Cud on this 1874 $1 gold?
konsole
Posts: 795 ✭✭✭
On the reverse of this piece, the 2 what look like flowers that point towards each other at the top of the coin, the flower on the left looks like it has a large cud over it because its suppose to look exactly like the other flower.
What do you guys think? Cud or grease filled die or what?
What do you guys think? Cud or grease filled die or what?
0
Comments
in the area in question.
in my opinion. It appears to be authentic.
bob
Can you post an obverse shot? especially showing the LIBERTY area on the headdress? 1874 coins often have incomplete lettering here, but thats not a general rule as some have more than others...originally this was noted as a variety but after awhile that went away.
BTW Ive looked a quite a few T2 and T3 gold dollars and have never seen anything like this on a genuine coin. FWIW
since its not holdered....what does the reeding look like? Is it delicate and even, with a rounding?
The image you posted has a very greenish cast, is that just in youre color balance? Does the overall color of this coin match similar gold coins you may have, or is the color shown true?
- I don't see any mention of the feature listed in all of the Type 3 coins listed in the book nor in the "rules or thumb".
- None of the 1874's listed in the book show a dot near the "R"
- As you can see only L and part of I are visible in LIBERTY
- The reeding looks fine, nice and even
- The color appears fine also
Bill lists alot of "depressions" in his book and less frequently lists "blemishes" but the blemishes are never as large as on this coin. I think its just like AUandAG said. The rest of the features that you say look suspicious are probably from a worn out die and maybe a weak strike. Its dimensions and weight are correct so I highly doubt its fake, just a clean coin with maybe light circulation and or maybe from an abused die.
Just...keep in mind its very easy to explain away things that look "odd" but some things such as that pesky little dot above the serif...that turned out to be a MAIN diagnostic on an 1858 I was burned on, along with the weakness of the wreath. There is a depression on the neck on the obverse too...together with a raised dot on the bottom of the T.
Plus, that big thing on the flower top.....
Heres a reverse on an 1876, while this is a low mintage (3200) coin it is acknowledged to have a weak strike which is shown by the lack of those vertical lines on the ribbon knot. But...not how overall the bulk and strength of the wreath, especially the corn and the lower part, just seems massive compared to your coin.
LIke I said, you may be just fine but that blooming plastic, sure does give one a nice feeling with these coins. Maybe Im mixing up what I seen in my lonseome john book and what I seen in Fivaz...will check tomorrow.
have the raised bumps that the fakes have. John Devine (Lonesome John) in his book
on gold counterfeits has this coin pictured in plate #198 and the fake (very similar) is
plate #201. Pages 120-122.
Still think it's just the die deterioration that caused what you see.
bob
I've never seen a gold dollar like that, but it does appear authentic to my eye.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
LOL now that we have once again had our fair share of counterfeit talk, maybe we can get back to talking about what that blob is on the corn. :-)
...as for the "blob". No doubt one die had damage, and was used to strike a portion of the 120 thousand or so mintage. However many coins were made, from that die...about 2 percent survive. ONE of the survivors was even used as a copy coin for a die which was used for counterfeits, hence this discussion.
You can view it as a variety, no doubt, but I do not feel it enhances the value of the coin.
1874 gold dollars were stuck when no other one dollar coin was minted in this country. It holds a special place in our history because of that fact. Ive seen these in stunning well struck prooflike condition with joined wreath tops and sharp features, and Ive also seen them with worn dies and lack of luster. Just another illustration of how many faces these coins can present to us.
Breen has spoken........
Longacre actually cut the ear of corn at the top and stuffed it with a cottom leaves and a cotton boll. Below the main corn husk is some wheat and tobbaco.
BTW, the LIBERTY was applied to the hub (not part of the master die), so variations will carry over from year to year. Sometimes light, sometimes heavy. However a heavilly polished die would efface the LIBERTY, since on the die it is raised and very much exposed.
I dunno. Ive seen a good number of gold dollars and things like this dont seem to occur on the dies. Clash related damage, die cracks, lapping issues....but nothing like the blob thing.
Now, Rick, yore moving me out of the Genuine camp again
Perhaps this is a coin which should be submitted to either ANACS PCGS or NGC for a determination. Im sure they have seen this before, especially ANACS.
If you have the coin in hand, compare the edges with a known real one from the same era. Is the edge reeding supersharp? Y=cft. Is the reed-count is the same? Y=real.
