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Legend vs. Coin Docs (MJ must be sleeping...)
SmallEagle
Posts: 736
SmallEagle
Posts: 736
Comments
In response to this paragraph:
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"WHY DON'T I NAME NAMES?
Simple, the bas**rds will sue me. Call me stingy, but I am not in the mood to pay $500,000.00 out in legal fees or take the small chance of losing (I do have access to the BEST lawyers in the US though). Besides, most collectors do NOT know or have access to the docs. All they would do is gossip on the chatrooms. I have tried hard to give dead on tips as to who or where some of these bad guys nest. Keep in mind, even though we ALL have been violated in some fashion by the docs, PCGS has been harmed directly with a broken contract. I predict a slam dunk win by PCGS. I hope after this first suit, they do another and another until the white flags appear at the docs bourse tables. "
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Isn't there a way to name the docs without being sued? Something like "people who I choose to not do business with" or something that could not be construed as libelous.
Just wondering....Mike
<< <i>Interesting reading. Thanks for posting the link....
In response to this paragraph:
------------------------
"WHY DON'T I NAME NAMES?
Simple, the bas**rds will sue me. Call me stingy, but I am not in the mood to pay $500,000.00 out in legal fees or take the small chance of losing (I do have access to the BEST lawyers in the US though). Besides, most collectors do NOT know or have access to the docs. All they would do is gossip on the chatrooms. I have tried hard to give dead on tips as to who or where some of these bad guys nest. Keep in mind, even though we ALL have been violated in some fashion by the docs, PCGS has been harmed directly with a broken contract. I predict a slam dunk win by PCGS. I hope after this first suit, they do another and another until the white flags appear at the docs bourse tables. "
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Isn't there a way to name the docs without being sued? Something like "people who I choose to not do business with" or something that could not be construed as libelous.
Just wondering....Mike >>
What Laura states is absolutely correct. Liabilities can be enormous and someone doesn't have to be a coin doctor for them to be someone you wouldn't do business with. It is also absolutely true that most, if not all coin doctors are unknown and inaccessible to the general retail public. For the collector public to know names wouldn't really matter much in the big picture.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I think that this is an instance in which NOT naming names may be more effective than naming them. If Laura offered a list of names, there may be some ramifications that are not in the best interest of the cause:
1. Most collectors will not recognize most names and may wrongly assume that coin doctoring therefore does not affect them.
2. The finite list would imply that it is a contained, isolated problem.
Not having a list fosters the belief that the problem is widespread and may affect anyone--which is actually the case--rather than creating the illusion that it is isolated and of little concern to most serious collectors.
Why does Legend still list PNG in their list of "Legend Numismatics References"?
<< <i>What I'd like to know is:
Why does Legend still list PNG in their list of "Legend Numismatics References"? >>
Why don't you send her an e-mail to ask? She says she reads every e-mail and she may deign to reply!
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
<< <i>WHY DON'T I NAME NAMES?
I think that this is an instance in which NOT naming names may be more effective than naming them. If Laura offered a list of names, there may be some ramifications that are not in the best interest of the cause:
1. Most collectors will not recognize most names and may wrongly assume that coin doctoring therefore does not affect them.
2. The finite list would imply that it is a contained, isolated problem.
Not having a list fosters the belief that the problem is widespread and may affect anyone--which is actually the case--rather than creating the illusion that it is isolated and of little concern to most serious collectors. >>
Good points.
<< <i>What I'd like to know is:
Why does Legend still list PNG in their list of "Legend Numismatics References"? >>
Is she a member of PNG?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have been doing my part by not buying coins from known coin docs.
I have said in the past that all coin docs should be shot and made into dog food...but I was made aware that doing so would be bad for the dogs
When I am asked for a coin that I don't have,I send my clients to dealers that do not fix coins ,and care about coins more than money.
Coin docs could care less about coins.
All they care about is making tons of money.
If every dealer or collector does their part to help stop the docs,we all would be in a better place.
Back to adding Vegas newps
Go Laura !!
