MJ is asleep at the wheel: Philly Legend market report...
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
BNB will NOT be setting up this year. (but sub something else for BNB)
WHAT IS HOT? ...we're going to step out on a limb: Commems are strong at the "levels".
WHAT IS NOT HOT? DRECK! Merc Dimes. Lincoln Cents.
For the first time, we heard another dealer in high end coins saying how concerned he was nothing is showing up.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
it's good when they are gone.
Considering that major players like Heritage are still selling MS64 $5 and $10 Indians for dirt, I would have to seriously question the above statement. At $2650+/$1650+ retail for MS64 Indians they are at about the same levels as when gold hit $1025 in Feb, or $1155 in July. They were at $3600/$2400 last November with gold at $1220. They won't be sitting at these levels for much longer if gold continues up. Eventually buyers will wake up. No doubt they are "hot" if you can buy decent pieces at $2550/$1600....those are give aways.
roadrunner
Owners of the coins that Legend wants to sell are not selling and buyers of the coins that Legend wants to sell are not buying.
Without a steady supply of pesons who both sell their coins to Legend and buy their coins from Legend [and other similar large, high end, high volume dealers], the revenue to the dealer will stagnate or go down and the overhead/fixed expenses will remain the same. Absent capitial contributions by the owners of the dealership, a reduction of overhead/fixed expenses to keep the doors open will be a reality.
"Contraction" may now be the current dynamic, in the hobby as in other areas of the economy.
Same thing has happened in the area of real estate sales and real estate lending in California [but not in loan foreclosure]. Armies of real estate sales licensees and licensed real estate brokers who made bundles of money during the 2000-20007 time period have closed up shop and are doing other things in light of the downturn in the real estate market.
<< <i>Attendance of REAL BUYERS (of expensive coins) >>
At least REAL BUYER was clarified succinctly!
Why not use a word that doesn't negate the real collecting of others? Why not just call them whales like in poker?
<< <i>Interesting that it is hard for Legend [and others] to find coins to buy to replenish inventories; and at the same time Legend [and others] are having a hard time finding collectors who actually want to buy the coins that Legend [and others] want to sell (instead of those irksome, annoying "tire kickers").
Owners of the coins that Legend wants to sell are not selling and buyers of the coins that Legend wants to sell are not buying.
Without a steady supply of pesons who both sell their coins to Legend and buy their coins from Legend [and other similar large, high end, high volume dealers], the revenue to the dealer will stagnate or go down and the overhead/fixed expenses will remain the same. Absent capitial contributions by the owners of the dealership, a reduction of overhead/fixed expenses to keep the doors open will be a reality.
"Contraction" may now be the current dynamic, in the hobby as in other areas of the economy.
Same thing has happened in the area of real estate sales and real estate lending in California [but not in loan foreclosure]. Armies of real estate sales licensees and licensed real estate brokers who made bundles of money during the 2000-20007 time period have closed up shop and are doing other things in light of the downturn in the real estate market. >>
Sorry, but I think you've missed the mark on this one. Legend is having a great sales year, so buyers are not missing at all.
<< <i>
<< <i>Attendance of REAL BUYERS (of expensive coins) >>
At least REAL BUYER was clarified succinctly!
Why not use a word that doesn't negate the real collecting of others? Why not just call them whales like in poker? >>
I prefer the terms: buyers and stiffs. If you have to ask in which category you belong...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Attendance of REAL BUYERS (of expensive coins) >>
At least REAL BUYER was clarified succinctly!
Why not use a word that doesn't negate the real collecting of others? Why not just call them whales like in poker? >>
I prefer the terms: buyers and stiffs. If you have to ask in which category you belong...
I took out the laughing icon I had before. I do like the Legend reports - they are entertaining as well as informative
<< <i>MJ, is currently listening to his alma mater on internet radio from London and is sweating it out. My 16 day Europe business trip ends tommorrow.....RYK, thanks for filling in admirably
MJ >>
Denard Robinson for President and MJ can go to bed now! Go Blue.............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Why does everyone have to change the message all the time?
I did not mean to imply that Legend was having difficulty finding buyers. From the market report it is stated that at the Philly Whitman show there were few if any buyers at the show and that tire kickers were present. From there I commented on contractions of businesses in periods of economic slowdown [including California real estate].
I should have been more precise in the first sentence of my post, by qualifying it with the statement that "While at the Philly Whitman show.....".
My bad.
<< <i>My post was off the mark.
I did not mean to imply that Legend was having difficulty finding buyers. From the market report it is stated that at the Philly Whitman show there were few if any buyers at the show and that tire kickers were present. From there I commented on contractions of businesses in periods of economic slowdown [including California real estate].
