Kevin Flynn, on 1964-D Peace Dollars: "I believe there are 10 to 11 specimens which escaped the
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
I couldn't have imagined that I would start a thread about 1964-D Peace Dollars. But the post below, by numismatic author Kevin Flynn, which appeared in a different thread today, certainly caught my attention, and I thought it was worth repeating:
<<I believe there are 10 to 11 specimens which escaped the melting pots.
I believe 1 went to Johnson, and Ladybird Johnson had it years later, did not want to give it to the Smithsonian
as she feared it would be melted. There is a photo of a new 64D peace dollar being handed to Johnson.
There were also two groups of 5 believed to have escaped, the first group was a set of perfect coins, no
bag marks, early strikes.
The second group occurred when the normal practice of giving each employee the opportunity to purchase
5 specimens after they were struck, when told to return, one of the employees switched with 1934D coins.
This second group was brought to the 1972 ANA, and sold for $5,000 per coin. When reseaching this subject,
I had several different dealers from different parts of the country write me to state they saw them in 1972.
I believe a specimen, if sold in 2000, would have brought $100,000. If sold today would bring about $2-3 million.
On the other hand, with some of the crazy money being spent by a few individuals where money is no obstacle,
this could be higher.
Kevin
Kevin J Flynn >>
<<I believe there are 10 to 11 specimens which escaped the melting pots.
I believe 1 went to Johnson, and Ladybird Johnson had it years later, did not want to give it to the Smithsonian
as she feared it would be melted. There is a photo of a new 64D peace dollar being handed to Johnson.
There were also two groups of 5 believed to have escaped, the first group was a set of perfect coins, no
bag marks, early strikes.
The second group occurred when the normal practice of giving each employee the opportunity to purchase
5 specimens after they were struck, when told to return, one of the employees switched with 1934D coins.
This second group was brought to the 1972 ANA, and sold for $5,000 per coin. When reseaching this subject,
I had several different dealers from different parts of the country write me to state they saw them in 1972.
I believe a specimen, if sold in 2000, would have brought $100,000. If sold today would bring about $2-3 million.
On the other hand, with some of the crazy money being spent by a few individuals where money is no obstacle,
this could be higher.
Kevin
Kevin J Flynn >>
0
Comments
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
You....you....instigator you!!!!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
so, IF you had one and came out with it, you would have to have documents to prove that it came from the Johnson's, or else you'd be in a heap of touble?
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
If, however, only one or even as few as six or less 1964 Peace dollars surfaced and somehow became legal, they'd be among the most valuable coins in the world.
And, kudos to anyone who saved any of them from being melted down. Maybe some 600 or 800 years from now, long after the United Earth Government declares all pre-Singularity coinage as legal to own, we will be able to see these coins in museums or private collections, whereas the government of today would just as soon see them destroyed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Interesting. Would enjoy seeing this photo. Could not find it in the LBJ library.
I've recently heard that a former president of the ANA knows who possesses one and that two were seen in a safety deposit box in the late 1960s in a northerly western state.
Seems to be turning out like pieces of the True Cross.
Time to read "Baudolino".
Most intriguing to me is a legal issue that would arise if evidence surfaced confirming that the mint allowed employees to purchase one or more 1964 D Peace Dollars, that employees purchased same [paying $5.00 to obtain 5 of the new Peace Dollars], that mint a day or so later requested that the employees return the dollars that they had purchased and that one or more employees refused to comply.
Multiple legal issues could arise that would all be centered around the issue of:
What power or legal right does/should the government [as the government and/or as an employer] have over one of its citizens/employees to require that the citizen/employee return to the government an item lawfully purchased by the citizen/employee that would be the citizen/employee's PRIVATE PROPERTY?
Let the lawsuit begin I say.
<< <i>Sorry, but hearsay and speculation doesn't convince me there are any real 1964-D dollars out there. >>
Me neither.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry, but hearsay and speculation doesn't convince me there are any real 1964-D dollars out there. >>
Me neither. >>
+1
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The 1964-D Peace dollar has been the Holy Grail of numismatists. Does a specimen exist, and if so, where is it? Maryland dealer Bob Cohen spent a great deal of time and advertising money in the 1960s and 1970s trying to track one down, with no success.
During the course of writing this book, I was told that a qualified professional numismatist had seen one, and that Harry J. Forman knew who that person was. Harry said that he had heard that [had seen one. But, I hadn't, so the rumor came 'round full circle!