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
<< <i>It is interesting that many dealers are quiet on this issue. >>
Just a WAG, but I'd say many collectors are, too. I'm not sure just what that means, though...
Coin Doctor!?! Four words! Ex! Ter! Mi! Nate!
SmallEagle---Pretty much
MJ was on a plane from China to LA. Now on to Detroit on the red eye and then a four hour drive to South Bend. Go Blue and go Laura...............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The above comment of Laura's intrigued me and got me to thinking. I wonder what percentage of "crackout" dealers quickly or eventually become coin doctors? And that's if they weren't already coin doctors to start with.
I think Andy is also sleeping.
<< <i><< I watch the brightest potential talent all lean toward being "crackout" dealers and eventually fading in to full coin doctoring. >>
The above comment of Laura's intrigued me and got me to thinking. I wonder what percentage of "crackout" dealers quickly or eventually become coin doctors? And that's if they weren't already coin doctors to start with. >>
I was thinking the same thing. Who hasnt cracked a coin from its holder to get the next higher grade? I would say just about everyone has done it, that doesnt put you on the road to being a coin doctor. IMO.
EAC 6024
<< <i>
<< <i><< I watch the brightest potential talent all lean toward being "crackout" dealers and eventually fading in to full coin doctoring. >>
The above comment of Laura's intrigued me and got me to thinking. I wonder what percentage of "crackout" dealers quickly or eventually become coin doctors? And that's if they weren't already coin doctors to start with. >>
I was thinking the same thing. Who hasnt cracked a coin from its holder to get the next higher grade? I would say just about everyone has done it, that doesnt put you on the road to being a coin doctor. IMO. >>
True, but there is a big difference between occasionally cracking out a coin in the hopes of an upgrade, vs. trying to make a living by doing so on a regular basis. At some point, certain individuals must succumb to the temptation to help the coins along.
Much like a jazz musician, they may uderstand what and how they are playing a particular tune, but I, in my sublime solace, need only to be able to enjoy the music without searching for authenticity.
Whereas I can enjoy the beauty of a particular Modern coin without concern for it's legacy, pedigree, or history of treatment, I cannot do the same for a confusing and conflicted "classic".
Is it PQ, is it worthy of a CAC label, has it been whizzed, cleaned or otherwise messed with where I look like a dummy when I go to liquidate. Or find it is worth much less tha the orignal price.
Or, unkowingly, I pass this problem onto someone else.
When I buy moderns, they have some intrtinsic value in either silver, gold, or platinum. Worst case scenario, they will be woth spot only.
What percentage of Mint released coins in the past 4 years, since I have ben collecting from the Mint, are worth less than spot? And worth less than issue price?
I do not have time of the inclination to learn enough that I believe I am making a sound desicion in the purchase of a "classic" coin.
I do appreciate the vast store of knowledge and experience in these boards, but that does not lead me into the unknown world of possibly doctored coins with comfort.
And what is likelehood of current issued Modern being doctored when they typically fetch a 69 or 70 grading?
I have a choice with a modern of leaving it sealed, leaving it raw, or having it graded. All three are viable choices that will lead to my enjoyment of the coin without other's being hurt.
I empathize with those of you struggling with this profoundly history changing event; yet, I remain thankful I am out of the loop.
Miles
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><< I watch the brightest potential talent all lean toward being "crackout" dealers and eventually fading in to full coin doctoring. >>
The above comment of Laura's intrigued me and got me to thinking. I wonder what percentage of "crackout" dealers quickly or eventually become coin doctors? And that's if they weren't already coin doctors to start with. >>
I was thinking the same thing. Who hasnt cracked a coin from its holder to get the next higher grade? I would say just about everyone has done it, that doesnt put you on the road to being a coin doctor. IMO. >>
True, but there is a big difference between occasionally cracking out a coin in the hopes of an upgrade, vs. trying to make a living by doing so on a regular basis. At some point, certain individuals must succumb to the temptation to help the coins along. >>
In my mind, right or wrong, "crackout dealer" is synonymous with "coin doctor". I do also make the distinction between dealers who occasional or even often crack out a coin for an upgrade, and those whose livelihood depends on the upgrade.
