EDIT (Wednesday August 08, 2010): If I might be so bold as to inquire, did somebody just get axed? There was a reply just before this one to which I was directing this reply, and I don't see it around anymore, nor the dude. Funny...
<< <i>Interesting discussion. Whether or not they were test marks, what is the reason for having three prongs on an instrument like that? >>
IMO, there is none. They have to be considered chopmarks - because the only way to have all three prongs show is to punch straight in - which means they aren't taking any silver in a scooping or rotating motion - they're intentionally creating a design.
On mine, looking at the coin the center part of the mark is indented, but the three "prongs" have pushed the metal out slightly from the surface. It's an odd design and I agree that it does not seem it was for scooping out a bit of silver.
Also, "Dear PCGS": Please treat every other dollar of the world like you treat USA trade dollars! Why must 8R's, Brit T$s, China dollars, and all the others languish in 98 holders while USA T$s can be number graded?
That is a very good question PCGS....?!
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
When it comes Trade Dollars I listen, look and learn...from the best. As I understand there is a difference between a test and a certifying chop mark. Were not the test marks employed to at least determine that the silver was not just a thin jacket over another base metal?
Now whether every type of analysis done to a trade dollar or Reale can be constituted as a chop mark, this I do not know. Very interesting though. Carry on the crusade.
The quality of the photo of the affected area isn't that great even under zoom but it looks to me like the two blobs on either end are standing up above the planchet surface. I'd sure like to see closer photos of that area. It almost looks like solder or an attempt to fill in the hole to me. I can see how the edge would roll like that if there were a previous attempt to drill you'd certainly get that burr that seems to go around nearly half that area.
Right after that I've no idea how the two blobs got formed. I have a materials science background and worked extensively in the aviation industry on various types of metals and drilling procedures. I've seen plenty of drilled holes under magnification.
I'd leave the call on that to someone who has observed it both on the horizontal plane and vertical plane through heavy magnification. That photo doesn't reveal enough of the story. If you would get an angled shot of that under high res and a much closer shot of that area I think somebody could nail it.
My guess is a once very poorly attempt at drilling which left a burr and somebody maybe tried to either heat the burr or tried to fill in with silver or solder or something. That doesn't look like a tool mark to me.
Now that I'm re-electronated and have read all that's here, I'm still stuck on one point. I understand a chop mark to be a easily readable quick and dirty way of saying "Me likey/good specie" in Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. Chinese script spans all geographic boundaries of The Middle Kingdom. Only pronunciation and tonality differ by region and dialect. As in "I'm flying from N'awlins to the Bawl'mer show"
Numismatic knowledge seems irrelevant to this issue if my initial premise is valid. What Chinese characters are these marks supposed to represent. Are these marks the equivalent of the illiterate's "X"? His alias? Identity theft in the making? The Merchant formerly known as Prince? Is the Rosetta Stone in the British Museum or the Louvre?
Has anyone not a round-eye been asked. An Asian coin specialist?
How can those divots serve the puncher's intent? I think some of us want the punchee to speak a language that no Chinese merchant would understand. Ice-pick, Phillips head, three prong, sand wedge, whatever. IMNSHO if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, mayhaps someone's drinking Kool-Aid.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Ahhhh - well now we come to the crux of the matter. I agree with you that they are test marks - which historically have been accepted by chopmark collectors alongside chopmarks. AND some of the test marks have a three prong design to them - which I consider to be a CHOPMARK insofar as it contains a design. Semantics? Perhaps. But PCGS started out bodybagging chopmarks, then bodybagging coins with both chops and test marks and now slabs both of those. I'd like to see the three prong test marks accepted at least.
Even if we accept three prong test marks as such, I would not want to see then called "chopmarks". Perhaps PCGS should designate such coins as "Chopmarks w/ Test Marks"? Of course, that may be too logical to fit on the slab insert.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The use of chopmarks is not exclusive to Chinese merchant practice.
In Western culture the intaglio rings pressed into hot wax signified the identity of the sender. Opening governmental mail was a crime, The official status of the owner dictated the penalty for violating the seal. Used by not only Roman merchants but Roman consuls, physicians, merchants, tribunes, lawyers, magisters, generals, priests, princes and kings. And on.
Keeper of the King's Seal was more than a ceremonial position. It had grave security functions and physical possession of the seal and acccess to its use were often the most powerful tool in holding and exercising power.
Along with those mentioned above, the Great Seal of the United States is also a chop.
Pronged, beveled, schloned or bonged, if a contract of assuring full faith and credit for the value of specie is being made by application and acceptance of the round ingots, who in the transaction would allow their name to be so poorly spelled as to be unintelligible.
My name's Humbert and I give fair weight. This is the design of my mark attesting to that.