In a conversation, Marion Russell told me she believed that one was given to President Lyndon Johnson in 1965, and is probably with the Johnson papers. This information came to her from Mint Director Eva Adams. Another source, believed by me to be reliable, stated that another 1964-D dollar was sold by Eva Adams to a leading eastern numismatist. Perhaps in some future year, a 1964-D will emerge to delight a new generation of numismatists,
An interesting narrative: Thomas K. DeLorey recalled a situation which took place when he was senior authenticator at the American Numismatic Association Certification Service at ANA Headquarters in Colorado Springs: (Letter to the author, September 14, 1992.)
While I was at ANACS I talked with a visitor who saw the balance scale in the ANA Headquarters rotunda (where the scale was in the days before the addition was put on the build-ing) and said that he used to use one of them up at the Denver Mint. I asked him if he had worked there when the 1964 Peace dollars were struck, and if it were true that employees were allowed to buy them on the day they were struck.
He said he had, and that he remembered that the word was passed that any employee who wished could buy two of them from the cashier on the way out. He didn't bother, but several people did. The next day as he was coming in, all employees were told that anybody who had bought them and didn't return them would be fired. Many did, but one guy he knew said he had spent them in a bar on the way home the night before, and did not lose his job. The man was retired when I spoke to him, and had no reason to lie.
<< <i>he had spent them in a bar >>
I guess they might be in a jar with worthless Hoboken Nickels.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry, but hearsay and speculation doesn't convince me there are any real 1964-D dollars out there. >>
Me neither. >>
+1 >>
I have no desire to convince anyone that they exist.
<< Nor do I,>>
<<Me neither.>>
You know there have got to be a few of those out there, too!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Peace Dollars is not a popular series.
The 1964-D isn't as well known (although certainly gaining popularity) as other $1m+ coins
It is essentially a modern issue
The legality of ownership would immediately be questioned, and a sale would take years (i.e. the 10 1933 SG DE's)
Funny how Harry Forman told Bob Cohen that he [Forman] saw Dave Bowers looking at one in 1973, when Dave Bowers says he never saw one. That's how rumors get started, Bowers says in a footnote.
~ Instructions to Baudolino
Even if Ladybird Johnson has one in her hands, it might have been returned. If not, no way they would sell it out of a presidential library!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>I agree - Show me a picture of one!
Funny how Harry Forman told Bob Cohen that he [Forman] saw Dave Bowers looking at one in 1973, when Dave Bowers says he never saw one. That's how rumors get started, Bowers says in a footnote. >>
There weren't photos published of the Langbord 1933 Saints...at least not until a few years ago. That obviously didn't mean the coins didn't exist.
As a non-owner of such a coin, I can easily understand why fellow non-owners call for pictures. At the same time, I can just as easily understand why an owner wouldn't show those pictures, just to satisfy us or (try to) prove that the coins exist.
*************************************************************************************************************
The '64 Dollar Question
Ed Reiter - September 9, 1998
Inflation can be insidious, eroding our net worth with the stealth and inevitability of a wave breaking softly on the shore. It also can be all too painfully obvious and emphatic, slashing the value of our assets before our eyes.
I was not around for the hyperinflation in Germany following World War I, when people paid for bread and milk with suitcases full of paper money. As a member of the generation born on the eve of World War II, I can, however, recall another dramatic example of big-time inflation right here at home -- one involving not luggage, but radio and TV.
Back in the 1940s, in my pre-adolescent years, I sometimes matched wits with contestants on a show called "The $64 Question" on my Philco radio set. Less than a decade later, in the mid-1950s, inflation -- combined with hype -- had raised the stakes spectacularly, giving rise to a TV show called "The $64,000 Question."
I mention all this by way of leading up to a numismatic drama that unfolded yet another decade later, smack in the middle of the turbulent 1960s. The preamble is relevant, however, for the drama has come to be known in coin-collecting circles as "The '64-Dollar Question." And the coin around which it revolves could very well be worth $64,000 -- possibly even $640,000 -- if it ever appeared on the market.
That coin is the 1964-D Peace dollar -- and it is, without much doubt, the single most valuable U.S. coin struck in the last 65 years, or since the production and immediate withdrawal of the 1933 double eagle.
How much is it worth? That's hard to say, since there never has been a published report of any being sold. Some would even question whether any examples remain in existence today.
