the top of the collecting spectrum to those at the lower rungs. We should share the wealth among collectors, both literally and figuratively. Where do I send my union dues, sisters and brothers? >>
To The KKK, Birmingham, Alabama!
JT
It is health that is real wealth, not pieces of gold and silver. Gandhi.
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>I was sorely disappointed to hear of the rude treatment inflicted on our fellow forum member RYK at the St. Louis show.
Perhaps if we organized ourselves together, beginning w/this virtual community, the power of the Collective Forum™ could be used to prevent such shocking behavior in the future. >>
I would stop collecting or selling coins before I joined a socialist workers party (a.k.a. Union). Give it up, this is America not Europe. Geez! >>
many a "Union" in their infancy were frowned on and ridiculed by forces from the dark side .......... >>
Comments
<< <i>A name immeadiatly comes to mind as a leader of this " group ". His credentials are impeccable, his honesty undisputed, his experience vast , and his integrity is solid as a rock. Unfortunatly, he is a dealer. Mark Feld. >>
unions and honest leadership? That would be something new
Tom
<< <i>Anyone here if they knew that could make money in the field of their dreams you know would chose the hobby as their bread and butter but up unitl now the only direction that they could take was to either flip coins on the side, be an ebay seller or an actual dealer.
Maybe now with this idea started by our own trusted RYK that could change the limited choices of our members to make money in this hobby. >>
Dealers get slammed all the time for trying to earn a profit (and I'm *not* talking about dishonest dealers here), but it's acceptable to advocate for collectors making money? O-kay.
<< <i>The bottomline is this, ask yourself who do you want minding the store, us or them? >>
Seems rather divisive, no? Lots of dealers also collect coins, just as lots of collectors sell coins. Just because a dealer (or collector) doesn't act as you would prefer doesn't make him a bad guy.
Ultimately, collectors are in the driver's seat anyway as they have the absolute power to not spend their money with dealers (or other collectors, for that matter) if they choose not to. If you (in general- not directed at any specific poster) refuse to use this power to your advantage, whose fault is that?
edited to add... I didn't mean to come across as argumentative- sorry. I guess I'm just wondering- if there are all those collectors out there who need help, why don't you (in general, of course) just help them? I get questions all the time relating to the stuff I sell on eBay- not interested in buying anything, but people looking for information on something similar that they have, or some such. So I try to answer their questions as best I can or point them in the direction of somebody else who might know. You don't need an organization or union to do that- you just do it.
<< <i>When I mentioned "them" I was not eluding to dealers, I meant in general anyone who has attempted to and succeeded to rip us off and the list is long, many names come to mind such as:
coin doctors, thieves, corrupt dealers/seller, and yes corrupt collectors, corrupt auction houses, third world tpg's, and many others. >>
Fair enough. But my question remains- why can't you just help people now? Why is a union needed to do it?
<< <i>we need a unified voice, >>
You're starting from the position that everybody has the same interests. I submit that's not true. Suppose some sort of "Collector's Union" is created- what if they do exactly what you want them to, but they don't address the issues *I* think are important?
<< <i>...but it has taken me for example 5 years of buying to finally stand on my own when it comes to confidence in my purchases and I am still capable of making mistakes, why does that have to be. >>
If you envision a scenario where people can buy coins at no risk whatsoever without knowing anything about coins, I predict you'll be waiting a long time.
Sorry, but IMO, at some point, eveybody needs to accept responsibility for their actions.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think these last two replies is a perfect example of why we Americans never come up with great ideas that are taken to fruition. After reading these i can understand why small business of America have never accomplished what they set out to do, ever! Same can be said with large businesses too. So you are telling me that us collectors can't unite, decided, execute on anything huh?
Yet we all as a group have made PCGS , and NGC a success. And we have made every coin organization like the ANA and PNG have the ability to exist.
