The confusion comes from the fact that PCGS came out with PCGS Plus at the same time that they came out with the + grade for PQ coins. Basically my understanding is that PCGS Plus "scans" coins to establish the uniqueness of the coin at the time of scanning. This prevents counterfeiting, doctoring, etc. of that specific coin from that point forward. The + loosely equates to a CAC green sticker.
<< <i>Is there a stigma on the coins that end up in just a regular Secure Plus holder and not the Plus holder?
MJ >>
I think not. I see value in the SECURE part. Plus the inserts look nicer to me.
I often look at plussed coins and wonder whether they would have been graded higher, ie. next grade, had they been through a regular submission.
I often look at non-plussed Secure coins and wonder whether they were simply upgraded when the owner was just shooting for a plus.
I mean, Hell, if I submit a MS/PR65 coin in hopes of getting a plus, and then they go and put it into a 66 holder without a plus, there damn well better not be a stigma attached to that coin.
Take the coin and the number on the holder for what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. I will always continue to buy PCGS coins, Secure Plus or not, based on that. Duh.
<< <i>After a few months of operation I can tell you that a coin sumitted through Secure Plus has exactly the same chance of upgrading as a coin submitted through a Standard submission. We have the statistics to back that up. Among other things, Secure Plus is designed to stop altered coins from slipping through the process.
What I am referring to here are coins that are sent in as a Regrade (in either a Standard or Secure Plus holder). We can, and do, measure the results of this type of submission. I just read in another thread that someone sent an old MS65 coin in as a Regrade through Secure Plus and received an MS66+ grade. There are many such stories.
Regardless of the service you use PCGS will always do its best to reward your coin with the grade it deserves. Now with Secure Plus we can identify those coins that have been messed with between submissions. >>
Regarding this comment, is there ANYONE out there that has upgraded a coin already in a Secure Plus holder? ANYONE???
All other factors being equal (that is, two coins, both of the same grade, both by PCGS, and after factoring out "buying the coin, not the holder"), I would find myself somewhat predisposed in favor of a coin in a Secure Plus holder.
However, I do have to admit that, since my grading skills are still in training mode, I'm not trying to out-grade the experts when buying coins at the top of my budget, so my assumption when I buy a coin is that it's accurately graded as-is. I've done two or three regrades, from my Collectors Club specials, though the only coin I ever cracked out of a holder myself was one in an Accugrade slab--not a crack-out so much as a jailbreak. I've never cracked open a PCGS slab or one by any of the other major industry standards--my regrades were sent in in the slab.
Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
<< <i>anyone that has a clearer head about PCGS current grading after reading this thread ; please p.m me >>
I agree, after reading this thread I am more confused. If you have a questionable coin in a older PCGS holder , say at a MS62, worth around $1,000, PCGS price guide, and you send it in for secure plus review, and it turns out it was doctored in the past. I assume it comes back in a PCGS genuine holder with no grade or a much lower grade? And what percentage of your loss does PCGS pay you back if your coin is now worth $100? I don’t think I can afford to find out if some of my coins have been doctored
" say at a MS62, worth around $1,000, PCGS price guide, and you send it in for secure plus review, and it turns out it was doctored in the past. I assume it comes back in a PCGS genuine holder with no grade or a much lower grade? "
if you had an old holdered coin - and you want a Secure + holder (grade) , as far as I can tell ;
they don't have genuine Secure + holders ...........
Secure Plus detects doctoring >between< submissions.
it is not a doctoring detection device.
it simply stores a digital map of the coin and digital image.
the digital map will detect the coin on a re-submission and past the digital image compared to the current digital image will be used by the humans to detect any doctoring.
<< <i>here is a link to a MS66+ (non secure) PCGS coin , if you can -blow it up nice and big and see if you agree that it's almost a MS 67 coin .......
