Is this 1949s Franklin prooflike?Grade in: MS65FBLPL

Numis · July 11, 2010 7:24AM

Opinions welcome!

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MorganChicken · July 11, 2010 7:26AM

The obverse sure looks like it, but I'm not sure if it would qualify as a full PL.

PawPaul · July 11, 2010 7:26AM

it sure is, and probably would get the designation @ NGC

coinguy1 · July 11, 2010 7:27AM

Based on the images, it looks like it might be. However, PCGS does not use that designation for Franklin Half Dollars.

Numis · July 11, 2010 7:34AM

Thanks for the opinions, I found a lot of the same diagnostics that are on this one.

Numis · July 11, 2010 7:36AM

Sorry, meant this one.

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Numis · July 11, 2010 2:03PM

I wish PCGS offered the proof like designation but as much as it pains me I guess I'll have to send it across the street and hope they give it proof like. I get a lot of my information on the series from Frank's Franklin Half Tutorial Series and am thrilled his knowledge allowed me (hopefully) to inexpensively pick up the Franklin that had eluded me. In memoriam, thanks Frank.

SkyMan · July 11, 2010 4:07PM

<< I wish PCGS offered the proof like designation but as much as it pains me I guess I'll have to send it across the street and hope they give it proof like. I get a lot of my information on the series from Frank's Franklin Half Tutorial Series and am thrilled his knowledge allowed me (hopefully) to inexpensively pick up the Franklin that had eluded me. In memoriam, thanks Frank. >>

As far as PL Frankies go, there is a member ATS called "physics fan 3.14", he has written a variety of threads about PL Franklins. You might PM him ATS and he should be able to point you in the direction of his threads or give you some needed info.

As far as the coin in question, I'd say the obverse certainly is PL, the question is what does the reverse look like. I don't know if NGC will designate a one sided PL Franklin.

Numis · July 11, 2010 6:04PM

Thank you Skyman. I will try and find those threads.

frnklnlvr · July 11, 2010 6:15PM

I'd say without a doubt that it's fully PL. The reason the reverse looks different is probably just the way the pic came out. If you shoot these coins straight on they came out black, similar to a proof coin. I recently contacted PCGS about having these designated as PL and they said they don't designate any Franklins as PL. BTW, if you can get that to cross at the same grade with the PL you definitely got a great price.

I recently made a 1949-S 50c NGC MS65FBL PL and while comparing it to my other '49-S I discovered that they were struck from different reverse dies. The position of the MMs in relation to the bell hanger was different for each coin. I wasn't able to determine if the obv. dies were the same or not.

Here's are a couple shots of one of my Franklin PLs...

johnny9434 · July 11, 2010 7:58PM

nice 49 franklin, i wish they gave ya the fbl thou. oh well its still nice

frnklnlvr · July 11, 2010 8:54PM

<< nice 49 franklin, i wish they gave ya the fbl thou. oh well its still nice

>>

Thanks! It has a very small flat spot that precludes it from the FBL designation. However, most of the '49-S PLs I've seen are FBL.

Edit: One more thing about the coin in the OP, if the reverse turns out not to be PL I'm pretty sure NGC would still give it a star.

PawPaul · July 12, 2010 8:28AM

<< I'd say without a doubt that it's fully PL. The reason the reverse looks different is probably just the way the pic came out. If you shoot these coins straight on they came out black, similar to a proof coin. I recently contacted PCGS about having these designated as PL and they said they don't designate any Franklins as PL. BTW, if you can get that to cross at the same grade with the PL you definitely got a great price.

I recently made a 1949-S 50c NGC MS65FBL PL and while comparing it to my other '49-S I discovered that they were struck from different reverse dies. The position of the MMs in relation to the bell hanger was different for each coin. I wasn't able to determine if the obv. dies were the same or not.

Here's are a couple shots of one of my Franklin PLs...

>>

i thought this one got upgraded to MS65 ? no ?

joebb21 · July 12, 2010 8:33AM

Mines not

frnklnlvr · July 12, 2010 2:37PM

<< 
i thought this one got upgraded to MS65 ? no ? >>

That's a different coin PP. The one that upgraded was originally graded MS64 and then graded 65FBL PL.

leothelyon · July 12, 2010 11:55PM

I recently made a 1949-S 50c NGC MS65FBL PL and while comparing it to my other '49-S I discovered that they were struck from different reverse dies. The position of the MMs in relation to the bell hanger was different for each coin. I wasn't able to determine if the obv. dies were the same or not.

I've always thought PL coins were the result of over-polished areas on the sheet metal coils before the planchets are cut out. The reason behind one sided PL coins was my guess.

Leo

frnklnlvr · July 13, 2010 12:20AM

<< I recently made a 1949-S 50c NGC MS65FBL PL and while comparing it to my other '49-S I discovered that they were struck from different reverse dies. The position of the MMs in relation to the bell hanger was different for each coin. I wasn't able to determine if the obv. dies were the same or not.

I've always thought PL coins were the result of over-polished areas on the sheet metal coils before the planchets are cut out. The reason behind one sided PL coins was my guess.