Obvioulsy I disagree, I believe we here have some of the brightest and innovative members already, I am talking about taking it to the next level, we already ahve a captive audience available and with the fact that it is internet driven logistics can be handled in a leaner way. Talk about helping our own economy and creating some jobs. How many here have lost their job or can use extra money for their efforts. If everyone here contributed time and/or money to the cause we could move this past the idea stage. Think about one thing, your hobby which is obviously very important to you can be protected, and protected by ourselves. I don't know about you but that equals benefits to me, we all can therefore make/get something out of it. Whether it ibe a job or security in our hobby. And to think it can't be done is ridiculous. I call it REALLY PROTECTING ONE"S INVESTMENTS. My G-D the amount of time and money we already spend in this hobby would just be switched to security of our hobby. From talking the talk to walking the walk. So now some hurdles are preventing you from protecting your assets and you want to slink away. >>
You got my vote. >>
You got my vote too.
<< <i>Talk about helping our own economy and creating some jobs. How many here have lost their job or can use extra money for their efforts. >>
I've got to admit- this part sounds good to me. Instead of spending my time helping people with questions/concerns at no charge, I could just say "Go talk to the Collector's Union- they'll have an answer for you" and those folks could continue to collect a regular paycheck.
In fact, I'd be undermining the collective effort if I were to actually try to help people on my own, wouldn't I?
<< <i>Wow, so that is how you interpreted my single experience/example, unbelieveable. Where did I not take responsibility, I took my licks and kept on ticking, where didn't I take responsibility. >>
I didn't say you didn't.
<< <i> My point and the one you missed is that wouldn't it be nice if there were a group that we could count on to look after our interests? >>
My point and the one you missed is why don't people *right now* help out people who need help?
<< <i>Wouldn't it be nice if collectors didn't always have to take it in the shorts. >>
That would be great. Utopia on earth.
<< <i>how many people do we lose due to the outright corruption permeanating the hobby. >>
I don't know.
<< <i>If you don't think every moment of the day someone is not trying to take advantage of me you go t your head in the sand. >>
I'm pretty sure I never made that point.
<< <i>Why has it taken our hosts solong to file a lawsuit and what will the results of their actions be and when wehn will it have some effect. >>
Because the people are claimed to have violated PCGS's policy? Who else other than PCGS do you think is responsible for advocating for the company?
<< <i>We should all take some responsibilty and band together to stand up for ourselves and not have to rely on Laura Sperber or John Albanese and PCGS to attempt to level the playing field. >>
As I noted before, I take responsibility for helping people as I can. I spent 20 minutes on the phone and doing research today helping a lady with a question she had about something in her posssesion (and which will, with 100% probability not result in any income for me) that she didn't know anything about Does that count?
<< <i>You said what I obviously didn't say well enough, we should be taking some responsibility for our actions in this hobby and that is exactly why would should organize for the common good of the hobby! >>
The problem here is that not everybody has the same priorities. Suppose I join your Collectors Union, but they spend time on stuff I don't think is important? You don't think everybody has the exact same interests, do you?
<< <i>How do you separate a collector from a dealer? There's a massive gray area. >>
No kidding. Reading the posts here, self-identified collectors comment about trying to get as much as they can at resale, but any dealer admitting to that would get run out of town on a rail.
<< <i>The dealer is no the enemy, only those individuals that hurt the cause are. >>
Here, you and I are in agreement.
<< <i>This coin doctor problem isn't going to go away, it may look like it is being handled but it is barely cutting the surface. >>
I'm afraid that as long as people are willing to pay significant amounts of money for incremental imcreases in grade, this will continue to be an issue.
<< <i>Why is security at most shows weak at best. Why should dealers be easily targeted. >>
Are dealers really being targeted *at* shows? Or is it away from shows? I'm just asking...