There's little question, though, that this coin did exist at one time -- in fact, that hundreds of thousands were produced. And the strange circumstances surrounding its birth and subsequent disposition only serve to heighten its allure.
It's widely believed that if any examples still survive today -- and if they can escape the threat of confiscation -- they might very well bring prices in the six-figure range. But, like so many of the facts and figures having to do with this coin, that falls under the heading of pure conjecture.
More than 33 years have passed since the '64 Peace dollar came into being in the late spring of 1965. However, the passage of time has shed little new light on this fascinating numismatic enigma.
Many are perplexed as to why the coin was minted in the first place. The timing was curious, to say the very least; in fact, it hardly could have been worse.
Consider what the circumstances were in August 1964, when the silver dollar proposal came before Congress for a vote:
The nation was in the grip of a prolonged coin shortage.
The government's silver stockpile was shrinking rapidly, as rising silver prices triggered widespread hoarding of silver coins.
And coin collectors and speculators had stripped the Treasury's vaults of virtually all the reserves of silver dollars.
Against this dismal backdrop, a new silver dollar was just about the last thing the government needed. Yet, under pressure from President Lyndon B. Johnson, Congress threw logic out the window and authorized the production of 45 million silver dollars. To get the ball rolling, it appropriated $600,000.
While there may not have been a logical explanation, there WAS a certain amount of political expediency behind this ill-conceived action.
Evidently, the realities of the silver shortage hadn't yet been fully grasped in Washington, and many members of Congress felt that the silver dollars siphoned from the Treasury ought to be replaced. This sentiment, it appears, was reinforced by demands from Western lawmakers, who argued that silver dollars were needed in the commerce of their region.
These legislators pressed their case with the president -- and once LBJ gave the proposal his blessing, his legendary arm-twisting skill all but assured the measure's passage.
The folly of this was underscored only a few weeks later, when the worsening coin shortage prompted Congress to authorize a date freeze: All coins struck after Dec. 31, 1964 would continue to be dated 1964 in an effort to discourage hoarding. But, even then, Congress stopped short of scuttling the new silver dollar.
Confronted simultaneously with shortages of smaller coins and dwindling stocks of silver, Treasury officials balked at starting production of the newly authorized cartwheel. They did so with the backing of key members of Congress who had fought against the proposal from the start.
But Western senators and congressmen continued to press for action -- and finally, on May 15, 1965, LBJ issued a presidential order directing that production begin without further delay.
During the days that followed, well over 300,000 silver dollars were struck at the Denver Mint. These included 30 trial strikes and 316,076 business strikes, presumably meant for use in circulation.
The Treasury has sought to keep a tight lid on details of this production. Despite this, numismatic sleuths have learned a great deal of pertinent information.
It is known, for example, that the coins were identical in design and composition to the Peace dollar, the last previous U.S. silver dollar, whose production had been halted in 1935. That means they were 90-percent silver.
It also has been determined that the coins were dated 1964, rather than 1965, in compliance with the date freeze then in effect. And according to at least one published report, they carried a "D" mint mark.
Why all the secrecy? Why not let those hundreds of thousands of coins speak for themselves?
As far as Uncle Sam is concerned, those coins never really existed. All 316,106 of them (counting the 30 trial strikes) were -- or should have been -- consigned to the melting pot.
Let's return to 1965. The White House, it turned out, was overruled by Congress. When word of the coins' production got back to congressional opponents, they angrily demanded immediate suspension of the program. And Mint officials cheerfully complied.
The Mint was convinced that the coins would never circulate -- and evidence suggests that it was right. Before a single '64 silver dollar could be issued, coin dealers -- anticipating their release -- already were running ads offering them for sale at prices as high as $7.50 a piece.
They never got to fill any orders. The fact is, the Mint never did issue a single '64 dollar. Orders went out from Washington that no further dollars should be struck, and that those already made should be melted -- and Denver Mint officials carried out those orders conscientiously.
How, then, could any of the coins have survived? The explanation lies in the manner of the melt.
Following standard procedure, Denver Mint technicians verified the number of coins being melted by weighing them on a quantity basis, rather than examining each one individually. This saved time and cut costs, but it also opened the door -- quite literally -- to possible removal of some of the coins from the mint.
One or more employees might very well have removed a few of the new coins and substituted specimens of older silver dollars. That way, the total weight still would have been correct, and the substitution might very well have gone unnoticed.
