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Help with Grading, and seeing all the details...
mcarney1173
Posts: 927 ✭✭✭✭✭
Ok, a lot of times, a board member will post a Raw Morgan Dollar and ask us to Guess the Grade.
So, I click on the thread and see this:
I scan (view) the picture a few times and make my decision.
I post: "This looks like an MS64"
However, another, more experienced board member comes in and says that the coin looks like a 62 because of all the scratches and nicks on the obverse.
So, when I read this, I scroll back up to the top, and after looking at it for a second time, I realize that this coin is actually a 62.
(On the second look, I notice the marks and change my grade to a 62 also)
This usually happens everytime I look at a coin. The more I look at the coin, I begin to assign it a lower and lower grade.
Sometimes, when I'm at shows, or B&M's, I'll buy a nice raw coin. It looked like a solid 66 to me. Then, I get home inspect the coin further and realize its actually just barely MS, (61/62)
This usually happens with 10, 15 dollar coins, but now I'm moving up to a few hundred dollar or thousand dollar coins, and I'm afraid the same thing will happen with those too.
What do you suggest?
So, I click on the thread and see this:
I scan (view) the picture a few times and make my decision.
I post: "This looks like an MS64"
However, another, more experienced board member comes in and says that the coin looks like a 62 because of all the scratches and nicks on the obverse.
So, when I read this, I scroll back up to the top, and after looking at it for a second time, I realize that this coin is actually a 62.
(On the second look, I notice the marks and change my grade to a 62 also)This usually happens everytime I look at a coin. The more I look at the coin, I begin to assign it a lower and lower grade.
Sometimes, when I'm at shows, or B&M's, I'll buy a nice raw coin. It looked like a solid 66 to me. Then, I get home inspect the coin further and realize its actually just barely MS, (61/62)
This usually happens with 10, 15 dollar coins, but now I'm moving up to a few hundred dollar or thousand dollar coins, and I'm afraid the same thing will happen with those too.
What do you suggest?
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Comments
Also, to my eyes, at least, the image doesn't allow a good enough look at the coin to be able to provide a meaningful grade guess. I can't tell if it's AU, an MS64 (or some grade in between).
<< <i>The circled areas do not look bad enough to downgrade the coin from a 64 to a 62.
Also, to my eyes, at least, the image doesn't allow a good enough look at the coin to be able to provide a meaningful grade guess. I can't tell if it's AU, an MS64 (or some grade in between). >>
This actual picture was never posted on the boards, I just found it on google. The basic idea that I'm trying to convey, is that everytime I see an MS coin, I grade it X, where it is actually X-2, or sometimes even 3
<< <i>
<< <i>The circled areas do not look bad enough to downgrade the coin from a 64 to a 62.
Also, to my eyes, at least, the image doesn't allow a good enough look at the coin to be able to provide a meaningful grade guess. I can't tell if it's AU, an MS64 (or some grade in between). >>
This actual picture was never posted on the boards, I just found it on google. The basic idea that I'm trying to convey, is that everytime I see an MS coin, I grade it X, where it is actually X-2, or sometimes even 3 >>
Whether you are grading too loosely or too conservatively, if you are consistently off in the same direction and by a similar amount, that means you are at least in an excellent position to do a little bit of tweaking. That is a MUCH better position to be in than one in which you are all over the place.
A few years back the above is exactly what happened to me constantly. Now I look at a coin atleast three or four times before putting a grade or money amount on it. If I have any doubt about the condition I walk. Walking has saved quite a few bucks. Obviously I cannot grade a coin in 10 seconds.
Ken
<< <i>Sometimes, when I'm at shows, or B&M's, I'll buy a nice raw coin. It looked like a solid 66 to me. Then, I get home inspect the coin further and realize its actually just barely MS, (61/62) >>
When you get home and see the coin isn't all you thought it was, is it because you missed one particular aspect of the grade (strike, luster, surface marks, eye appeal), or is it a combination?
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Usually, I buy the coin based on luster and eye appeal, overlooking surface marks and strike.
As for the thousand dollar high grade coins, best to avoid them until at least the basics of grading are understood. Another cliche comes to mind, if a person doesn't know their coins, they had better know their dealer. Translation: work with a trusted dealer. Some dealers might take the time to mentor a good customer. Don't have one, best to start developing some dealer relationships, if you are keen on sinking big money into coins. One caveat, is that not all dealers are interested in helping collectors, and a few low life dealers might see a novice as a mark to be drained of cash.
Another suggestion is to take the ANA summer seminar on grading. It is an immersive course, and if a person is intent on buying expensive coins, the cost of airfare and fees might be well worth it.
For the small fish collector with limited time, looking at online images can help. Compare and contrast images of different grades, same grades. Again, repetition is important. Do realize that images are not a substitute for live coins, but if a person is bidding or buying mostly based on images, spending time on images can be worthwhile.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
It's surprising that you are missing surface marks using a 10x loop - most people using a 10x would overemphasize the impact of surface marks, because they will be so greatly magnified. Is it possible the LED is too bright and keeping you from noticing the surface marks? If you see them when you get home, but not at a show or shop, think about the lighting and the technique you are using to evaluate the coin when you purchase it.
See if you have better results looking at the coin without a loop first, then using a 5x.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>I have a 5, 10 and 15, but I mostly use the 10, cause it has an LED which I use for hairlines and regular scratches I might otherwise miss >>
I prefer a 5X or 7X loupe and don't like LED lighting. The LEDs could be part of the problem. Incandescent is best and I find halogen works ok for me too.
<< <i>Sometimes, when I'm at shows, or B&M's, I'll buy a nice raw coin. It looked like a solid 66 to me. Then, I get home inspect the coin further and realize its actually just barely MS, (61/62) >>
You're not looking hard enough at the coin, initially. That's basically all you're saying, here. Look harder at the coin before you buy it.
hold coin in hand, wear reading glasses, rotate it around under a good light. Form a grade opinion in five seconds. Subtract one.
thats the grade.
<< <i>How To Grade:
hold coin in hand, wear reading glasses, rotate it around under a good light. Form a grade opinion in five seconds. Subtract one.
thats the grade.
perhaps you should
add one
diopter
to your glasses
<< <i>How To Grade:
hold coin in hand, wear reading glasses, rotate it around under a good light. Form a grade opinion in five seconds. Subtract one.
thats the grade.
For the original poster, maybe subtract four points
He/she didn't say how long it took to form the MS66 opinion, or how much additional time it took for MS62. Lighting can be a factor. Some collectors prefer magnifiers with a light, so as to get more consistent lighting, because lighting can make a huge difference.
Again, looking at coins side-by-side can be a big help. It is probably not the best thing to do at a busy show, but with fellow collector at the break area or in a club meeting room, or at a friendly local shop, lay out several certified coins of various and same grades and try to sort them from best to worst without worrying about the actual grades. Again, an experienced collector or dealer can often point out what the person is missing when sorting the coins.
/edit to add: for online, a person can use the Teletrade or Heritage image archives to find lots of images to compare to. Again, side-by-side comparisons can be instructive, though image quality can vary quite a bit.
I've got a rather troublesome problem myself, and that's differentiating in small gold coins better AUs from lower uncirculated grades. That could lead to some pretty expensive errors if I don't automatically assume I'm a few points over. That's also why I limit my raw buying to coins priced in the AU range.