....I know the subject has been hashed over 'till I'm blue in the face - but it has never sat well with me ;
From the Collector's Club booklet sent to me when I joined (pre- Secure Plus era) :
to quote the back page , under "Reminders"
< Regrades
" If you have a PCGS - graded coin that you believe is undergraded, you can submit it through the Regrade service . Submit regrades in their original PCGS holders. The coins will be removed from their holders by PCGS and go through the grading process as raw coins. Your coin will then get holdered with either the same grade or with a higher grade in a new PCGS holder. You do not have the option of keeping the original holder "
Not one tiny mention that the grade could go down ......... yet PCGS now sez the coin could have always had the grade lowered , not to worry though
because your protected by the grading guareentee .
I choose to believe that in the old days - no way a regular regrade coin could get downgraded .........call me a fool
<< <i>"Do you think those marks are on the holder Paul?"
......there is very little doubt in my mind that those marks on the lower portion of Franklin's bust are absolutely on the coin . >>
Really? !!! oh boy, MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I choose to believe that in the old days - no way a regular regrade coin could get downgraded .........call me a fool
I won't call you a fool PawPaul, but you are wrong. This is nothing new. This type of situation rarely happens but it can.
over the past 20 years , I have sent in hundreds and hundreds of slabbed PCGS coins in for regrading ............ I never had ONE come back to me at a grade lower then the original one given .
For someone who has never had it happen, you seem to be obsessed with this concept. Has it happened to you or anyone you know?
FWIW, the dealers whose inventories I shop the most, Doug Winter, CRO, Mark Feld, and Legend, have had very few Secure Plus coins for sale over the last four or five months, since its inception. On the other hand, CAC stickers are quite common in these inventories. At least three of these dealers were early supporters of the CAC, and perhaps the Secure Plus shield and green bean are mutually exclusive (or treated as such in the marketplace). Perhaps in other dealers' inventories, in other specialties, and other price points, the SP shields are more common.
I am assembling a group of coins to send to PCGS for grading and was going through the decision process of whether or not to submit via the Secure Plus tier. Drawing from my past experience, I submitted three coins in the spring for Secure Plus crossover (including one Eliasberg considered by specialists to be the finest known of the issue and one Norweb that was down-crossed from an NGC holder). Of course, I did not get the plus bump, and now I have three coins that I consider to be high end for the grade, but the tag from PCGS tells me (and anyone who looks at the coin in the slab) otherwise. I would rather not broadcast this, and it is very tempting to recross the coins to standard blue label holders.
Needless to say, future submissions will be going to the regular service tier. The digital surface mapping is cool and perhaps an effective coin doctoring deterrent, but I am going to focus on what suits me and my collection and let others worry about the ills of the hobby.
<< <i>I am assembling a group of coins to send to PCGS for grading and was going through the decision process of whether or not to submit via the Secure Plus tier. Drawing from my past experience, I submitted three coins in the spring for Secure Plus crossover (including one Eliasberg considered by specialists to be the finest known of the issue and one Norweb that was down-crossed from an NGC holder). Of course, I did not get the plus bump, and now I have three coins that I consider to be high end for the grade, but the tag from PCGS tells me (and anyone who looks at the coin in the slab) otherwise. I would rather not broadcast this, and it is very tempting to recross the coins to standard blue label holders.
Needless to say, future submissions will be going to the regular service tier. The digital surface mapping is cool and perhaps an effective coin doctoring deterrent, but I am going to focus on what suits me and my collection and let others worry about the ills of the hobby. >>
That is an elegant summation of the crux of the SecurePlus Catch-22, RYK.
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
<< <i>I choose to believe that in the old days - no way a regular regrade coin could get downgraded .........call me a fool
I won't call you a fool PawPaul, but you are wrong. This is nothing new. This type of situation rarely happens but it can.
over the past 20 years , I have sent in hundreds and hundreds of slabbed PCGS coins in for regrading ............ I never had ONE come back to me at a grade lower then the original one given .
For someone who has never had it happen, you seem to be obsessed with this concept. Has it happened to you or anyone you know? >>
oh, I'm a fool alright - you can bank on that
....and although my slant on things can be skewed and obsessive , never underestimate my devotion to PCGS and it's principles .