My name's Isaac Newton and I'm Master of the King's MInt. Counterfeit a coin and you utter a treason against my King. His portrait guarantees fair weight. You make him to be a liar and you die by hanging for messing with his good name in this land and his credit rating with other countries with whom we join into trade.
My name's Humbert and I give fair weight. I tell people how much gold my coins hold and I really like this eagle that goes on the side with my name. I wish that I could come up with some design for the back. At least these patterns of lines will keep people from scraping off the metal on the back.
My name's Chin Li of Shanghai. It's 1874 around here we don't use coins for expensive transactions. We do it by weight. Ah, a bag of 1000 of the round things made of silver the American use to trade with us. If I chop too many of the coins and the weight's not right my trading partners will think I'm trying to shortchange them. Next thing your know they won't be giving me 30 days float.
Chin Li has reported to the Merchant's League that he has taken as payment 700 of the round American silver whose marks he thought were good until he found out Chinese counterfeiters were making coins of the same sze but of lower silver content. I will buy back all my overgraded trade dollars at face and send my buybacks to the smelter and eat the loss. Do not accept any of them or you too will from suffer as I did.
When we're all done with the weight and purity testing of the new shipment I will have my oldest son bring me the hammer and the steel bar with the the raised lettering and our family name and town. Each time the boy strikes it I tell the world of my coin's virtue. The more who trust me the more business I can do. Here is my chop for all to see.
If it's not readable as discrete characters, how can it be part of the inprimatur identifying us as the guarantor who offers recourse.
It's not any part whatsoever of the actual chop. You are building a dictionary, not a taxonomy.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
<< <i>Ahhhh - well now we come to the crux of the matter. I agree with you that they are test marks - which historically have been accepted by chopmark collectors alongside chopmarks. AND some of the test marks have a three prong design to them - which I consider to be a CHOPMARK insofar as it contains a design. Semantics? Perhaps. But PCGS started out bodybagging chopmarks, then bodybagging coins with both chops and test marks and now slabs both of those. I'd like to see the three prong test marks accepted at least.
Even if we accept three prong test marks as such, I would not want to see then called "chopmarks". Perhaps PCGS should designate such coins as "Chopmarks w/ Test Marks"? Of course, that may be too logical to fit on the slab insert. >>
Does this particular coin have a three pronged mark? If it does I don't see it unless the indentations are in the pit and can't be seen in that particular photo. I must say the whole thing intrigues me. There is only one logical explanation for doing that to the coin and that is to check to make sure it is silver. So no matter what it has to be a test mark or chop mark or whatever the experts call it and probably should be attributed as such.
I'm more interested though in how that mark was made, especially how those two blobs were created. Metal only "smears" like that under certain circumstances. I took a class in Failure Analysis some years ago which is a really interesting field. But like I said before a better photo needs to be provided for anybody to weigh in with an expert opinion. I'm not sure really if anything less than high power magnification would suffice for seeing the tool marks or striations or whatever may be present.
I'm not sure it's a Chinese character or marking at all. I'm certainly no expert in Asian Languages but I have lived in Japan for about 13 years or so and Japanese borrows heavily from the Chinese and both cultures us a "Han" (stamp) for signature or marking. I've never seen anything remotely like that for a Chinese character, but that must be taken with a huge grain of salt. Again I'm no expert there by a long shot. But in metal working and tooling I am.
Comments
EDIT (Wednesday August 08, 2010): If I might be so bold as to inquire, did somebody just get axed? There was a reply just before this one to which I was directing this reply, and I don't see it around anymore, nor the dude. Funny...
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
<< <i>Interesting discussion. Whether or not they were test marks, what is the reason for having three prongs on an instrument like that? >>
IMO, there is none. They have to be considered chopmarks - because the only way to have all three prongs show is to punch straight in - which means they aren't taking any silver in a scooping or rotating motion - they're intentionally creating a design.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Camelot
That is a very good question PCGS....?!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I only have one chop marked Trade Dollar- PCGS did grade it -
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Now whether every type of analysis done to a trade dollar or Reale can be constituted as a chop mark, this I do not know. Very interesting though. Carry on the crusade.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Right after that I've no idea how the two blobs got formed. I have a materials science background and worked extensively in the aviation industry on various types of metals and drilling procedures. I've seen plenty of drilled holes under magnification.
I'd leave the call on that to someone who has observed it both on the horizontal plane and vertical plane through heavy magnification. That photo doesn't reveal enough of the story. If you would get an angled shot of that under high res and a much closer shot of that area I think somebody could nail it.
My guess is a once very poorly attempt at drilling which left a burr and somebody maybe tried to either heat the burr or tried to fill in with silver or solder or something. That doesn't look like a tool mark to me.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
Numismatic knowledge seems irrelevant to this issue if my initial premise is valid. What Chinese characters are these marks supposed to represent. Are these marks the equivalent of the illiterate's "X"? His alias? Identity theft in the making? The Merchant formerly known as Prince? Is the Rosetta Stone in the British Museum or the Louvre?