<< <i>
<< <i> I watch the brightest potential talent all lean toward being "crackout" dealers and eventually fading in to full coin doctoring. >>
The above comment of Laura's intrigued me and got me to thinking. I wonder what percentage of "crackout" dealers quickly or eventually become coin doctors? And that's if they weren't already coin doctors to start with. >>
With each step in the process, those that submit in quantity may learn enough to move to the next level.
Submitting raw coins > Submitting cracked out coins > Submitting cracked out & doctored coins
First, I have a huge amount of respect for Laura Sperber's efforts regarding coin doctoring.
She's completely correct about PNG. Basically, PNG is really oriented to helping dealers and not collectors. Right now, as a collector, there is no professional organization that enforces dealer ethical behavior and serves to protect collectors.
If PNG, or some other organization, really enforced ethical behavior among dealers, then this coin collecting hobby would flourish. You dealers need to remember that its collectors, like me, that pay your bills. You coin dealers also need to understand that the bad-practices of a few dealers can significantly change the perception of all coin dealers. When coin collectors, like me, feel that we are frequently being scammed or ripped-off, then we will simply stop collecting.
Coin doctoring is reprehensible. You dealers need to stop it, which means you need to stop condoning coin-doctoring by protecting your fellow-dealers.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
RYK, your comment got me thinking. At some point, shouldn't an equilibrium be reached in the crackout arena - where just as many downgrades occur as upgrades? Even considering the reality of coin doctoring & crackouts, at some point along the way - this should still be true. At some point, continued damage to the existing populations of classic coins ought to start resulting in a trend towards lower grades, not higher ones.
Miles - you are preaching to the choir.
I knew it would happen.
Actually, I was having trouble with my Mexican keyboard and couldn't get my brilliant reply to post. Will rewrite the damned thing tonight. Gotta make my DFW connection now!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thank you, Senator.
<< <i> "WHY DON'T I NAME NAMES?
First, I have a huge amount of respect for Laura Sperber's efforts regarding coin doctoring.
She's completely correct about PNG. Basically, PNG is really oriented to helping dealers and not collectors. Right now, as a collector, there is no professional organization that enforces dealer ethical behavior and serves to protect collectors.
If PNG, or some other organization, really enforced ethical behavior among dealers, then this coin collecting hobby would flourish. You dealers need to remember that its collectors, like me, that pay your bills. You coin dealers also need to understand that the bad-practices of a few dealers can significantly change the perception of all coin dealers. When coin collectors, like me, feel that we are frequently being scammed or ripped-off, then we will simply stop collecting.
Coin doctoring is reprehensible. You dealers need to stop it, which means you need to stop condoning coin-doctoring by protecting your fellow-dealers. >>
By "protecting" them, do you mean by not naming names publicly, or by other means?
<< <i> "WHY DON'T I NAME NAMES?
First, I have a huge amount of respect for Laura Sperber's efforts regarding coin doctoring.
She's completely correct about PNG. Basically, PNG is really oriented to helping dealers and not collectors. Right now, as a collector, there is no professional organization that enforces dealer ethical behavior and serves to protect collectors.
If PNG, or some other organization, really enforced ethical behavior among dealers, then this coin collecting hobby would flourish. You dealers need to remember that its collectors, like me, that pay your bills. You coin dealers also need to understand that the bad-practices of a few dealers can significantly change the perception of all coin dealers. When coin collectors, like me, feel that we are frequently being scammed or ripped-off, then we will simply stop collecting.
Coin doctoring is reprehensible. You dealers need to stop it, which means you need to stop condoning coin-doctoring by protecting your fellow-dealers. >>
Is it just me, or is the wording of this post a bit offensive with "YOU DEALERS," followed by the "protecting" accusation? The truth of the matter is that it is everyone's responsibility to do whatever they can to rid the hobby of this ugly situation. Laura had many specific recommendations that all of us, whether collectors or dealers, can do. The "you dealers" comments simply circumvent personal responsibility and effort, in an attempt to lay the blame elsewhere. And by the way, you don't pay my bills. It is my hope that you will put personal effort into this by following at least some of the recommendations. But please, lose the "you dealers" vocabulary. It is a real turn-off.