It has never happened to me , nor anyone I know - I will give you that ........
But sometimes , when I'm in the closet , late at night , kneeling before my candle lit shrine , with yours and Mr. Halls pictures at the center .........
<< <i>I am assembling a group of coins to send to PCGS for grading and was going through the decision process of whether or not to submit via the Secure Plus tier. Drawing from my past experience, I submitted three coins in the spring for Secure Plus crossover (including one Eliasberg considered by specialists to be the finest known of the issue and one Norweb that was down-crossed from an NGC holder). Of course, I did not get the plus bump, and now I have three coins that I consider to be high end for the grade, but the tag from PCGS tells me (and anyone who looks at the coin in the slab) otherwise. I would rather not broadcast this, and it is very tempting to recross the coins to standard blue label holders.
Needless to say, future submissions will be going to the regular service tier. The digital surface mapping is cool and perhaps an effective coin doctoring deterrent, but I am going to focus on what suits me and my collection and let others worry about the ills of the hobby. >>
Precisely! My thoughts exactly.
The truth of the matter, with regard to Secure Plus, is that it benefits our host more than collectors (not that that's a bad thing). And for it to be successful there needs to be a massive move to Secure Plus such that resubmissions get caught.
As things stand now, it is easy to elude Secure Plus. Doctors can still work a Secure Plus coin (or any coin) and send it in for regular service grading. Shoot, even plus-grading is now available outside Secure Plus. Regular folks -- non-doctors, can submit and crackout/resubmit freely.
If you are concerned about catching thieves who've stolen your coins -- thieves dumb enough to submit to Secure Plus, then that is the grading service to choose now. If you want to ensure no one screws with your coins after you sell them (an interesting mentality) choose Secure Plus. For everything else, there is regular service.
Clearly, PCGS needs to move all grading to Secure Plus scanning for this to work. The sensible approach was to proceed slowly and carefully to avoid being overwhelmed, of course.
How long will it take before all submissions are fingerprinted and checked against the database before grading? Not long, is my guess. I'm all for it. Throw in images viewable with cert look-ups and that's real progress. Lance.
Comments
<< <i>Is there a stigma on the coins that end up in just a regular Secure Plus holder and not the Plus holder?
MJ >>
I think not. I see value in the SECURE part. Plus the inserts look nicer to me.
I often look at plussed coins and wonder whether they would have been graded higher, ie. next grade, had they been through a regular submission.
I often look at non-plussed Secure coins and wonder whether they were simply upgraded when the owner was just shooting for a plus.
I mean, Hell, if I submit a MS/PR65 coin in hopes of getting a plus, and then they go and put it into a 66 holder without a plus, there damn well better not be a stigma attached to that coin.
Take the coin and the number on the holder for what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. I will always continue to buy PCGS coins, Secure Plus or not, based on that. Duh.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>After a few months of operation I can tell you that a coin sumitted through Secure Plus has exactly the same chance of upgrading as a coin submitted through a Standard submission. We have the statistics to back that up. Among other things, Secure Plus is designed to stop altered coins from slipping through the process.
What I am referring to here are coins that are sent in as a Regrade (in either a Standard or Secure Plus holder). We can, and do, measure the results of this type of submission. I just read in another thread that someone sent an old MS65 coin in as a Regrade through Secure Plus and received an MS66+ grade. There are many such stories.
Regardless of the service you use PCGS will always do its best to reward your coin with the grade it deserves. Now with Secure Plus we can identify those coins that have been messed with between submissions. >>
Regarding this comment, is there ANYONE out there that has upgraded a coin already in a Secure Plus holder? ANYONE???
Don, do you have any record of such?
Empty Nest Collection
However, I do have to admit that, since my grading skills are still in training mode, I'm not trying to out-grade the experts when buying coins at the top of my budget, so my assumption when I buy a coin is that it's accurately graded as-is. I've done two or three regrades, from my Collectors Club specials, though the only coin I ever cracked out of a holder myself was one in an Accugrade slab--not a crack-out so much as a jailbreak. I've never cracked open a PCGS slab or one by any of the other major industry standards--my regrades were sent in in the slab.
