Dear PCGS

tradedollarnut · August 4, 2010 4:00PM

If this is the mark that I'm thinking of, then this is a chopmark and should be treated as such:

airplanenut · August 4, 2010 4:20PM

I leave those determinations up to the experts

PerryHall · August 4, 2010 9:36PM

It looks like a gouge to perhaps test the silver content of the coin. Can we get a closeup pic?

braddick · August 4, 2010 10:03PM

Oh well, call it Code 92 then as it has been cleaned with baking soda and water.

CertifiedGoldCoins · August 4, 2010 10:14PM

Man, would I like this one to be a chop. I still think it might be, but......

Broadstruck · August 4, 2010 10:48PM

Even if that boo boo is a chop mark based on the surface conditions of the obverse IMO it's in the right G.O. holder.

But then I've always felt all chop marked T$1's should be in G.O. holders as they suffer from PMD.

Longacre · August 4, 2010 10:58PM

Do you have an example of the chop mark that you are thinking of, and then the boards can compare them?

Lancastercoin · August 4, 2010 11:22PM

A chop may have been done for the same purpose as a test scratch, gouge, or punch mark - just with a fancier tool. It may have been done for the same purposes as some official government countermarks, just by a private party. There is no way to distinguish the two. Cool stamps get grades, nasty holes and scratches get 98s.

Also, "Dear PCGS": Please treat every other dollar of the world like you treat USA trade dollars! Why must 8R's, Brit T$s, China dollars, and all the others languish in 98 holders while USA T$s can be number graded? Or are you just waiting for all the rare ones to get in 98 holders and then change the policy so you can regrade them? I guess I answered my own question.

messydesk · August 4, 2010 11:46PM

Any sign of a corresponding lump on the reverse? It looks like an aborted drill hole.

derryb · August 4, 2010 11:49PM

<< Any sign of a corresponding lump on the reverse? It looks like an aborted drill hole. >>

I agree, especially with the worn down raised metal around the "hole."
Also agree with braddick, cleaned.

PerryHall · August 5, 2010 12:11AM

<< It looks like an aborted drill hole. >>

Doubtful. Usually holes are drilled next to the rim at 12:00 or sometimes at 6:00.

Ahrensdad · August 5, 2010 1:12AM

TDN,
Would you please comment on the coins surfaces and originality. At first blush, it seems perhaps dipped or cleaned. On more careful examination of the photo, I'm not so sure. That may address many of the repondants issues with the coin. As for the mark, I have to claim insufficient knowledge of chopmarks to lend any opinion. I will say that based on the "hooks" at 11 and 5 of the mark itself, the mark appears deliberate, and with some design.

Thanks-
Andrew

crypto79 · August 5, 2010 1:13AM

You of all people should know (I have even read it on your site) that the series of Chop Marks that look more like hole punches or just plain metal moving trapezoids are often frowned upon by PCGS. While I agree with you on a technical level I think PCGS's attitude towards chops is already generous enough., they don't what toooooo much stuff in their holders if the look isn't there. Even if it is a chop if it looks like a hole it kind of makes sense to error on the side of caution when it comes to brand integirty.IMO

And that doesn't look like a chop to me on the 78cc, sorry

coindeuce · August 5, 2010 1:17AM

Is PCGS still assigning numerical grades to chopmarked Trade dollars that are free of any other surface impairments?

Manorcourtman · August 5, 2010 1:18AM

<< You of all people should know (I have even read it on your site) that the series of Chop Marks that look more like hole punches or just plain metal moving trapezoids are often frowned upon by PCGS. While I agree with you on a technical level I think PCGS's attitude towards chops is already generous enough., they don't what toooooo much stuff in their holders if the look isn't there. Even if it is a chop if it looks like a hole it kind of makes sense to error on the side of caution when it comes to brand integirty.IMO

And that doesn't look like a chop to me on the 78cc, sorry >>

crypto79 · August 5, 2010 1:23AM

<< Is PCGS still assigning numerical grades to chopmarked Trade dollars that are free of any other surface impairments? >>

Yes but they are tight about it

coinguy1 · August 5, 2010 1:29AM

<< Oh well, call it Code 92 then as it has been cleaned with baking soda and water. >>

Pat, there are MANY graded coins (Trade Dollars, as well as other types) in holders, which are considerably more cleaned looking than that one.

braddick · August 5, 2010 1:48AM

<< 

<< Oh well, call it Code 92 then as it has been cleaned with baking soda and water. >>

Pat, there are MANY graded coins (Trade Dollars, as well as other types) in holders, which are considerably more cleaned looking than that one. >>

Good point.
Doesn't mean this 74-CC still doesn't deserve a Genuine holder for being cleaned.

leothelyon · August 5, 2010 1:52AM

<< It looks like a gouge to perhaps test the silver content of the coin. Can we get a closeup pic? >>

Looks more like something you'd find on Mars.

