Questionable Authenticity Question on coins bought on Auction

jt88 · July 14, 2010 12:41PM

I bought couple coins from B&M on June 19, 2010 auction. Right after I received them from B&M I expressed mail to NGC to grade. One of the coins is over $4k so it has to use express tier since it is over $3k. I just checked the result on NGC site it stated it is Questionable Authenticity. I just email B&M asked to return the coin and get my money back. Do you think I can get my money back on that coin? Thanks for your opinions. I still have couple coins that I bought from B&M waiting for grading result from NGC. I am little worry about them now.

MrEureka · July 14, 2010 12:52PM

A QA opinion from a TPG is hardly proof that the coin is counterfeit, so allowing a refund is at the auctioneer's discretion. That said, the auctioneer will in most cases allow the return, especially if they have not yet paid the consignor.

jt88 · July 14, 2010 12:59PM

I hope so otherwise I have to take legal action to get my money back which I hate to do. I hope auction house should act the same as ebay if not better.

MrEureka · July 14, 2010 1:08PM

I hope so otherwise I have to take legal action to get my money back

If a TPG can't decide if the coin is real, how can you expect a court to decide that it's counterfeit?

Lancastercoin · July 14, 2010 3:23PM

If the coin is counterfeit you shouldn't have a problem getting a refund from Ponterio/BM. As Mr Lustig said though, NGC (or our host's) opinion is hardly definitive. I own both genuine pieces that won't (currently) holder and terrible, obvious fakes that are in top-tier slabs, so it's kind of a jungle out there.

What is the country of origin of the coin? Someone here can probably recommend an expert for you.

jt88 · July 14, 2010 3:48PM

China. I still have couple high price coins that I bought from B&M that are in NGC waiting for grade. One of them that I bought from last March that I did not send it to grade until two days ago. I am kind of worry about all of them now. I sent in about 36 coins.

jt88 · July 14, 2010 3:51PM

I will see what B&M reply tomorrow. I hope they will take the coin back and refund the money, that will save me lots of trouble to fight for it. Anyway, we shall see.

FilamCoins · July 14, 2010 4:41PM

Does the fact that neither the consignor nor the auction house certified a $4k Chinese coin before selling it raise a red flag? Or is this common?

Lynch · July 14, 2010 5:48PM

<< I hope auction house should act the same as ebay if not better. >>

That's really not a high standard to meet, is it?

covers · July 14, 2010 11:03PM

That TPG statement is, in effect, a "no opinion" statement. I respect an expert, or expert group, who can say they just don't know despite terrific market pressures. Much better than punting.

Having said that, a bidder should specifically ask an auction house if they will accept returns if a TPG comes back with a no opinion if they feel there is any possibility of receiving a no opinion before bidding. The term,s of most houses say they are not obligated to accept such returns.

It is a bad situation for buyer, owner, and the house. Still, sometimes a "no opinion" is warranted.

coinpictures · July 14, 2010 11:28PM

<< Having said that, a bidder should specifically ask an auction house if they will accept returns if a TPG comes back with a no opinion if they feel there is any possibility of receiving a no opinion before bidding. >>

I agree. I've seen dealers that will only refund on a negative opinion (no return if "no opinion"), and I've personally made arrangements with dealers that the purchase of an item is contingent upon receiving a clean cert (returnable if no opinion). It's dependent upon the agreement between the buyer and seller/auctioner in advance. If there was no prior arrangement made, it's solely at the discretion of the seller/auctioneer and usually reverts to the published terms and conditions of the auction.

I've also seen a wide variance in policy as to who pays for the cert cost if the opinion is bad. Some dealers will pay the cert cost in addition to refunding the original purchase price of the item, others will not.

jt88 · July 14, 2010 11:56PM

I remembered someone on this board said HA would take the coin back. I hope BM will do the same.

NeoStar · July 14, 2010 11:56PM

I purchased a raw coin from B&M a few months back at auction. The coin was described as Uncirculated (a little different situation than the OP's current problem). When I received the coin I felt that although the coin was beautiful it wasn't UNC. It was a very good looking AU.

I was afraid that if I sent the coin to be graded they would break the coin out of the sealed B&M 2X2 it came in and B&M wouldn't take it back then. I decided to leave the coin in the sealed B&M 2X2 rather than send it in for grading and contacted B&M. They offered to take it back and have it graded themselves by either PCGS or NGC. If the coin graded, it was mine and if it didn't they were willing to take it back.