Has anyone not a round-eye been asked. An Asian coin specialist?
How can those divots serve the puncher's intent? I think some of us want the punchee to speak a language that no Chinese merchant would understand. Ice-pick, Phillips head, three prong, sand wedge, whatever. IMNSHO if the proof of the pudding is in the eating, mayhaps someone's drinking Kool-Aid.
Even if we accept three prong test marks as such, I would not want to see then called "chopmarks". Perhaps PCGS should designate such coins as "Chopmarks w/ Test Marks"? Of course, that may be too logical to fit on the slab insert.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In Western culture the intaglio rings pressed into hot wax signified the identity of the sender. Opening governmental mail was a crime, The official status of the owner dictated the penalty for violating the seal. Used by not only Roman merchants but Roman consuls, physicians, merchants, tribunes, lawyers, magisters, generals, priests, princes and kings. And on.
Keeper of the King's Seal was more than a ceremonial position. It had grave security functions and physical possession of the seal and acccess to its use were often the most powerful tool in holding and exercising power.
Along with those mentioned above, the Great Seal of the United States is also a chop.
Pronged, beveled, schloned or bonged, if a contract of assuring full faith and credit for the value of specie is being made by application
and acceptance of the round ingots, who in the transaction would allow their name to be so poorly spelled as to be unintelligible.
My name's Humbert and I give fair weight. This is the design of my mark attesting to that.
My name's Isaac Newton and I'm Master of the King's MInt. Counterfeit a coin and you utter a treason against my King. His portrait guarantees fair weight. You make him to be a liar and you die by hanging for messing with his good name in this land and his credit rating with other countries with whom we join into trade.
My name's Humbert and I give fair weight. I tell people how much gold my coins hold and I really like this eagle that goes on the side with my name. I wish that I could come up with some design for the back. At least these patterns of lines will keep people from scraping off the metal on the back.
My name's Chin Li of Shanghai. It's 1874 around here we don't use coins for expensive transactions. We do it by weight. Ah, a bag of 1000 of the round things made of silver the American use to trade with us. If I chop too many of the coins and the weight's not right my trading partners will think I'm trying to shortchange them. Next thing your know they won't be giving me 30 days float.
Chin Li has reported to the Merchant's League that he has taken as payment 700 of the round American silver whose marks he thought were good until he found out Chinese counterfeiters were making coins of the same sze but of lower silver content. I will buy back all my overgraded trade dollars at face and send my buybacks to the smelter and eat the loss. Do not accept any of them or you too will from suffer as I did.
When we're all done with the weight and purity testing of the new shipment I will have my oldest son bring me the hammer and the steel bar with the the raised lettering and our family name and town. Each time the boy strikes it I tell the world of my coin's virtue. The more who trust me the more business I can do. Here is my chop for all to see.
If it's not readable as discrete characters, how can it be part of the inprimatur identifying us as the guarantor who offers recourse.
It's not any part whatsoever of the actual chop. You are building a dictionary, not a taxonomy.
<< <i>Ahhhh - well now we come to the crux of the matter. I agree with you that they are test marks - which historically have been accepted by chopmark collectors alongside chopmarks. AND some of the test marks have a three prong design to them - which I consider to be a CHOPMARK insofar as it contains a design. Semantics? Perhaps. But PCGS started out bodybagging chopmarks, then bodybagging coins with both chops and test marks and now slabs both of those. I'd like to see the three prong test marks accepted at least.
Even if we accept three prong test marks as such, I would not want to see then called "chopmarks". Perhaps PCGS should designate such coins as "Chopmarks w/ Test Marks"? Of course, that may be too logical to fit on the slab insert. >>
Does this particular coin have a three pronged mark? If it does I don't see it unless the indentations are in the pit and can't be seen in that particular photo. I must say the whole thing intrigues me. There is only one logical explanation for doing that to the coin and that is to check to make sure it is silver. So no matter what it has to be a test mark or chop mark or whatever the experts call it and probably should be attributed as such.
I'm more interested though in how that mark was made, especially how those two blobs were created. Metal only "smears" like that under certain circumstances. I took a class in Failure Analysis some years ago which is a really interesting field. But like I said before a better photo needs to be provided for anybody to weigh in with an expert opinion. I'm not sure really if anything less than high power magnification would suffice for seeing the tool marks or striations or whatever may be present.
I'm not sure it's a Chinese character or marking at all. I'm certainly no expert in Asian Languages but I have lived in Japan for about 13 years or so and Japanese borrows heavily from the Chinese and both cultures us a "Han" (stamp) for signature or marking. I've never seen anything remotely like that for a Chinese character, but that must be taken with a huge grain of salt. Again I'm no expert there by a long shot. But in metal working and tooling I am.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.