Larry L.
<< <i>
<< <i>In my mind, right or wrong, "crackout dealer" is synonymous with "coin doctor". I do also make the distinction between dealers who occasional or even often crack out a coin for an upgrade, and those whose livelihood depends on the upgrade. >>
RYK, your comment got me thinking. At some point, shouldn't an equilibrium be reached in the crackout arena - where just as many downgrades occur as upgrades? Even considering the reality of coin doctoring & crackouts, at some point along the way - this should still be true. At some point, continued damage to the existing populations of classic coins ought to start resulting in a trend towards lower grades, not higher ones. >>
The thing is that the higher grades would stay higher while the lower ones would be resubmitted until it got a higher grade. So while the pops may be inaccurate, there may be more coins in higher graded slabs.
I have a lot of respect for RYK and Mark but I just don't see how one can equate crackout artists with coin doctors. Unless I'm missing something, crackout artists aren't ruining coins or committing fraud.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
That said, I think that "cleaning up the market" will be a far messier process than most people realize, and fortunes will be lost. Do I have a problem with that? No, not really. One way or another, the market is going to have to sort things out, which means that the prices of slabbed coins have to more accurately reflect the quality of the coins in the holders. But given the number of people that will be burned, I don't want to be the one seen as speeding the process along. Better to let Laura take the credit.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Not all dealers. Just the really evil ones. And potentially the ones with so much talent and ability most can't even figure out the limits of their skills; they do magic! Better to damn the wizards rather than later fall victim to the unknowable spells their talents weave.
But while knowledge is power, not all are indiscrimatedly corrupt in their use of it. Of course some dealers doctor coins. And most doctors are dealers. They're the only ones who know coins well enough to not go broke trying after eating from the tree of knowledge.This thread seems by no means entirely about doctoring. My interpretation is that it's more about the inequality of knowledge sets and skill sets between the best dealer/graders and everyone else. And the fears that the lesser-skilled have that they will be taken advantage of through their own weakness. It is natural to feel vulnerable to greater power. It is expert power.
The longer you've been around, especially pre-slab, the better a chance you've had to get down-and dirty with the planchets, strikes, sufaces, yada-yada. The variability between years, between mints, and on and on. Crack-out guys have made lots of mistakes and learned from them. Some of them have taken massive hits when they missed something. I have seen 4 knowledgeable dealers agree on a 50K+ coin and lose more than half their money. I know of a 100K plus hickey taken on dipping a Rolled Edge. Etc, etc, etc. Obviously, they haven't just taken hits, they've gotten scores too.
Surely they are much more knowledgeable about the fabric of most coins than 99%++ of the people in the hobby. Knowing more than most about the planchets MAY inform a doctor or doctor's client about the potential for what might be changed. About how the surfaces will dip out OR take color. About what kind of cameo to expect when a coin is dipped because they've seen every proof in the series tens of times. And for the same reason, what funkiness is most likely to hide problems because the color sits wrong FOR THAT PARUCULAR DATE AND MINT. For what dates and denominations have planchet preparations issues most likely to be confused by TPGs as hairlines. For variations in strike. And on and on. Some know more than TPG experts. And if not on everything, there are specialists. Unless you consider dipping to be doctoring (I do, just no qualms about it) no doctoring has occurred. None need occur and I know major major crackout dealers who won't bother or who rely on their pure numismatic knowledge to get them results. Dealers to whom a year with only $500k in fees is a bad year. They haven''t found enough ammo.
There is tons of money to be doctoring coins that are FUBAR, especially rare dates, yet often the coin is never intended to go into a major TPG holder. Sometimes very knowledgeable specialists thank the doctor for de-FUBARizing. Some of these coins DO fool the services. Some of these techniques were "market-acceptable" 50 years-25 years-5 years ago. I've been told of techniques originating in the lienage of Abe Kosoff. A founder and member #1 of PNG. And whatever is said about that organization I'd stack the total expertise in that organization against the whole rest of the US market. Maybe not on a generalist basis as is needed for top-tier TPG graders, but the specialist knowledge is astounding. BTW I'm not a member.