<< <i>anyone that has a clearer head about PCGS current grading after reading this thread ; please p.m me >>
Personally, the more this is discussed, the more confusing it seems to get; even though it is clearly outlined in the submission guidelines.
The way I see it, insurance is always a wise purchase, especially when so much is invested in this "hobby."
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
MS 66+ coin @ Heritage
<< <i>anyone that has a clearer head about PCGS current grading after reading this thread ; please p.m me >>
I agree, after reading this thread I am more confused. If you have a questionable coin in a older PCGS holder , say at a MS62, worth around $1,000, PCGS price guide, and you send it in for secure plus review, and it turns out it was doctored in the past. I assume it comes back in a PCGS genuine holder with no grade or a much lower grade? And what percentage of your loss does PCGS pay you back if your coin is now worth $100? I don’t think I can afford to find out if some of my coins have been doctored
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>To make it more appealing to potential buyers in the future? >>
I agree with Mark's answer.
Many of us don't plan to keep our coins forever. >>
True, but ten years from now when China has made the Secure Plus holder you will need to get the NEW PCGS holder at that time.
The point is, something new and better is always around the corner. >>
if you had an old holdered coin - and you want a Secure + holder (grade) , as far as I can tell ;
they don't have genuine Secure + holders ...........
it is not a doctoring detection device.
it simply stores a digital map of the coin and digital image.
the digital map will detect the coin on a re-submission and past the digital image compared to the current digital image will be used by the humans to detect any doctoring.
come back to me at a grade lower then the original one given .
Now , the potential is there , yet the powers that be say that potential was ALWAYS there .............
How come for twenty years the possibility of a downgrade never even crossed my mind..........
and now , as of a couple months ago - I'm scared it could happen now ?
<< <i>here is a link to a MS66+ (non secure) PCGS coin , if you can -blow it up nice and big and see if you agree that it's almost a MS 67 coin .......
MS 66+ coin @ Heritage >>
Do you think those marks are on the holder Paul?
They surely can't be on the coin
From the Collector's Club booklet sent to me when I joined (pre- Secure Plus era) :
to quote the back page , under "Reminders"
< Regrades
" If you have a PCGS - graded coin that you believe is undergraded, you can submit it through the Regrade service . Submit regrades in their original PCGS holders. The coins will be removed from their holders by PCGS and go through the grading process as raw coins. Your coin will then get holdered with either
the same grade or with a higher grade in a new PCGS holder. You do not have the option of keeping the original holder "
Not one tiny mention that the grade could go down ......... yet PCGS now sez the coin could have always had the grade lowered , not to worry though
because your protected by the grading guareentee .
I choose to believe that in the old days - no way a regular regrade coin could get downgraded .........call me a fool
......there is very little doubt in my mind that those marks on the lower portion of Franklin's bust are absolutely on the coin .
<< <i>"Do you think those marks are on the holder Paul?"
......there is very little doubt in my mind that those marks on the lower portion of Franklin's bust are absolutely on the coin . >>
Really? !!! oh boy, MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I won't call you a fool PawPaul, but you are wrong. This is nothing new. This type of situation rarely happens but it can.
over the past 20 years , I have sent in hundreds and hundreds of slabbed PCGS coins in for regrading ............ I never had ONE come back to me at a grade lower then the original one given .
For someone who has never had it happen, you seem to be obsessed with this concept. Has it happened to you or anyone you know?
I am assembling a group of coins to send to PCGS for grading and was going through the decision process of whether or not to submit via the Secure Plus tier. Drawing from my past experience, I submitted three coins in the spring for Secure Plus crossover (including one Eliasberg considered by specialists to be the finest known of the issue and one Norweb that was down-crossed from an NGC holder). Of course, I did not get the plus bump, and now I have three coins that I consider to be high end for the grade, but the tag from PCGS tells me (and anyone who looks at the coin in the slab) otherwise. I would rather not broadcast this, and it is very tempting to recross the coins to standard blue label holders.
