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Why submit Secure Plus?
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have admittedly been out of the loupe [sic] for a while, and perhaps this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. If so, please point me to the relevant thread.
If not, why would one spend an extra $15 to submit a coin for Secure Plus? I understand that PCGS keeps a digital permanent record of the surface of the coin as an anti-doctoring deterrent, etc., but as a collector who already owns the coin, this should matter little.
If not, why would one spend an extra $15 to submit a coin for Secure Plus? I understand that PCGS keeps a digital permanent record of the surface of the coin as an anti-doctoring deterrent, etc., but as a collector who already owns the coin, this should matter little.
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I do like as a collector having the added security of knowing that the coin has been "fingerprinted," and that once I register it with the Set Registry, it can be traced if stolen and identified if re-scanned, assuming the thief or subsequent takers end up submitting the coin to PCGS for grading. (This benefit would mean a lot more if the coin scanner manufacturer could negotiate a way to license the technology with NGC and ANACS as well.)
<< <i>...BEcause it's a mere 15$ to have your coin(s) possibly go up a 1/2 grade ? >>
... or possibly go down a grade.
So a standard PCGS slab offers no protection against coin doctoring?
...BEcause it's a mere 15$ to have your coin(s) possibly go up a 1/2 grade ?
Either you missed the memo or I misunderstood it. I believe the non-Secure Plus grading tiers are now eligible for the "+".
......or end up in a body bag !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>To make it more appealing to potential buyers in the future? >>
I agree with Mark's answer.
Many of us don't plan to keep our coins forever.
<< <i>I just submitted a abust dime to PCGS under the regular service that has a great pedigree easily going back 15+ year where in which the coin matches the cataolg's photo spot on and one can easily see that the bustie is totally original ie darkly and naturally toned where it subdues the luster (it has cartwheel luster btw but if dipped it would have great great luster). It came back AU58, I am certain it would have plussed, but what is the difference I won't be selling this coin during my lifetime so as much as I agree with Mark's comment about resale value, secure plus isn't necessary. I don't need any high tech sniffing tecnology tell me what I already know, that it is 100% original imho. >>
Sorry to transgress on this thread, but IMO a darkly toned coin will not come back with great great luster upon being dipped.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
you mean now that the hoi polloi can get a plus....
<< <i>
<< <i>To make it more appealing to potential buyers in the future? >>
I agree with Mark's answer.
Many of us don't plan to keep our coins forever. >>
True, but ten years from now when China has made the Secure Plus holder you will need to get the NEW PCGS holder at that time.
The point is, something new and better is always around the corner.
EAC 6024
It comes down to confidence when buying and selling.
Collectors for years have been begging the TPG's
to do something about counterfeiting and coin doctoring.
PCGS did and now everyone accuses them of doing nothing more than padding there bottom line?
I have considered sending all my coins in for secure plus grading
and its not because I am looking for a plus grade.
To help support our beloved host and to help keep them in the black so that we all may continue to submit coins for grading and continue to surf this Forum that we all LOVE
GrandAm
I don't think it will take anywhere near that long.
Welcome back.
In my humble opinion the +'s, the star's. the bean's are all geared toward selling the coin to
an insecure buyer or possibly an investor who can not come to a personal conclusion regarding a
coins value/grade.
If one needs to be sure a coin has a value corresponding to a given grade we have
been led to believe that the collector "needs" to buy the coin in a top tier TPG holder.
Well, this used to be sufficient. Now we are being led to believe ( well some of us are being
led to believe ) that a coin now has to have all this extra stuff in addition to the top TPG plastic.
You know where I am going with this so I will stop, but understand that I do not want this
to lead some coin newbies or young kids to believe that a coin is any more or any less than what it is due to
the inclusion or lack thereof of all these .... fill in the blanks .... bells and whistles attached to an already
expensive piece of plastic surrounding/protecting a coin.
<< <i>True, but ten years from now when China has made the Secure Plus holder you will need to get the NEW PCGS holder at that time.
I don't think it will take anywhere near that long. >>
Your right, I was just throwing a number out there. But you see my point.
Our PCGS holders are being copied left and right. Thats not a real SECURE feeling.
EAC 6024
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
MJ , whats manscaping?
EAC 6024
<< <i>I dont think so, its still just an opinion.
MJ , whats manscaping?
Those who spend too much time shaving below the Adam's apple have too much time. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
EAC 6024
That's a damn good question. Does the market perceive a non secure MS-65 as worth more than a secure MS-65. How is the market reacting in general?