Undoubtedly, the Mint had other safeguards in place to avert such an occurrence. Eva B. Adams, the Mint director at the time, said the '64 dollars were "most carefully guarded to avoid a loss." She went so far as to say that "none of the coins ever left the mint."
But how could she -- or anyone -- really be sure? A few years later, entire bags of coins were stolen from the Philadelphia Mint, a much more modern facility, in spite of sophisticated security measures.
There's also a good chance that some of the silver dollars may have gotten out through official channels. Persistent rumors have it that presentation pieces were given to President Johnson and certain members of Congress -- and while the Mint has always denied such reports, cynics point out that the government once denied ever having produced the coins in the first place.
That denial was contained in a Treasury Department press release dated May 24, 1965. The Mint, it said, "will not make any ... dollars at this time" -- conveniently failing to mention that it had already produced more than 300,000.
There's documented evidence that at least two 1964 dollars survived until 1970. According to Mint records, 28 of the 30 trial strikes were melted immediately -- but the other two were sent to Washington for optical, physical and spectrographic examination and remained there, in a Treasury vault, until the spring of 1970. At that time, the records show, they were melted. Four members of a destruction committee signed affidavits attesting to this.
For a time, the '64 dollars all but disappeared from the hobby's consciousness. Then, in 1972, a commodities market newsletter reported that such dollars had indeed been produced -- and that some of them had escaped into private hands.
By interesting coincidence, that report appeared just about the time the seven-year statute of limitations presumably would have expired for federal prosecution of anyone who removed these coins from the mint.
In April 1973, Maryland coin dealer Bob Cohen placed a full-page ad in The Numismatist, the official monthly journal of the American Numismatic Association, offering to pay $3,000 for a specimen of the coin. Cohen reported that the ad generated a number of intriguing responses and even tentative offers -- but no actual coins.
A major reason for that, it would appear, was a press release issued by the Mint on May 31, 1973. In it, the bureau declared that since the '64 dollars were never officially issued, any such coins found in the possession of private individuals "are the property of the United States, which is entitled to recover [them]."
"Right after the ad appeared, I had an offer of five pieces at $5,000 each," Cohen said, "and I'm convinced it was legitimate. But then the government came out with all the publicity that the coins were illegal, and I never heard any more. The people evidently got scared."
Since then, most observers familiar with the matter have likened the '64 dollar to the 1933 double eagle ($20 gold piece) -- a coin which was also officially struck but not, in the government's view, officially issued. The Secret Service has indeed resorted to confiscation in the case of the '33 double eagle -- so anyone holding a '64 dollar would be understandably hesitant to bring it out of hiding, at least until and unless the stigma is removed by the Mint.
Harry J. Forman, a well known coin dealer from the Philadelphia area and author of several books on coin investment, has no doubt that '64 silver dollars may exist, but doubts whether any will surface -- at least in this country.
"None has turned up for 33 years and none may turn up for 33 years more," Forman said. "If one of these coins ever did turn up, I think it would be seized and in all probability placed in the Smithsonian. That's my guess.
"I don't think it would ever be ruled legal," he went on, "because there would be questions about how it got out of the mint. There would always be a cloud over the coin."
Collectors' best chance of seeing a '64 dollar -- or at least an illustration -- would be if one turned up overseas, Forman said.
"If one did get out, my suspicion would be that it would be out of the country," he remarked. "And if one of these coins turned up in an auction in Switzerland, I don't know whether the U.S. could get it back; after all, it sometimes has trouble extraditing criminals and bringing them back from abroad -- much less coins."
For now, there are many more questions than answers, and the 1964 Peace dollar remains a coin of mystery.
Do any examples exist? If so, where are they hidden? Is there any chance that the Mint might lift its ban? And if the ban were lifted, what would the coins be worth?
Those, to coin a phrase, are '64-dollar questions.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a photo of a new 64D peace dollar being handed to Johnson >>
Interesting. Would enjoy seeing this photo. Could not find it in the LBJ library. >>
I would also like to see this photo.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sorry, but hearsay and speculation doesn't convince me there are any real 1964-D dollars out there. >>
Me neither. >>
It also doesn't convince me but it's still nice to get all the hearsay out in the open.
<< <i>Many of the same issues apply to the 1974 aluminum cents, an unknown number of samples of which were not returned.
You know there have got to be a few of those out there, too! >>
There are multiple members here who saw one in-hand at a Maryland show a few years back. There was even a thread about it here with photos, but it was deleted.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>How come there are no pictures of a real 64 Peace dollar??