Needless to say, future submissions will be going to the regular service tier. The digital surface mapping is cool and perhaps an effective coin doctoring deterrent, but I am going to focus on what suits me and my collection and let others worry about the ills of the hobby.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>I am assembling a group of coins to send to PCGS for grading and was going through the decision process of whether or not to submit via the Secure Plus tier. Drawing from my past experience, I submitted three coins in the spring for Secure Plus crossover (including one Eliasberg considered by specialists to be the finest known of the issue and one Norweb that was down-crossed from an NGC holder). Of course, I did not get the plus bump, and now I have three coins that I consider to be high end for the grade, but the tag from PCGS tells me (and anyone who looks at the coin in the slab) otherwise. I would rather not broadcast this, and it is very tempting to recross the coins to standard blue label holders.
Needless to say, future submissions will be going to the regular service tier. The digital surface mapping is cool and perhaps an effective coin doctoring deterrent, but I am going to focus on what suits me and my collection and let others worry about the ills of the hobby. >>
That is an elegant summation of the crux of the SecurePlus Catch-22, RYK.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>I choose to believe that in the old days - no way a regular regrade coin could get downgraded .........call me a fool
I won't call you a fool PawPaul, but you are wrong. This is nothing new. This type of situation rarely happens but it can.
over the past 20 years , I have sent in hundreds and hundreds of slabbed PCGS coins in for regrading ............ I never had ONE come back to me at a grade lower then the original one given .
For someone who has never had it happen, you seem to be obsessed with this concept. Has it happened to you or anyone you know? >>
oh, I'm a fool alright - you can bank on that
....and although my slant on things can be skewed and obsessive , never underestimate my devotion to PCGS and it's principles .
It has never happened to me , nor anyone I know - I will give you that ........
But sometimes , when I'm in the closet , late at night , kneeling before my candle lit shrine , with yours and Mr. Halls pictures at the center .........
the possibility creeps into my mind
<< <i>I am assembling a group of coins to send to PCGS for grading and was going through the decision process of whether or not to submit via the Secure Plus tier. Drawing from my past experience, I submitted three coins in the spring for Secure Plus crossover (including one Eliasberg considered by specialists to be the finest known of the issue and one Norweb that was down-crossed from an NGC holder). Of course, I did not get the plus bump, and now I have three coins that I consider to be high end for the grade, but the tag from PCGS tells me (and anyone who looks at the coin in the slab) otherwise. I would rather not broadcast this, and it is very tempting to recross the coins to standard blue label holders.
Needless to say, future submissions will be going to the regular service tier. The digital surface mapping is cool and perhaps an effective coin doctoring deterrent, but I am going to focus on what suits me and my collection and let others worry about the ills of the hobby. >>
Precisely! My thoughts exactly.
The truth of the matter, with regard to Secure Plus, is that it benefits our host more than collectors (not that that's a bad thing). And for it to be successful there needs to be a massive move to Secure Plus such that resubmissions get caught.
As things stand now, it is easy to elude Secure Plus. Doctors can still work a Secure Plus coin (or any coin) and send it in for regular service grading. Shoot, even plus-grading is now available outside Secure Plus. Regular folks -- non-doctors, can submit and crackout/resubmit freely.
If you are concerned about catching thieves who've stolen your coins -- thieves dumb enough to submit to Secure Plus, then that is the grading service to choose now. If you want to ensure no one screws with your coins after you sell them (an interesting mentality) choose Secure Plus. For everything else, there is regular service.
Clearly, PCGS needs to move all grading to Secure Plus scanning for this to work. The sensible approach was to proceed slowly and carefully to avoid being overwhelmed, of course.
How long will it take before all submissions are fingerprinted and checked against the database before grading? Not long, is my guess. I'm all for it. Throw in images viewable with cert look-ups and that's real progress.
Lance.