<< <i>nothing wrong with making a profit but the hobby is much more than just that, it is an institution or at least it should be and needs better guidance and management. >>
I will say I am less than optomistic that you can set up an organization that will continue to provide better "guidance and management" than can be had, should people take these matters into their own hands and help the people they each know individually.
edited to add.. shouldn't the ANA be doing this sort of stuff?
<< <i>helping dealers not be targets at, or around or away from shows is the number one priority. >>
Have dealers suffered losses *at* any shows recently? I can see helping "at shows" (and I think shows do this), but "around" or "away from" is a whole different story. "Around" where, and how far away can you provide security? The more you provide, the more it will cost, and who will pay for it? A collectors union? Probably not. At some point, each dealer (and collector, for that matter) will have to take responsibility for his own security. I'm not trying to be overly negative here, but I don't really see any practical alternative.
<< <i>MR Potatoe Head,
I believe an organization can be multifaceted, multi-dimensional, multi-influencing, multi-reaching and can satisfy multiple interests of our own. When you have the numbers that we have, the common interests that we have, and the same interests that we all have and their are many all under one roof. Finally we could give the YN's much much more to promote the hobby and and more importantly the future interests and growth. A non profit hindged on helping the hobby by looking out after the interests of the collector is what we all should want and expect. I feel things are very oranized and onesided out in the real world where the collectors are separated and disenfranchised, our time has comet o finally band together in our own group in our own interests for our own benefit. What do we have to lose, the amount that we are spending on coins is huge, the amount we are throwing away is equally huge as a percentage and the amount that i believe every collector could contribute as a percentage is equally huge.
Look I realize it doesn't seem like i have the support at this time for such a lofty goal, but think about it, it si something we need to do. This coin doctor problem isn't going to go away, it may look like it is being handled but it is barely cutting the surface. Why is security at most shows weak at best. Why should dealers be easily targeted. You know it is as if they have a target on their back, they need help, they could use our help, we out number them, why can't we help with the security. We have great minds here, RWB a great and gifted research, Capitain Henway a great numismatist, Firstmint another great researcher the list goes on. If it weren't for these guys writing on the boards out of the kindness of their heart we would be hurting for information that we desperately need and want. We should promote this study of info, what happens when these fine gentleman are no longer able to continue their work, do we rely on the ANA, or the Smithsonian. There is so much that we can do. David Bowers is a great example, he has great knowldge but he is more a gentleman who is fueled by profits, he doesn't ever come on this board and is impossible to contact for info. If you want youyour investments to be sound and to grow we need to make sure we as an institution grow too and build upon what we have because it appears to be fleeting at best. I want this fine and honorable hobby to be flourish and be around forever and not be only shaped or directed by a few interests or rely only on those who are in it for a profit. nothing wrong with making a profit but the hobby is much more than just that, it is an institution or at least it should be and needs better guidance and management. >>
I don't see how this is different than the ANA.
<< <i>I don't see how this is different than the ANA. >>
I think, rather than trying to create a whole new organization, the people who want a collectors union should rally the troops and "take over" the ANA for that purpose. If you can't get enough people to support you in that, I doubt a new group would have any better chance of success.
JMO- I could be wrong.
<< <i>But my contention is that the security at shows is typically ineffective. >>
Are you saying that the recent reported thefts that have occurred away from the shows are related to the security at the shows?
<< <i>How often has the ANA helped you, and how? >>
Not at all, as far as I know. How much more will a collectors union?
<< <i> if I can't get to Co the ANA is practically useless >>
Every organization has to be somewhere. And wherever it is, it won't be where everybody is. Hard to get around that.
If such an organization could be formed , the ideal would be no due's ; maybe a one time membership fee -
the rewards and benefits from being a member should be so significant that most would gladly pay the 100$ initiation .
...a huge egg to crack , to form such a group : but the potential is there for most to see
<< <i>..........this is not a joking matter , and I would suggest the hecklers stay away from this very important post . >>
I wasn't making jokes. I can't ask questions or express opinions? So it's going to be a "Sit down, shut up and do as you're told" sort of a deal? Where do I sign up?
edited to add... I'm willing to be convinced, but I'd need to see some specifics of how this would work. "Wouldn't it be great if..." doesn't count- sorry.