EAC 6024
<< <i>Justacommeman said "Is there a stigma on the coins that end up in just a regular Secure Plus holder and not the Plus holder?"
That's a damn good question. Does the market perceive a non secure MS-65 as worth more than a secure MS-65. How is the market reacting in general? >>
I agree that is a good question and the question you tacked on leads one who owns non secure MS 65 coins to at least always wonder if it can plus and thereby possibly add some additional value in the asking price versus a MS 65 coin in a secure plus holder that failed to plus.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I think MJ was talking about a Secure Plus 65 vs a Secure Plus 65+ >>
Actually, I was speaking of regular Secure Plus (non plus) holders vs Older PCGS slabs of the same grade. ( Secure Plus + coins do sell for a premium )
Thinking being that Secure Plus (non plus) coins in theory will never be able to be upgraded or extremely difficult at the very least. Older slabs can alway be presented as "shot upgrades" in theory and therefore presented as PQ by the seller.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>I think MJ was talking about a Secure Plus 65 vs a Secure Plus 65+ >>
Actually, I was speaking of regular Secure Plus (non plus) holders vs Older PCGS slabs of the same grade. ( Secure Plus + coins do sell for a premium )
Thinking being that Secure Plus (non plus) coins in theory will never be able to be upgraded or extremely difficult at the very least. Older slabs can alway be presented as "shot upgrades" in theory and therefore presented as PQ by the seller.
MJ >>
Yes, thanks for clearing that up for me. I can see your point on this but its still an opinion of its grade 65 or 65+. I remember a thread where someone posted a coin with a + that few people agreed with. I think even Don W. blasted us for not thinking it was a + or "PQ". That was just our opinion and I would hate to think just because it doesnt have a + that its held in some cloud.
EAC 6024
SecurePlus does not address counterfeiting.
...BEcause it's a mere 15$ to have your coin(s) possibly go up a 1/2 grade ?
Regular service does the same thing (now).
A coin holdered Secure Plus has additional protections in place to ensure that it is not doctored.
Yes, for the second time through when the computer flags the coin as having been submitted before.
Is there a stigma on the coins that end up in just a regular Secure Plus holder and not the Plus holder?
This thought was raised within hours after the "big one" announcement. My feeling is "not at all". Maybe just the opposite because a lot of Secure Plus submissions have been superior coins that owners hope will bump up. Inferior coins (for the grade) are not as likely to be submitted for the service and will remain in the older holders.
Lance.
<Secure Plus 65+ and a plain 65+>
What's a plain 65+ ?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>RYK
<Secure Plus 65+ and a plain 65+>
What's a plain 65+ ?
MJ >>
Didn't CU change the rules and start awarding the + on standard submissions? Or was that email in a dream? Text
<< <i>
<< <i>RYK
<Secure Plus 65+ and a plain 65+>
What's a plain 65+ ?
MJ >>
Didn't CU change the rules and start awarding the + on standard submissions? Or was that email in a dream? Text >>
Yes, they did. But there is only one Secure PLUS + slab, right? If you send it in on a regular submission and it doesn't cross it comes back in the same holder I believe. I'm unsure if they are "fingerprinting" these coins or not. Hope this makes sense and someone please correct me if I erred. Under regular raw submissions I'm asumming they are using the old slab . I'm I wrong? MJ
edited for spelling and for additional text and clarity
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>My question is what is the difference between a Secure Plus 65+ and a plain 65+, and is there a stigma for the Secure Plus 65 (no plus)? >>
No difference, I think, as far as market value is concerned. And I posted above my feeling about a stigma.
Plus grading for regular submissions will cut back on Secure Plus grading, IMO. Those who use Secure Plus are folks who care about theft deterrence and perceive some added value to Secure Plus. Frankly, I am struggling with that. I believe Secure Plus is PCGS's way of getting a handle on resubmissions of doctored coins.
I wish PCGS would address counterfeiting...coins and slabs. I am sorely disappointed that wasn't the thrust of The Big One.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>My question is what is the difference between a Secure Plus 65+ and a plain 65+, and is there a stigma for the Secure Plus 65 (no plus)? >>
No difference, I think, as far as market value is concerned. And I posted above my feeling about a stigma.
Lance. >>
Wow, I had no idea there was a plain 65+. RYK, you were on vacation from all of this and still got it right. I feel confused. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>RYK
<Secure Plus 65+ and a plain 65+>
What's a plain 65+ ?