<< <i>They don't match, but 1857 and 1874 are likely to far apart to match the collars. The reeds look too sharp on the top one though. >>
Ya I know they dont match perfectly, I only threw in the 1857 to give a ballpark comparison. You think the top one's reeding is too sharp huh? Maybe the slightly fuzzy pictures of the reeding is making your analysis a bit skewed?
<< <i>
<< <i>They don't match, but 1857 and 1874 are likely to far apart to match the collars. The reeds look too sharp on the top one though. >>
Ya I know they dont match perfectly, I only threw in the 1857 to give a ballpark comparison. You think the top one's reeding is too sharp huh? >>
Both sets of reeding look fine to me. The sharper reeding may be the result of a new collar and/or a better strike. I've seen 1874 gold dollars with the flaws mentioned (blob on corn tassel, missing LIBERTY on headband, etc) in both NGC and PCGS slabs. I've also seen these features on counterfeits which can be easily explained by the fact that counterfeiters use real coins (defects and all) to create their dies. These defects are transferred from the real coin to the false die and then to the fake coins struck by that die. If you are worried about the authenticity of this coin, submit it to NGC or PCGS. Another option would be to take it to a large show and show it to some dealers that specialize in gold.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The presence of LIBERTY or lack of is not a determinant of being a counterfeit, it is just used to identify die characteristics.
<< <i>FWIW Fivaz does illustrate that dot on top of the serif of R in dollar as a counterfeit diagnostic on 1887 and that WAS on a fake 1858 I had some time ago...which also showed a weakly struck lower wreath. Submit it >>
ya I see that on pg 42. and he also says that the reverse die shown on that page is found on many other counterfeits. It doesnt have the depression on "1" though
<< <i>FWIW Fivaz does illustrate that dot on top of the serif of R in dollar as a counterfeit diagnostic on 1887 and that WAS on a fake 1858 I had some time ago...which also showed a weakly struck lower wreath. Submit it >>
Do you still have any pictures of that 1858 that you had?
<< <i>Breen lists this as a counterfeit from the 1960's. Read under Breen:6093. >>
Can you by any chance take some close-up pictures of the coin he shows in the book?
Submit it and know for sure.
TD
No those pics were on another computer and I lost all those images last year.
ebay link
- same dot to the left of "R"
- same glob at the same place on the tassel
- same amount of "C" in AMERICA faded out and the letter as a whole similarly weak
- same amount of LIBERTY showing with all of "L" and part of "I"
- same sharp spaced out dentils on the obverse and bad dentils quality on the reverse
- neither have any clashing
and the linked coin came in at PCGS MS-64
<< <i>looky looky what I found...
ebay link
- same dot to the left of "R"
- same glob at the same place on the tassel
- same amount of "C" in AMERICA faded out and the letter as a whole similarly weak
- same amount of LIBERTY showing with all of "L" and part of "I"
- same sharp spaced out dentils on the obverse and bad dentils quality on the reverse
- neither have any clashing
and the linked coin came in at PCGS MS-64 >>
Are you sure that's a real slab?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
OK......back to an earlier post I made, regarding what lonesome John had said, the genuine version has a strongly impressed T and A in States...as does your coin, and also the PCGS slabbed example. At that point in the discussion, I was in the genuine camp because of that dagnostic.
Again, you do need to submit this to really get an answer you can trust. Funny thing...you may go through all this trouble, and then have it come back "cleaned"...(we never discussed that, did we?)
Perry, the Cert checks out...and I thought you were in the genuine camp. at least you were at three am one day
<< <i>I suppose after all this...you will be moving into the presidential dollar series, eh?
OK......back to an earlier post I made, regarding what lonesome John had said, the genuine version has a strongly impressed T and A in States...as does your coin, and also the PCGS slabbed example. At that point in the discussion, I was in the genuine camp because of that dagnostic.
Again, you do need to submit this to really get an answer you can trust. Funny thing...you may go through all this trouble, and then have it come back "cleaned"...(we never discussed that, did we?)
Perry, the Cert checks out...and I thought you were in the genuine camp. at least you were at three am one day
I am in the genuine camp. Didn't you see the winky on my post?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>looky looky what I found...
ebay link
- same dot to the left of "R"
- same glob at the same place on the tassel
- same amount of "C" in AMERICA faded out and the letter as a whole similarly weak
- same amount of LIBERTY showing with all of "L" and part of "I"
- same sharp spaced out dentils on the obverse and bad dentils quality on the reverse
- neither have any clashing
and the linked coin came in at PCGS MS-64 >>
>>
With all due respect, that's why you shouldn't put too much faith in "experts" on a forum (or Breen for that matter).