I will not name the TPG insider who told me, relating to a coin I'd seen make a 50K jump from 58 to 63, that the "doctor" just exuded better squalene that the owner of it as a 58.
But all this rant is intended to just make a case for the crack-out artists as practitioners of an art.
A friend told me this story. He made the coin. He sold the coin. I saw the coin. I know the story's true. Perhaps 5-6 years ago, at a West Coast auction, appears a full intact original 1911 proof set 1c thru $20. All NGC fatties and scrumptious++.
An East Coast retailer full of bluster tells multiple dealers they have NO chance at the PF68 10c. That dealer comes in 4th to three major wholesalers who are all very strong on coins when cracking, No doctoring in this story at all. Whatever other insights and abilities they might have in this area could have enhanced their knowledge to the point where they made better decisions, but this is a pure crack-out play. The buyer pays under 12K all in.
Knowing the coin's history the "don't even bother"pays $30K+ for it two months later in an NGC PF69 holder fresh from the slabbing machine at the next NGC Grope-and-Stroke. The buyer was heard to remark with chagrin that the end-user HAD to have it. The coin was still very very cherry.
Crack-out dealers don't have to be doctors. Most have a talent approaching genius. A natural eye informed by deep immersion in their area of study is a very good start.
Not all coin geniuses are crack-out artists, but all crack-out artists carry some form of genius. You should be afraid, very afraid. The anger of fear may pump adrenaline and make you strong enough to fight back. It's a much more ego-syntonic emotion than shame. The neuro-transmitters for shame usually cause psychic implosion. A feeing of weakness, od despair. Never give a hint, perhaps even to yourself, that you're even a little bit secretly jealous.
Rant brought to you by 40+ years experience taking darts in my butt just because Life's that way, and also being outsmarted by others, and also outsmarting myself. And paying attention.
There are a lot of truisms in this rant. It contains small portions of the Truth.
I can't believe the number of compliments I'll get for this post.
Giggle....
Your post was a very interesting read. Thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts into words.
2-3 years of pain in cleaning things up is not the worst thing that can happen in coins. The worst thing is if we do nothing (bravo PCGS).
The Hot Topics Laura wrote is probably her best yet on the subject.
Uh, maybe that's not such a good analogy. That's what was in the Kool-Aid from the start.
The proposition, presented as a factual statement couched in a gross generalization, is that, once one has despoiled the virginity of the until now unopened slab and tasted the forbidden fruit, that your fall will be as deep and as hard as Adam's. There's no way to escape the seductive lure of continuing deeper and deeper into the Pit. I think this is also the plotline of Reefer Madness.
Someone on these boards has a superb Aristotle quote about entertaining an idea without accepting its truth.
Tail-Gunner Joe (channeled by Glenn Beck) could have a ball with the coin doctor issue. The PNG can take the role of the Liberals.
Is the Q'uran-burning pastor from Florida available this week.
<< <i>It's too bad a bunch of threads from years ago have been deleted. Some folks might be shocked. >>
DOn't know what you're talking about, but ever hear of the Wayback Machine?
<< <i>I thought by far the most interesting and encouraging statement in Laura's latest is that John Albanese has seen a sharp downturn in "messed with" coins. He is in a unique position to judge such things.
I have a lot of respect for RYK and Mark but I just don't see how one can equate crackout artists with coin doctors. Unless I'm missing something, crackout artists aren't ruining coins or committing fraud. >>
I don't equate the two - that is part of the reason why I found Laura's comment intriguing and why it got me to thinking. That said, at the very least, a number of crack-out artists dip coins. And I think that in a number of instances, making a livelihood out of seeking upgrades can lead some crack-out artists down the path of other, much worse types of coin doctoring.
<< <i>Crackout dealers do cross the line eventually and become coin doctors. If their percentages slow they start to add some wax, maybe a little color, or thumb a beautiful Morgan (which I have seen)..... >>
Some do and others don't. Please don't make such all encompassing and unfair statemets about people, many of whom you don't know.