The first day of production coins were sold to mint employees, not numismatists. They had just seen three hundred thousand of them struck, and had no reason to think them anything special. I doubt that any of these employees had ever photographed a coin before that date, or that any of them ever photographed a coin after that date.
Remember, cell phone cameras were still a long, long ways off in the future!!!!!! The average person at the time had no idea how to take an image of a coin.
TD
I think it would be a good exercise to track down and interview some of those employees on record. We have one so far, Michael Lantz. Perhaps there are more.
A week later, an attorney for accident victim A, questions each witness individually, asking them to relate what they saw the previous week. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions differ substantially from one another, and from the police report.
A month later, an insurance claim investigator for accident victim B, questions each witness individually, asking them to relate what they saw the previous month. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions now differ on basic elements such as the color of the vehicles and direction of travel.
This phenomenon happens frequently. Each witness remembers different parts of the incident, and each adds and removes portions according to their backgrounds and bias. None of them are being false. All of them are being human
<< <i>Five people witness a traffic accident. The investigating officer questions each individually, asking them to relate what they saw. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions are contradictory in detail.
A week later, an attorney for accident victim A, questions each witness individually, asking them to relate what they saw the previous week. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions differ substantially from one another, and from the police report.
A month later, an insurance claim investigator for accident victim B, questions each witness individually, asking them to relate what they saw the previous month. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions now differ on basic elements such as the color of the vehicles and direction of travel.
This phenomenon happens frequently. Each witness remembers different parts of the incident, and each adds and removes portions according to their backgrounds and bias. None of them are being false. All of them are being human >>
The difference between this scenario and the employee sale story is here we have a number of witnesses providing statements on record, even if their recollection changes over time. For the employee sale story, there is not a single, verifiable witness providing any statement that a sale ever happened.
<< <i>
<< <i>How come there are no pictures of a real 64 Peace dollar??
The first day of production coins were sold to mint employees, not numismatists. They had just seen three hundred thousand of them struck, and had no reason to think them anything special. >>
Well, considering that there was no congressional authorization for them, they were special -- they weren't legitimate coins at all. This would be suggesting that these pieces were illegally distributed to employees within the mint. How come nobody called for a federal investigation into that violation of the law?
<< <i>
<< <i>Five people witness a traffic accident. The investigating officer questions each individually, asking them to relate what they saw. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions are contradictory in detail.
A week later, an attorney for accident victim A, questions each witness individually, asking them to relate what they saw the previous week. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions differ substantially from one another, and from the police report.
A month later, an insurance claim investigator for accident victim B, questions each witness individually, asking them to relate what they saw the previous month. Each answers honestly, but the descriptions now differ on basic elements such as the color of the vehicles and direction of travel.
This phenomenon happens frequently. Each witness remembers different parts of the incident, and each adds and removes portions according to their backgrounds and bias. None of them are being false. All of them are being human >>
The difference between this scenario and the employee sale story is here we have a number of witnesses providing statements on record, even if their recollection changes over time. For the employee sale story, there is not a single, verifiable witness providing any statement that a sale ever happened. >>
Why would an employee who had one of the coins provide such a statement, knowing that it could lead to trouble?
Drunner
Goldbully........
dollars, and the weight is dead balls on. I don't think Mint employees examined every coin, comon
<< <i>I don't think Mint employees examined every coin, comon
Of course they didn't. But that won't stop people from insisting that none exist because the mint says they don't.
<< <i>Sorry, but hearsay and speculation doesn't convince me there are any real 1964-D dollars out there. >>
I agree, regardless of the source. Photo's ARE needed and given the current situation with the Langbord suit, I doubt that any which surfaced now would be melted. There's just way too many money hungry lawyers out there eager to win a big one!
Given the relative ease of anonymity available on the web, I see no reason why a photo has not been produced.
The name is LEE!
And meet the young lady who fell from a star
She fell from the sky, she fell very far"
~ Glinda, a good witch
So if the Peace dollars were never issued in 1964 how does the new law ......."directing that all 1964 coinage minted after December 31, 1964 be CONTINUED TO BE DATED 1964" apply to the Peace dollars????
All these 1965 minted Peace dollars should have been dated 1965-D.
<< <i>All these 1965 minted Peace dollars should have been dated 1965-D. >>
IIRC, they were still minting silver 1964-dated coins in 1965.