Leo

braddick · August 5, 2010 1:57AM

Nothing a strong dose of antibiotics won't cure.

PerryHall · August 5, 2010 2:01AM

<< 

<< It looks like a gouge to perhaps test the silver content of the coin. Can we get a closeup pic? >>

Looks more like something you'd find on Mars.

Leo

>>

Thanks for the blow up pic. I see nothing that changes my mind that that is anything more than post mint damage. I think that PCGS got that one right.

leothelyon · August 5, 2010 2:12AM

Yeah, buy if it were found on another Trade $1..........

Leo

tradedollarnut · August 5, 2010 2:27AM

There is a legitimate chop mark that looks like a conical drill hole with three little prongs on it. I see this mark on quite a few coins both with and without other marks. I have probably the finest 1876-S chopmarked coin, but all it has is this chopmark on it and they won't certify it. I also have an MS61 1874 with lots of chopmarks that has the very same mark on it - the coin was originally bagged for the mark and then later slabbed.

For some reason, PCGS refuses to call this chopmark anything but damage.

Coinosaurus · August 5, 2010 4:00AM

The first thing you have to do is precisely define chopmark. Come to think of it, I'm not sure even PCGS has done this even though they apply the designation.

But just as a casual observer the first thing I am expecting to see is a Chinese character. And I don't see it here.

crypto79 · August 5, 2010 5:20AM

<< The first thing you have to do is precisely define chopmark. >>

A Chop Mark is a character or symbol that represents a merchant, banker, location(port) or official representing its self as a authority/seal stating that the coin / bullion conforms to purity or weight standards or that all taxes & tariffs have been levied or administered.

I would imagine that PCGS defines it as "A commence stamp often in the form of a Chinese charter, that adds to the tangible history of the coin which is often a American Trade dollar. The mark/s should be consistent to the overall state of preservation on the coin and should not include an amount of reciprocal damage that is overly negative to the appeal or inconsistent with the eye appeal for the given grade range."

JRocco · August 5, 2010 6:39AM

I think this 1807 small stars has a chopmark and not a random mark also.

braddick · August 5, 2010 6:49AM

TDN, Sounds like a couple hundred hours of research on your part, coupled with dozens of photographs of host coins all submitted and presented to PCGS may, just may get your 74-CC Trade dollar into a regular holder, Chopmarked.

Of course it'll still have to get past that cleaning though. . .

Hussulo · August 5, 2010 6:51AM

Which brings us on to another important question:

How can a coin that has a chopmark on it be graded MS?

Surely it isn't uncirculated as it has been handled and traded hence the chopmark.

If you say it has a lot of detail and should be graded MS (mint state) I would say wrong again as the coin isn't in the state it was when it left the mint. It now has been marked.

IMHO no chopped marked coin should be assigned a grade higher the AU irrelevant of the amount of detail. Or it should be given the grade "MS Details 64" or similar.

cmerlo1 · August 5, 2010 7:01AM

<< Looks more like something you'd find on Mars.

Leo

>>

You might be onto something:

coinguy1 · August 5, 2010 7:10AM

<< Which brings us on to another important question:

How can a coin that has a chopmark on it be graded MS?

Surely it isn't uncirculated as it has been handled and traded hence the chopmark.

If you say it has a lot of detail and should be graded MS (mint state) I would say wrong again as the coin isn't in the state it was when it left the mint. It now has been marked.

IMHO no chopped marked coin should be assigned a grade higher the AU irrelevant of the amount of detail. Or it should be given the grade "MS Details 64" or similar. >>

Typically, the term "mint state" is used to describe coins which don't exhibit wear. And that is even if it is thought that they might have been "handled and traded" or even very lightly circulated.

crypto79 · August 5, 2010 7:14AM

<< Which brings us on to another important question:

How can a coin that has a chopmark on it be graded MS?