<< <i>Commentary by Laura Sperber; Posted: September 10, 2010 01:20 AM CST - "I predict a slam dunk win by PCGS." >>
Sometimes I wonder who wrote this tune and who's dancing to it.
<< <i>I think Andy is also sleeping.
Actually, I was having trouble with my Mexican keyboard and couldn't get my brilliant reply to post. Will rewrite the damned thing tonight. Gotta make my DFW connection now! >>
que?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
True. But what if the doctors came up with a newer system that fooled both the tpg's and JA? Would JA still be in a "unique" position to identify the newly "messed with" coins coming through? Legend, JA and anyone associated with the CAC venture has a built-in motive to continue to push the doctoring issue hard as well as to proclaim the success of said movement with every feasible data point. It makes the decision easier when said efforts support the bottom line of every CAC dealer at the expense of most non-CAC dealers. Mr. Eureka's foreboding comments suggest that the system has to be torn down before it can be properly rebuilt. The dirty secret of coin doctoring has many similarities to otc derivatives being used in the financial markets. Both bring about assured and bountiful profits to the dealers that issue them. And to immediately curtail their use and bring all abuses immediately into the light would cripple their respective industries.
roadrunner
<< <i>All the dealers refuse to blame their buddies or are in pure denialabout the issues. So many dealers tell me I am so wrong and that its the grading services who should catch the bad coins. Here is what they need to wake up too: DEALERS WHO FEEL ITS THEIR RIGHT TO VIOLATE THE GRADING SERVICES SUBMISSION CONTRACTS AND FRAUDULENTY SUBMIT "WORKED ON" COINS. Key word: FRAUD. >>
By the time the coins get to the TPG services, it seems that the damage has already been done; the coins are still messed with. The idea is to reduce the number of or eliminate the bad coins period so that the TPGs have nothing to catch.
Why would we not expect CAC to want to protect itself by reducing the incidence of doctored coins submitted, first to the TPGs and afterwards to that company. Of course JA sees economic gain. As do the TPGs themselves.
JA wants to back his product. He does not see himself as on a coin doctor seek-and-destroy mission in this regard so much as he wants to maintain the integrity of his product and maintain its credibility. This is my supposition, not his statement. Ms. Laura's means satisfy both Cac's and her his ends. In this imperfect world, with his phenomenal talents balanced by sensible humility and accurate reality testing, he recognizes the obvious: the more he likes the coins he stickers, the more confidence he places in his bids. If others want to top him, so be it.
JA also trades in non-CAC coins. He simply does not commit to buying them back on a sight-seen basis at a later date. He handled two 1804 S$1's last year that he would not sticker. They had a value at the time of the transaction with which he was comfortable. I'd be surprised if he has a bid on them. My bid is, and if hit i'm sure he'd be very pleased to take a piece of the action, even provide financing, is $1mil.
MrEureka gets 10% just because he's such an interesting fellow and has been a good friend for 30+ years. It'll be fun.
<< <i>Roadrunner's point has truth to it.
Why would we not expect CAC to want to protect itself by reducing the incidence of doctored coins submitted, first to the TPGs and afterwards to that company. Of course JA sees economic gain. As do the TPGs themselves.
JA wants to back his product. He does not see himself as on a coin doctor seek-and-destroy mission in this regard so much as he wants to maintain the integrity of his product and maintain its credibility. This is my supposition, not his statement. Ms. Laura's means satisfy both Cac's and her his ends. In this imperfect world, with his phenomenal talents balanced by sensible humility and accurate reality testing, he recognizes the obvious: the more he likes the coins he stickers, the more confidence he places in his bids. If others want to top him, so be it.
JA also trades in non-CAC coins. He simply does not commit to buying them back on a sight-seen basis at a later date. He handled two 1804 S$1's last year that he would not sticker. They had a value at the time of the transaction with which he was comfortable. I'd be surprised if he has a bid on them. My bid is, and if hit i'm sure he'd be very pleased to take a piece of the action, even provide financing, is $1mil.