The folks at B&M were great and everything was resolved to my satisfaction...

jt88 · July 15, 2010 12:01AM

<< I purchased a raw coin from B&M a few months back at auction. The coin was described as Uncirculated (a little different situation than the OP's current problem). When I received the coin I felt that although the coin was beautiful it wasn't UNC. It was a very good looking AU.

I was afraid that if I sent the coin to be graded they would break the coin out of the sealed B&M 2X2 it came in and B&M wouldn't take it back then. I decided to leave the coin in the sealed B&M 2X2 rather than send it in for grading and contacted B&M. They offered to take it back and have it graded themselves by either PCGS or NGC. If the coin graded, it was mine and if it didn't they were willing to take it back.

The folks at B&M were great and everything was resolved to my satisfaction... >>

Thanks for the post. That makes me feel much better. I really think they should take it back, that would give me confident to buy again from them

covers · July 15, 2010 12:06AM

jt88 - I hate to say this but it may come down to who the auction house deems more important - the owner (who would have every right to be furious if they accepted the return), or you, the buyer.

ajaan · July 15, 2010 12:10AM

Does a TPG ever state 'not authentic' for a coin? If they did, wouldn't they be obligated to turn the coin over to the Secret Service? Isn't that the reason they say 'Questionable Authenticity' and not 'Fake'?

jt88 · July 15, 2010 12:31AM

<< Does a TPG ever state 'not authentic' for a coin? If they did, wouldn't they be obligated to turn the coin over to the Secret Service? Isn't that the reason they say 'Questionable Authenticity' and not 'Fake'? >>

I don't think they turn the coin to Secret Service any more. I once bought two coins from a seller and both graded fake. I got the coins back from ANACS and I returned them and got my money back.

MrEureka · July 15, 2010 1:29AM

Does a TPG ever state 'not authentic' for a coin?

All the time, when they're sure.

Lancastercoin · July 15, 2010 3:59AM

<< That TPG statement is, in effect, a "no opinion" statement. >>

No, they have a "no opinion" verdict they often render.

If you're considering any high-quality Chinese coins in upcoming major auctions please remember that PCGS's guarantee on China material is $1000 max, and some houses don't take returns of TPG material. Just a word to the wise.

Lastly, as long as they make good on the mistake I wouldn't damn B&M for this slip. Every dealer and TPG that regularly handles China material gets burned sometimes. Every one.

jt88 · July 15, 2010 5:22AM

Anyone knows any good attorney that good at handling this kind of issue? Also anyone knows how auction house get their business license? Which government agency issues the license? Thanks a lot for any help.

marcmoish · July 15, 2010 10:52AM

...an attorney?? whoa...you seem to be rushing into legal or/and confrontational avenues....I'm unsure why you are not hearing these comments and advice from evevryone...

Contact B&M period and see what they can/will do. You may be surprised. I never had this type of a problem with them but have once in the past with Heritage. They were more then accomodating , and i'm sure B&M will listen too.

Can you post the coin perhaps also it might pay to consider cracking it out and sending to pcgs?

Marc

NeoStar · July 15, 2010 1:02PM

Marc is right. You should contact B&M before you start worrying about a lawyer.

jt88 · July 15, 2010 1:04PM

<< Marc is right. You should contact B&M before you start worrying about a lawyer. >>

I did. I sent them two emails so far no reply.

mrpotatoheadd · July 15, 2010 1:54PM

<< 

<< Marc is right. You should contact B&M before you start worrying about a lawyer. >>

I did. I sent them two emails so far no reply. >>

If it was me, I'd call them up. I'm sure they've got a phone number listed somewhere.

NeoStar · July 15, 2010 5:39PM

The phone number listed on their website is 800-458-4646. It does take them a few days to respond to emails sometimes.

When you received the coin, was it sealed? If it was, is it still sealed now?

Lancastercoin · July 17, 2010 1:58AM

I wouldn't worry unless a full week to ten days has passed without word back from them.

jt88 · July 17, 2010 4:03AM

Thanks. I guess I will wait for couple more days. I bought from both B&M and HA but I found HA sell for better coins (most are graded) and has better communications. In June 19 auction I emailed B&M about a 6k coin twice and never receive a reply from them. Of course I did not buy that coin due to no reply. Maybe I should buy from HA only.

Questionable Authenticity Question on coins bought on Auction

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