Surely it isn't uncirculated as it has been handled and traded hence the chopmark.

If you say it has a lot of detail and should be graded MS (mint state) I would say wrong again as the coin isn't in the state it was when it left the mint. It now has been marked.

IMHO no chopped marked coin should be assigned a grade higher the AU irrelevant of the amount of detail. Or it should be given the grade "MS Details 64" or similar. >>

You have a fair point but they are not graded UNC they are graded MSxx which is Mint State, and all that means in the absence of rub. Under your logic only the coins taken straight from the mint are true uncirculated coins. Most older MS coins esp the 60-63ish ones spent some time in commerce they just didn't come out too worse for the wear.

Hussulo · August 5, 2010 7:29AM

Typically, the term "mint state" is used to describe coins which don't exhibit wear. And that is even if it is thought that they might have been "handled and traded" or even very lightly circulated.

Thanks.

Over here in the UK if a coin has been lightly circulated then it isn't MS or Unc. I've even seen coins not graded Unc due to one side having some wear caused by cabinet friction (which can be expected after a couple of 100 years).

Thats why there are very few true Unc. graded older (200 years+) coins in the UK.

oreville · August 5, 2010 7:37AM

TDN:

We need a closeup.

We need to rule out the Mars possibility.

The reputed chopmark is not clear enough to make it out for an interpretation.

coindeuce · August 5, 2010 7:55AM

Not my intent to derail this thread, but I do have a question relating to Trade dollars. I have witnessed a number of them that have remains of a tar like substance on the surfaces. I recall reading an account from someone (possibly here) to the effect that many Trade dollars were smuggled out of China by secreting them in containers filled with a petroleum based tar. Assuming that to be de facto, does anyone know how PCGS approaches grading such examples? I swear I have seen one graded by PCGS, but I can't recall where.

cmerlo1 · August 5, 2010 8:11AM

<< TDN:

We need a closeup.

We need to rule out the Mars possibility.

The reputed chopmark is not clear enough to make it out for an interpretation. >>

I predict it's just how the light is hitting it, and it looks nothing like that without the shadows.

leothelyon · August 5, 2010 8:19AM

<< Typically, the term "mint state" is used to describe coins which don't exhibit wear. And that is even if it is thought that they might have been "handled and traded" or even very lightly circulated.

Thanks.

Over here in the UK if a coin has been lightly circulated then it isn't MS or Unc. I've even seen coins not graded Unc due to one side having some wear caused by cabinet friction (which can be expected after a couple of 100 years).

Thats why there are very few true Unc. graded older (200 years+) coins in the UK. >>

UKGS?

Oh My God! I did a search and they have the 100 point system.

But initially was searching for their grading standards but changed course............you can draw your own conclusions.

But did find the following statement interesting;

In essence we convince our selves as much as is possible we are dealing with the genuine item.

I think we can all learn something here..........registry collectors w/dreamy coins!

Leo

Hussulo · August 5, 2010 8:42AM

UKGS?

No. They are a relatively new outfit and the ONLY grading company in the UK.

Over here most collectors buy and sell RAW coins and grade accordingly:

Fine
Very Fine
Extremely Fine
Almost Uncirculated
Uncirculated

You do sometimes get in between grades like GVF (good VF) or AVF (almost VF).

But we don't use a points or Sheldon scale.

magikbilly · August 5, 2010 9:14AM

"In essence we convince our selves as much as is possible we are dealing with the genuine item." - UKGS

To me, that is something like "...assigning the largest numerical grade possible." or whatever.
I'd be happy with the wording"assigning the correct grade".
Ah well.

Best always,
Eric

TennesseeDave · August 5, 2010 9:52AM

<< There is a legitimate chop mark that looks like a conical drill hole with three little prongs on it. I see this mark on quite a few coins both with and without other marks. I have probably the finest 1876-S chopmarked coin, but all it has is this chopmark on it and they won't certify it. I also have an MS61 1874 with lots of chopmarks that has the very same mark on it - the coin was originally bagged for the mark and then later slabbed.