MJ >>
Didn't CU change the rules and start awarding the + on standard submissions? Or was that email in a dream? Text >>
Yes, they did. But there is only one Secure PLUS + slab, right? If you send it in on a regular submission and it doesn't cross it comes back in the same holder I believe. I'm unsure if they are "fingerprinting" these coins or not. Hope this makes sense and someone please correct me if I erred. Under regular raw submissions I'm asumming they are using the old slab . I'm I wrong? MJ
edited for spelling and for additional text and clarity >>
It might be tough to determine if the overall market is seeing any difference when we who might be considered most likely to read and listen to PCGS announcements can't even communicate with one another anymore about what grade and slab option contains what coin.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
There are always exceptions. For instance the Ed Milas mint sets of the 1850's that he broke up in 1988 were generally dark dark coins, some even jet black....that had to be dipped. Most or all of them came back blazing white and grading 65 to 67. Those were amazing coins for the time... or for any time. I believe the PCGS MS66 1853 NA 25c I purchased in the early 1990's was from that group of sets. The coin was full white when I got it but after about 10 yrs started to show light brown around the peripherals.
That 1827 dime doesn't appear to be too darkly toned, however the luster does look to be quite muted.
roadrunner
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>After reading more of this thread, why am I thinking all these added notations will encourage more dipping of original coins.
Leo >>
Please, no dipping.
Let me refocus the question:
Would you rather try for the + with Secure Plus and end up with a coin in a slab that marks it as not + OR submit via the regular service tier and not mark your coin as one that did not get the + ?
<< <i>I have seen very few coins offered by my dealers in Secure Plus slabs.
Let me refocus the question:
Would you rather try for the + with Secure Plus and end up with a coin in a slab that marks it as not + OR submit via the regular service tier and not mark your coin as one that did not get the + ? >>
If the "regular" slab provides no clue to its recent grading, then yes, the regular service makes more sense. If there is some way to determine that it has been recently graded (and missed the plus) then there is no difference.
Said another way, Secure Plus makes it apparent whether a coin made the bump or not. If the regular service is transparent (vis a vis the old service) then it is a better option.
Lance.
After a few months of operation I can tell you that a coin sumitted through Secure Plus has exactly the same chance of upgrading as a coin submitted through a Standard submission. We have the statistics to back that up. Among other things, Secure Plus is designed to stop altered coins from slipping through the process.
What I am referring to here are coins that are sent in as a Regrade (in either a Standard or Secure Plus holder). We can, and do, measure the results of this type of submission. I just read in another thread that someone sent an old MS65 coin in as a Regrade through Secure Plus and received an MS66+ grade. There are many such stories.
Regardless of the service you use PCGS will always do its best to reward your coin with the grade it deserves. Now with Secure Plus we can identify those coins that have been messed with between submissions.
<< <i>
<< <i>To make it more appealing to potential buyers in the future? >>
I agree with Mark's answer.
Many of us don't plan to keep our coins forever. >>
I don't necessarily disagree, but does the true benefit of the holder come through on collector to collector transactions only, and not collector to dealer transactions (in other words, does a professional dealer need to rely less on the holder and the security it offers)?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I can still understand why some would submit other coins for Secure Plus if there is any doubt as to whether a coin has been doctored.
What I don't get is the new PCGS Offer to have coins added to their CoinFacts condition census. They'll take your top pop coins in for reholdering in a Secure Plus and also take nice pics of the coin to use for CoinFacts. However, it doesn't appear that they are regrading the coin so you know your coin will come back without a chance at a plus, even if deserving... doesn't seem to make sense and it'll make Coin Facts inaccurate if a top pop MS66 I send in would really regrade MS66+ or higher.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>I submitted a toned gold coin that I had that was in an OGH for Secure Plus regrade service. Sure, getting a plus or an upgrade would have been nice, but I'm still glad I ran it through Secure Plus because now I'm more confident that the toning is natural and that the coin hasn't been messed with.
I can still understand why some would submit other coins for Secure Plus if there is any doubt as to whether a coin has been doctored. >>
Secure Plus identifies doctoring on regrades. That is, on coins that have already been through Secure Plus. A fingerprint exists for comparison purposes.
Secure Plus offers no advantage over regular service with regard to determining NT vs. AT or other doctoring acts. So I am not sure why anyone would feel more confident about a coin's originality merely because it has been scanned by Secure Plus and entered into the database.
That said, I am not sure I understand the "sniffer", when it is used (all services? randomly? only Secure Plus?), or PCGS's direction with it.
Lance.