Send it to PCGS or have it viewed in-hand by an expert -- personally, I would lean towards the former as PCGS puts its money where its mouth is.
Sincerely...Mike (whose avatar was found on eBay in 2005 and now sits in PCGS 65 plastic)
We cannot always "send things off to PCGS" but we can look them up in reference texts and compare archived photographs (and ebay sales). While it would certainly be a lot of work, Heritage has sold this rather common coin 371 times and no doubt someone with enough free time can go through all those auctions to try to put a little more truth into this equation.
Personally, I love discussions like this. It stimulates the mind and increases our collecting knowledge.
that's why you shouldn't put too much faith in "experts" on a forum
Hey, thanks Mike. If you insult everyone who speaks up, you'll find yourself all alone.
ANACS has the following population figures
Date Type Variety Mint Denom Designation Total 1-3 4-6 8-10 12-15 20-35 40-45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
1874 TYPE 3 $1 MS 560 1 1 5 5 10 53 58 11 84 123 48 70 52 15 6 2 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 $1 MSOP 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 $1 MSPL 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 BREEN-6093 $1 MS 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 BREEN-6094 $1 MS 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
As Rick noted...Breen 6093 is noted as a counterfeit, though from the population figures above it appears that ANACS at least is using this number as a genuine coin number, My copy of breens encyclopedia is not in front of me at present, so I am unable to determine if in some way he also uses this number as a genuine coin number, or just as a designation for the counterfeit. (though I do not think he would be numbering fakes....)
Heritage has one sale of Breen 6093, obviously a genuine coin (since it is slabbed).
http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=432&Lot_No=1647&src=pr
The following coin shows up as Breen 6094
http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=450&Lot_No=1556?url=http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=450&Lot_No=1556#Photo
the plot thickens as one compares images of the Heritage coins with the OP coin.....in that the strongly struck examples sold there do not seem to match the weakly struck reverse of the OP coin, especially in the details of the lower wreath. As near as I can see....and I may be wrong with this, neither example show the Dot above the lower left serif of the R
Not that any of this is getting the OP any closer to determining the authenticity of his coin. All this is showing is that there is a definite "maybe'" here, and that maybe can slant either way.
I state again....you do need to submit this to a TPG to get a determination you can trust. Not to show a prejudice here, but ANACS may be best in this case since they have designated both of these Breen numbers in the past, and have an extensive archive of counterfeit material to consult.
heres your submission form...get your printer and charge card ready and PLEASE let us know the outcome.
http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/SubmissionForm.aspx
The GOOD news is...providing the coin is determined to be authentic, as you can see from the ANACS pop numbers, it is a rather scarce variety and though gold dollar varieties for the most part do not command premium values (why?) at least you will have an interesting coin.
Curiously conspicuous by his absence on this thread.....I would like to hear Mark Felds opinion here. Im sure in his experience he has came across many 1874 gold dollars.......and no doubt seen both counterfeit and genuine examples.
No, the listing under Breen 6093 describes this die as a counterfeit made in the 1960's. Not the 6093 listing. If Console wants a sure opinion, he should send it in. It will probably get it in a "Genuine" holder, if not graded.
Edited to clarify: 6094. It clearly directs the reader to the text. Who says Breen is always right, But he is not always wrong either. You need a contemporary confirmation, IMO.
<< <i>It appears the OP has taken this coin ATS and garnered a few opinions there regarding authenticity. Again....some like it, some do not. Most replies there seem based on opinion rather than any research, though it seems a few experienced collectors are leaning more toward counterfeit.....
ANACS has the following population figures
Date Type Variety Mint Denom Designation Total 1-3 4-6 8-10 12-15 20-35 40-45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70
1874 TYPE 3 $1 MS 560 1 1 5 5 10 53 58 11 84 123 48 70 52 15 6 2 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 $1 MSOP 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 $1 MSPL 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 BREEN-6093 $1 MS 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1874 TYPE 3 BREEN-6094 $1 MS 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
As Rick noted...Breen 6093 is noted as a counterfeit, though from the population figures above it appears that ANACS at least is using this number as a genuine coin number, My copy of breens encyclopedia is not in front of me at present, so I am unable to determine if in some way he also uses this number as a genuine coin number, or just as a designation for the counterfeit. (though I do not think he would be numbering fakes....)