I should have been more precise in the first sentence of my post, by qualifying it with the statement that "While at the Philly Whitman show.....".
My bad. >>
Understood. Coin shows have NEVER been about the retail public buying. Coin shows for dealers are about buying fresh inventory, wholesaling stale inventory and meeting clients. The VAST majority of retail coin sales occur elsewhere.
If Whitman had done one of the three Baltimore shows in Philly that would make MORE sense.
Why does everyone have to change the message all the time?
She also didn't mention "better date MS64" gold either. She only mentioned "gem better date gold." Since MS64 $5+$10's Indians are not gem, one has to interpret the message. I took that to mean common dates as well. Maybe the message needs to be made more clear so we all can interpret what it means. And imo common date MS 64 $5 + $10 Indians are indeed "better" gold when compared to the $20's. You think decent common date $5 Indians in MS64 are not better gold?
roadrunner
<< <i>Interesting that it is hard for Legend [and others] to find coins to buy to replenish inventories; and at the same time Legend [and others] are having a hard time finding collectors who actually want to buy the coins that Legend [and others] want to sell (instead of those irksome, annoying "tire kickers").
Owners of the coins that Legend wants to sell are not selling and buyers of the coins that Legend wants to sell are not buying.
Without a steady supply of pesons who both sell their coins to Legend and buy their coins from Legend [and other similar large, high end, high volume dealers], the revenue to the dealer will stagnate or go down and the overhead/fixed expenses will remain the same. Absent capitial contributions by the owners of the dealership, a reduction of overhead/fixed expenses to keep the doors open will be a reality.
"Contraction" may now be the current dynamic, in the hobby as in other areas of the economy.
Seems like Legend could save a few pennies and just walk the floor and call it a day. In the end everyone knows how to find the big dog on the net or by phone.
Typical report IMO, as far as commens, you can find a sliver in most series. Even shield nickels can find a buyer in the right grade, right price and with eye appeal.
I would think that coin shows have seen the glory days. The only time in the future that isles are crowded will be because of Hoover Rounds and the like. To many dealers act like used car salesmen to me. I love going to shows but over the last few years i have become more of a tire kicker myself.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Nevertheless Laura was incredibly friendly and accommodating herself even though for most of the show it was possible to play hopscotch in front of her table without bumping into retail customer.
For those who opted not to attend missed out on some neat giveaways...
A mind blowing 12 page brochure from Legend featuring the Denali and Simpson pattern collections and a really neat Andy Warhol type mouse pad that David Lawrence created using the 1894-S Barber Dime they sold.
I think her point of 2 in Baltimore and one in Philly was very spot on. And this year we had the ANA in Boston as well.
The same thing on the West Coast too. One less Long Beach and one less Santa Clara would probably help the remaining 2 in LB and the one remaining in SC. However, these shows need to be much better advertised and promoted then they have been for the past several years or they will continue to whither.
It would also help dealers if Whitman, CU, and the ANA found ways to help out by moderating costs to attend these shows. To even do it on the cheap, flying to the show, Priceline for Hotel sharing a room, cheap eats like subway footlongs for dinner one night and lunch the next, it takes about $1K assuming the bare bones minimum to attend one of these shows. If there is little retail at the show, then you need to do $10K-$12K in wholesale just to be around break-even.
Successful shows need dealers, the public and strong advertising and promotion to succeed. A lot of shows are at risk if the promoters/organizers of these shows don't get going NOW on building the team and focusing. Nearly all dealers feel the same in this regard yet it seems nothing much changes. Promoters better wake up!
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
Although I don't PARTICIPATE in the HIGH end of the coin MARKET, it is INTERESTING to be AWARE of the DYNAMICS.
thanks to RYK for POSTING this LINK!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Never were there any crowds, never did anyone have to wait in a line to get their registration, which was just a little card asking name address and email. we glanced at your photo ID, wrote your name (or nickname) on a little white sticker and you went in.
I want to tell you it was a mixed crowd that came into the show. Some, I could tell were seriously Koin Krazy. These guys who dressed "odd", had strange hair patterns....you could tell... you could just tell. They would be seated in front of the low cost table with well hand oiled notebook and pencil in lap. for hours.
There were people who obviously had no clue. A lot were looking to sell stuff...not a lot of kids. It was a somewhat racially diverse crowd and the addresses I glanced at showed about a 150 mile or so radius...
It was like baltimore but with 1/4 the floor traffic.