MrEureka gets 10% just because he's such an interesting fellow and has been a good friend for 30+ years. It'll be fun. >>
CJ, I really enjoy your posts - thanks for your contributions.
<< <i>First, of course I'm all for anything that will lead to fewer coins going under the coin doctor's knife. And of course I'm glad to see PCGS, NGC, CAC and a number of dealers - not just Laura - working towards that end.
That said, I think that "cleaning up the market" will be a far messier process than most people realize, and fortunes will be lost. Do I have a problem with that? No, not really. One way or another, the market is going to have to sort things out, which means that the prices of slabbed coins have to more accurately reflect the quality of the coins in the holders. But given the number of people that will be burned, I don't want to be the one seen as speeding the process along. Better to let Laura take the credit. >>
You're conspicuously leaving out the positions of the PNG and the ANA on this.
Anywho, I wonder just how the lawsuit is going. I mean, I wonder if she's got any more purdikshuns...
roadrunner
I agree that the PCGS should focus first on those who ‘move metal.’ The adding of putty, however terrible, is typically much less harmful than moving, removing, and/or adding metal.
In my initial analysis of the lawsuit, after consulting with John Albanese, I discuss the number of people who may be engaging in coin doctoring activities.
Analysis of the PCGS Lawsuit Against Alleged Coin Doctors
Also, I have commented upon the developments in August regarding this lawsuit, and further discussed the topic of dipping:
Commentary on the latest developments in the PCGS lawsuit against alleged coin doctors
<< <i>
<< <i> "WHY DON'T I NAME NAMES?
First, I have a huge amount of respect for Laura Sperber's efforts regarding coin doctoring.
She's completely correct about PNG. Basically, PNG is really oriented to helping dealers and not collectors. Right now, as a collector, there is no professional organization that enforces dealer ethical behavior and serves to protect collectors.
If PNG, or some other organization, really enforced ethical behavior among dealers, then this coin collecting hobby would flourish. You dealers need to remember that its collectors, like me, that pay your bills. You coin dealers also need to understand that the bad-practices of a few dealers can significantly change the perception of all coin dealers. When coin collectors, like me, feel that we are frequently being scammed or ripped-off, then we will simply stop collecting.
Coin doctoring is reprehensible. You dealers need to stop it, which means you need to stop condoning coin-doctoring by protecting your fellow-dealers. >>
Is it just me, or is the wording of this post a bit offensive with "YOU DEALERS," followed by the "protecting" accusation? The truth of the matter is that it is everyone's responsibility to do whatever they can to rid the hobby of this ugly situation. Laura had many specific recommendations that all of us, whether collectors or dealers, can do. The "you dealers" comments simply circumvent personal responsibility and effort, in an attempt to lay the blame elsewhere. And by the way, you don't pay my bills. It is my hope that you will put personal effort into this by following at least some of the recommendations. But please, lose the "you dealers" vocabulary. It is a real turn-off.
Larry L.
Larry, let me state upfront, I don't like Laura and I will never buy a coin from Legend because of how I think they have treated me, on more than one occasion IMHO, when I've stopped by their table at a show.
OTOH, I will take issue with you and say that Laura is spot on in her comment re the totality of coin dealers who travel the coin show circuit throughout the country. These folks, probably IMHO, have a darn good idea who the doctors are. The average collector does not. It's the dealers who are in a business/industry that is "somewhat tarnished" (pun intended) and it is the dealers, I believe, who have to "(wo)man up," stand together and...united through the ANA, and possibly the various State's Attorneys General, to aid any and all criminal proceedings against these individuals and companies. Doctors tarnish all dealers and their industry, again IMHO, no matter how "good, well-known, trusted, (fill in the blank)" we think a particular dealer is.
It's not much different than the best way to get drugs out of a neighborhood...the people closest to the situation on a day to day basis (the ones who live there) need to join together and stand up for what's right. After that, they engage the po-po and the general public for their cause.
It's the coin dealers neighborhood, each and every one of them, individually (IMHO), including those who post here (again IMHO only) and if it's going to clean up, they should all man-up behind Laura on this one.