Heritage has one sale of Breen 6093, obviously a genuine coin (since it is slabbed).
http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=432&Lot_No=1647&src=pr
The following coin shows up as Breen 6094
http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=450&Lot_No=1556?url=http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=450&Lot_No=1556#Photo
the plot thickens as one compares images of the Heritage coins with the OP coin.....in that the strongly struck examples sold there do not seem to match the weakly struck reverse of the OP coin, especially in the details of the lower wreath. As near as I can see....and I may be wrong with this, neither example show the Dot above the lower left serif of the R
Not that any of this is getting the OP any closer to determining the authenticity of his coin. All this is showing is that there is a definite "maybe'" here, and that maybe can slant either way.
I state again....you do need to submit this to a TPG to get a determination you can trust. Not to show a prejudice here, but ANACS may be best in this case since they have designated both of these Breen numbers in the past, and have an extensive archive of counterfeit material to consult.
heres your submission form...get your printer and charge card ready and PLEASE let us know the outcome.
http://www.anacs.com/contentPages/SubmissionForm.aspx
The GOOD news is...providing the coin is determined to be authentic, as you can see from the ANACS pop numbers, it is a rather scarce variety and though gold dollar varieties for the most part do not command premium values (why?) at least you will have an interesting coin.
Curiously conspicuous by his absence on this thread.....I would like to hear Mark Felds opinion here. Im sure in his experience he has came across many 1874 gold dollars.......and no doubt seen both counterfeit and genuine examples. >>
I wasn't going to post to this thread, since there are already plenty of other opinions. But. my guess is that the coin is genuine.
I don't typically look at specifics, but rather, at how the overall appearance of the coin hits me. And that usually serves me well. Also, a lot of times, I'm not even sure precisely why a coin looks bad to me - it just does. Somehow, information is transmitted from my eyes to my brain to give me an answer, even if I dont know what I picked up on. How's that for scientific?
And I think many numismatists would be able to give a firm answer if they were to see the coin in hand, meaning it probably need not be submitted to a grading company for authentication.
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4225458&fpart=3
One very valid point a forum member over there made was in regards to standard reed counts on these coins. I only have a few unslabbed specimes but they are unquestionably genuine and tomorrow I will get my super duper magnifying goggles on and count reeds. Hopefully our OP will do likewise on the 1874 and lets see what we have.
I dont think Ive seen a coin cause so much disagreement on either forum for some time.
Mark, Im somewhat surprised with your last statement, considering the degree of disagreement amongst those who have posted on this thread and also ATS. I would say the ONLY way to resolve the issue here would be submission, rather than just showing it to someone...
But, I DO agree that an experienced collector of these coins can spot a fake almost across the room, and also agree with others that the pictures provided leave a lot to be desired. While we are not dealing with a world class rarity here....it does have a value of several hundred dollars as opposed to a melt down fake value of fifty or sixty dollars. Also, the series has enough counterfeits out there that for the benefit of interested forum members, we DO need to clarify the authenticity of this piece once and for all.
I will gladly take some better images of this coin if Konsole would like to send it my way for a quick imaging and would love to see it in hand to see how it compares to others in my collection in regards to color and detail appearance.
<< <i>Meanwhile...ATS....this coin has stirred a hornets nest and it seems some members over there are beginning to get the dueling pistols out of the box and ready to shoot at each other.
http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4225458&fpart=3
One very valid point a forum member over there made was in regards to standard reed counts on these coins. I only have a few unslabbed specimes but they are unquestionably genuine and tomorrow I will get my super duper magnifying goggles on and count reeds. Hopefully our OP will do likewise on the 1874 and lets see what we have.
I dont think Ive seen a coin cause so much disagreement on either forum for some time.
Mark, Im somewhat surprised with your last statement, considering the degree of disagreement amongst those who have posted on this thread and also ATS. I would say the ONLY way to resolve the issue here would be submission, rather than just showing it to someone...
But, I DO agree that an experienced collector of these coins can spot a fake almost across the room, and also agree with others that the pictures provided leave a lot to be desired. While we are not dealing with a world class rarity here....it does have a value of several hundred dollars as opposed to a melt down fake value of fifty or sixty dollars. Also, the series has enough counterfeits out there that for the benefit of interested forum members, we DO need to clarify the authenticity of this piece once and for all.
I will gladly take some better images of this coin if Konsole would like to send it my way for a quick imaging and would love to see it in hand to see how it compares to others in my collection in regards to color and detail appearance. >>
Often, a coin which is extremely difficult to authenticate via (less than wonderful) on-line images, tells a different/much easier to ascertain story, in hand.