The coins...OMG never did I see so many stellas, slugs, proof gold, NORSE MEDALS, upper crust copper and silver. The amount of quality available was astonishing. Of course I cannot comment on if things were priced high or low because except for a few brave dealers, prices are not given until you are sized up...to see exactly what type of a fish you may be. I didnt even ask. Two books I specifically wanted to buy were not there. It was very pleasant and relaxed as far as a large show goes.
I feel bad for some of the dealers. It was obvious that at times they were just holding their chair to the floor,...pehaps thinking of all the coins they gave a ride to the show, and that 99.9% of those coins are coming back home again. You poor dealers must really hate the general public at times...I can just sense it. It was nice to have a STAFF lanyard on ......
I seen one gold *** sticker on the floor. Only one. If anyone seen more than the toned dime or half dime so ornamented, Id like to know..I only seen one.
It was a total hoot going with a shuttle bus full of guys from our coin club. Like a Team...and it was much more enjoyable doing it like that instead of one lone guy walking up and down aisles.
The poor girl from Wizard worked her TAIL off steady at the register and helping people. Man alive, she gets a gold star for effort! It was nice to see a bunch of cops patrolling on saturday. but, there **SHOULD** have been a much better police presence outside the building as the dealers were leaving....Lots of coins walking in center city Philadelphia....really should have been a better foot patrol of police for those few hours.
Everyone I met was nice, and it was enjoyable. The Folks at STACKS were wonderful, though I think the auction results were low because of the west coast show a week prior..maybe the internet bidder had already shot his load for the month. Floor bidders SnnnnnooooooooZZZZZEEE Like residents of a HOME they sat few and far apart with little motion. Pathetic. Without the internet presence, and domination...these big auctions, if they are all like this...would be a total farce.
There were some freaking amazing proof gold dollars, and MS68 gold dollars. OMG These things looked like jewels...better than jewels. A stunning piece hopefully Ill get a high grade one just to show how good they CAN be. Prices were stratospheric.....
Still floating on cloud nine getting the Defiant Eagle Feuchtwanger 3 Cent, Bad for the sellers, a slow auction, good for they buyer.
So thanks QDB for selling your Hard Times tokens, I seen him working down at the auction room, Cataloging paper money, looking like he was two days overdue for a day off. A Numismatic Legend....
now heres the rub... I study many other conventions, a few weeks ago I actually went down to the Baltimore area to chat with a show promotor of Movie / Horror theme conventions.... one is amazed by the amount of people attending the event and paying several hundred dollars to do so.... so conventions are not dead....but a "coin show" has to be about the whole not just looking at some cases.....once promotors understand that, then maybe and just maybe you can have a real show with whole familys having some fun
<< <i>I second the fact that Whitman runs a AAA show.... but the problem with Phil is several fold..... hotels do not come cheap and as dealers have mentioned to me, it just doesnt seem to have a local base.... that doesnt mean there are not some collectors it just means that you are not going to fill up a convention center ...
now heres the rub... I study many other conventions, a few weeks ago I actually went down to the Baltimore area to chat with a show promotor of Movie / Horror theme conventions.... one is amazed by the amount of people attending the event and paying several hundred dollars to do so.... so conventions are not dead....but a "coin show" has to be about the whole not just looking at some cases.....once promotors understand that, then maybe and just maybe you can have a real show with whole familys having some fun >>
I don't know if it's due to the demographics or the psyche of the typical coin collector, but coin show attendance issues and collector mindsets are quite fickle. At other types of conventions like the aforementioned movie conventions, attendance figures often come exceeding expectations despite the fact that admission passes typically cost upwards of $100 per person. Conventions like ComicCon are sold out months in advance. Coin people, on the other hand, scoff when admission isn't free and will often use every excuse available (distance, parking, perceived danger, etc.) to justify not attending a show.
This is probably the only industry I can think of where convention attendees will moan and gripe about having to pay for parking and admission then will turn around and without flinching will spend $10,000 to buy one coin.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Coin people, on the other hand, scoff when admission isn't free... >>
The first year our coin club instituted an admission fee (one whole dollar), several people turned around and walked away, saying that there was no way they'd pay to get in.
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin people, on the other hand, scoff when admission isn't free... >>
The first year our coin club instituted an admission fee (one whole dollar), several people turned around and walked away, saying that there was no way they'd pay to get in. >>
Just a few weeks ago at the San Francisco Mint show I was standing by the front lobby during the afternoon when I witnessed one gentleman who wanted to enter. When he was told admission was $3 he blurted out a loud "f--- y--!" then turned around and stormed out.
I have a new policy at shows I set up at that charge an admission fee. If you aren't a dealer and you spend more than $300 with me I will take care of your admission fee.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"