For some reason, PCGS refuses to call this chopmark anything but damage.

>>

Here is a 74-CC with the chopmark TDN referred to I believe.Look @ 3:00.

leothelyon · August 5, 2010 9:54AM

<< UKGS?

No. They are a relatively new outfit and the ONLY grading company in the UK.

Over here most collectors buy and sell RAW coins and grade accordingly:

Fine
Very Fine
Extremely Fine
Almost Uncirculated
Uncirculated

You do sometimes get in between grades like GVF (good VF) or AVF (almost VF).

But we don't use a points or Sheldon scale. >>

I got that as well from what I've read. Couldn't find an example of their slab but did see where they have a registry as well.

(That ought to turn some heads here.)

Leo

leothelyon · August 5, 2010 9:58AM

Marco Lens that attach to the camera are basically essential for close-ups in photography.

Just thought I throw that out there.

Leo

pmac · August 5, 2010 10:16AM

I agree with what Broadstruck and what Hussulo have to say. TDN knows what is in that slab and could convince anyone of it's grade, but it is not MS (unc) and has PMD. PCGS, stand by your rules.

DDR · August 5, 2010 10:20AM

I agree with TDN, that's a chopmark. I have a couple of chopmarked Trade dollars in my collection with that exact same (chop)mark.

PerryHall · August 5, 2010 5:21PM

<< I agree with TDN, that's a chopmark. I have a couple of chopmarked Trade dollars in my collection with that exact same (chop)mark. >>

Could we see a pic for comparison purposes?

tradedollarnut · September 7, 2010 1:06AM

Just won on ebay.

kurtdog · September 7, 2010 1:31AM

<< How can a coin that has a chopmark on it be graded MS? >>

Evidence of circulation wear is what keeps a coin out of MS. Even a chop mark, strictly-speaking, is evidence of circulation damage, not circulation wear.

ttxp · September 7, 2010 2:22AM

Numismatic Metamorphous = as a buyer I see a chop-mark as surface damage and proof of actual circulation wear, whereas as a seller that same chop-mark equals an authenticating historical marking and not a form of surface condition.

Tongue in cheek.............

Justacommeman · September 7, 2010 2:28AM

Chopmarks on Trade Dollars are about the coolest things period in my opinion says the guy typing this from China..............MJ

tradedollarnut · September 7, 2010 2:45AM

Ahhhh - well now we come to the crux of the matter. I agree with you that they are test marks - which historically have been accepted by chopmark collectors alongside chopmarks. AND some of the test marks have a three prong design to them - which I consider to be a CHOPMARK insofar as it contains a design.

Semantics? Perhaps. But PCGS started out bodybagging chopmarks, then bodybagging coins with both chops and test marks and now slabs both of those. I'd like to see the three prong test marks accepted at least.

Zoins · September 7, 2010 3:23AM

<< UKGS?

No. They are a relatively new outfit and the ONLY grading company in the UK. >>

I haven't heard of UKGS; however, the Coin Grading Service (CGS UK) is a UK-based grading company that has been in business since 2006 and are located in Kent. Weighton Coin Wonders in the UK, among others, sells CGS slabbed coins and has a number of photos of their slabs. CGS also used to have an innovative edge view holder when they first came out that was posted to the World Coins forum here, but it seems like they've since moved to a PCGS-like, non-edge-view holder.

CGS use a 100-point scale:

<< The CGS UK system arrives at a numeric grade between 1 and 100 with 100 being absolute perfection. >>

Here is their rough mapping to a non-numerical scale:

<< Grade Category
80 – 100 Uncirculated
75 - 78 Almost Uncirculated
60 – 70 Extremely Fine
40 – 59 Very Fine
20 – 39 Fine
1 – 19 Good, Very Good >>

Hmm. Rereading Leo's post, it seems like he's using UKGS to refer to CGS UK.

kurtdog · September 7, 2010 4:35AM

<< Chopmarks on Trade Dollars are about the coolest things period in my opinion says the guy typing this from China..............MJ >>

I'll give you something else perhaps pretty cool. When you bite down on a silver-alloyed coin with your choppers to determine whether the coin is "soft" enough to be authentic, what do you suppose you'd want to call those marks you'd leave on the coin?

That could be the etymology of the term.

Dear PCGS

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

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