I don't think you were one of the hecklers
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>I think these last two replies is a perfect example of why we Americans never come up with great ideas that are taken to fruition. After reading these i can understand why small business of America have never accomplished what they set out to do, ever! Same can be said with large businesses too. So you are telling me that us collectors can't unite, decided, execute on anything huh?
Real
I can think of a couple of small businesses that did alright...Apple & Facebook. Oh, and there were some Founding Fathers that created a Union against all odds and fought an empire with a great navy. America is the place where ideas can come together without gov't and religious persecution (currently pending.) That little country has had a pretty good track record for ideas and innovation...could say it's been exceptional. So I'm confused as to what American small and large businesses "never accomplished what they set out to do, ever!"
RYK
Can you please list the grievances? I think I may be representative of a group of collectors that have persued the hobby for decades, sometimes casually, sometimes with vigor and sometimes not at all due to "life" and do not understand the behind-the-scenes posturing as some here understand being in the biz and/or a high(er) roller. So how does this proposed union affect little ol' me?
r95
<< <i>Mr. Spud ,
I don't think you were one of the hecklers
Sorry about that. Thanks for the clarification.
would have to be channeled into the " Union"
Many a club has been formed and then latter abandoned due to waning interest and politics .......
Some new perspective on the "Union" would have to be incorporated and much , much thought and debate would need to go into it's formation .
There are many pitfalls that await such a movement .
One way to tap into the passions of each is to have a "Congress" made up of specialists in their series -
..there is no reason whats so ever that we could not all use the blue print and the principles laid out by our Forefathers , many of which are represented on our coinage and bills .
And it would be a massive shot in the arm if we could somehow use a sight such as this PCGS Board instead of creating a new website, as the monetary costs and expenses
could and should be held to the barest minimum .
I propose representatives from each significant series step forth and pledge their participation and will to the new " Union"
.............I pledge to be on the Franklin committee , and I nominate any feller or gal that shares in the passion .
I will also throw out a name for the new " Union " ,
C.O.I.N. : " Collectors Organized In Numismatics "
.........any groundswell movement needs support and commitment ; and I again would ask any hecklers to practice restraint
While I agree that something is needed to make collectors more unified and effective at facilitating positive changes, I think it would take major money backing to come in full force.
Starting small in some effective way might be a good start. Let dominoes fall, and see what happens.
I'll add that I am have considerable expertise on Grading Franklins. Probably more than PawPaul
<< <i>And it would be a massive shot in the arm if we could somehow use a sight such as this PCGS Board instead of creating a new website, as the monetary costs and expenses
could and should be held to the barest minimum . >>
I'd think you'd be better off having your own website. If you use the PCGS site, you'll be perceived as part of PCGS. What if one of your members has a dispute with PCGS?
Not naysaying- just saying...
For renman, the advantages to the average collector might include discounts on TPG submissions, better rates with the auction houses, perhaps better pricing with a select group of "preferred dealers", a private selling/auction network, and a larger voice if you feel like you have been wronged by the numismatic establishment. Imagine getting 107% of hammer at Heritage instead of 95%, for example, just because you are in the same association as guys like TahoeDale and Longacre. Finally, it's really up to the membership to decide what to do with the organization.
As for grievances, I do not think it is wise to start something like this on a negative note.
I also think that using the PCGS message board in lieu of a website is amateurish and would likely be frowned upon by the host (and rightfully so, IMO).
Edit: "Union" is perhaps not the right word to use here, because of some of the negative connotations (with apologies to my friends who are union members). Association, fraternity, buying group, and even club are better terms. It's not so much what you call it--it's how it can benefit collectors.
<< <i>I was sorely disappointed to hear of the rude treatment inflicted on our fellow forum member RYK at the St. Louis show.
Perhaps if we organized ourselves together, beginning w/this virtual community, the power of the Collective Forum™ could be used to prevent such shocking behavior in the future. >>
I would stop collecting or selling coins before I joined a socialist workers party (a.k.a. Union). Give it up, this is America not Europe. Geez!
PCGS is powerful, well known , and widely respected ; I can think of no better entity then to allie forces with
if you like the potential of this thread , then follow my lead
<< <i>".....the "force" of this one in the mighty, mighty Franklin ......strong it is " - Yoda >>
Heh, thanks, from you that is indeed a compliment.
Pawpaul is one of the few master Franklin collectors that I know of. I am a bit unsettled with some of the new, so called, Franklin experts...they just don't seem to have the eye.
Either that, or they just spew bull to capture newbies.
It could be that all of us old timers have all the primo pieces, and there just isnt enough left in the market to educate folks on the merits of a truly nice coin.
Either way, Him, Frank Zappa (Bushmaster), Ronyahski are a few that are all perfectly suited to render excellent jusdgement on frankies.
<< <i>
<< <i>I was sorely disappointed to hear of the rude treatment inflicted on our fellow forum member RYK at the St. Louis show.
Perhaps if we organized ourselves together, beginning w/this virtual community, the power of the Collective Forum™ could be used to prevent such shocking behavior in the future. >>
I would stop collecting or selling coins before I joined a socialist workers party (a.k.a. Union). Give it up, this is America not Europe. Geez! >>
many a "Union" in their infancy were frowned on and ridiculed by forces from the dark side ..........
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think these last two replies is a perfect example of why we Americans never come up with great ideas that are taken to fruition. After reading these i can understand why small business of America have never accomplished what they set out to do, ever! Same can be said with large businesses too. So you are telling me that us collectors can't unite, decided, execute on anything huh?
Real
I can think of a couple of small businesses that did alright...Apple & Facebook. Oh, and there were some Founding Fathers that created a Union against all odds and fought an empire with a great navy. America is the place where ideas can come together without gov't and religious persecution (currently pending.) That little country has had a pretty good track record for ideas and innovation...could say it's been exceptional. So I'm confused as to what American small and large businesses "never accomplished what they set out to do, ever!"
r95 >>
Renman,
I was being scarcastic!
I missed that one comrade.
A famous Britt said " We have nothing to fear but fear itself "
..........had the King of England been successful in squashing the "rebellion" of a certain new " Union "
.....there would have been no United States of America to stop Hitler from bombing England off the face of the earth .........
let's not stifle a movement that one day may prove to be our salvation .........
Anybody who has ever had any meaningful experience in getting things accomplished know that those claims are utter nonsense, and the cans of worms that they will open will be many.
We see it all the time with elected officials.
Also, do some research on why "organizations" fail. How they loose their founding principles, etc.
One aspect of this is that if dealers get involved, you lose your identity.
<< <i>A tear of joy came to Longacre's eye as he read this thread. It is incumbent on the more seasoned veterans to care for the newbie collectors in the hobby. In fact, there should be some financial assistance provided by those at the top of the collecting spectrum to those at the lower rungs. We should share the wealth among collectors, both literally and figuratively. Where do I send my union dues, sisters and brothers? >>
To The KKK, Birmingham, Alabama!
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I was sorely disappointed to hear of the rude treatment inflicted on our fellow forum member RYK at the St. Louis show.
Perhaps if we organized ourselves together, beginning w/this virtual community, the power of the Collective Forum™ could be used to prevent such shocking behavior in the future. >>
I would stop collecting or selling coins before I joined a socialist workers party (a.k.a. Union). Give it up, this is America not Europe. Geez! >>
many a "Union" in their infancy were frowned on and ridiculed by forces from the dark side .......... >>
Like SEIU?
100.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.