Leo >>

One reason for PLs, particularily the 1949-S Franklin, is over-polishing of the dies. I'm sure there are other factors that could give a coin a proof-like appearance. The 1959 PL Franklin pictured below is the result of a circulation-quality planchet being struck from highly polished proof dies. There are lots of 1958 and 1959 business strike Franklins struck from proof dies but very few are PL.

PawPaul · July 13, 2010 7:28AM

WOW Lvr , you got two of them then ?

bushmaster8 · July 13, 2010 12:25PM

<< I've always thought PL coins were the result of over-polished areas on the sheet metal coils before the planchets are cut out. The reason behind one sided PL coins was my guess.Leo >>

No doubt some PL coins result from shiny areas, but 49-S Franklin PL are a special breed. As far as I know, no one can say for sure how they came about, but the sharp as nails strikes they exhibit may indicate some sort of "special strikings" or possibly even "practice dies" for mint workers.

As in, "Here you go Sonny, take this die pair over to the bench and try your hand at die polishing. Then we'll see how they strike-up..."

frnklnlvr · July 21, 2010 11:45AM

Did the coin turn out to be fully PL Numis?

Numis · July 21, 2010 12:20PM

Just received it today and in my opinion it is without question PL on obverse and reverse. As you stated frnklnlver the photo on the reverse looked different because of the angle they took it from. I'm sending it off this week to see what grade comes back. It is a beautiful coin and I think it will cross at 64 but it has what looks like milk spots on both sides. I don't mess with coins or dipping but minus the cloudiness I have no doubt it would cross at 64. The scuffs on the coin look much worse in the photos than in hand. Do you think the cloudy spots will impact the grade substantially?

Thanks for all your info.

frnklnlvr · July 21, 2010 7:32PM

Congrats on a nice pickup! From the photos it looks like it shouldn't have a problem crossing at 64FBL. The coin I recently submitted that graded 65FBL PL was first graded MS65*Star (this is after being cracked out of the MS64 holder). I had to send it back for a designation review and after that it graded 65FBL PL. Hopefully they'll get the PL designation on yours the first time but if they don't I'd definitely send it back in for a review. If you have concerns about the cloudiness you could always have NCS examine it first. They may be able to improve it and give it a higher grade.

Let us know how it grades.

Numis · August 10, 2010 6:54AM

I appreciate all the info frnklnlvr, skyman and others. While waiting to get the grade from ATS I looked closely at the Heritage photo and noticed some strange markings on the L in Liberty. One of the coins you showed appeared to have an S on the L frnklnlvr. Would appreciate any opinions on whether it appears to be hits or something more.

heritage

frnklnlvr · August 10, 2010 10:51AM

<< I appreciate all the info frnklnlvr, skyman and others. While waiting to get the grade from ATS I looked closely at the Heritage photo and noticed some strange markings on the L in Liberty. One of the coins you showed appeared to have an S on the L frnklnlvr. Would appreciate any opinions on whether it appears to be hits or something more.

heritage >>

I can't tell from the photo what the mark on the L is. It may just be a mark on the coin and not the die because neither of mine have this. Bagmarks seem to show up worse than they actually are in photographs of PLs.

Here's another interesting discovery I made when comparing my two '49-S PLs. There are at least two die pairs that produced proof-like coins for this issue. Below are the mintmarks from the two I have, you can see the positioning in relation to the bell hanger differs. The second MM is also listed as RPM-003. Yours looks like it matches the first one.

Numis · August 10, 2010 11:19AM

Very interesting frnklnlvr, so there were at least 2 reverse dies on the PL's. Your two and mine appear to have a die chip between WE on the obverse but the one I've linked to doesn't appear to have it, so it would appear there are at least 2 obverse dies as well.

link

frnklnlvr · August 10, 2010 7:36PM

<< Very interesting frnklnlvr, so there were at least 2 reverse dies on the PL's. Your two and mine appear to have a die chip between WE on the obverse but the one I've linked to doesn't appear to have it, so it would appear there are at least 2 obverse dies as well.

link >>

The two coins I posted above in MS64 PL are the same coin taken under different lighting conditions. You are correct that there is a small die chip between the W and E.

Below is my other '49-S that's graded 65FBL PL. This is the one listed as RPM-003. One easy way to identify this variety is to look for the die gouge "spikes" coming off the top left of the R and T of LIBERTY. Every die state I've seen for RPM-003 has these die gouges.

I've thoroughly examined both of mine and can say with almost 100% certainty there are at least two obverse and two reverse dies making up at least two die marriages.

Numis · August 16, 2010 1:16AM

Can't wait to get it back. MS65FBLPL

SkyMan · August 16, 2010 3:09AM

Congratulations!

Numis · August 16, 2010 3:18AM

Thanks Skyman! I enjoyed looking at your registry set ATS, you've got some beauties. My set is listed under mmarc, I need to figure out how to get photos taken and upload them. You have done a great job with yours.

kryptonitecomics · August 16, 2010 3:40AM

Way to go...happy ending and all

frnklnlvr · August 16, 2010 7:20PM

That is great news! You definitely scored on that one! My 65FBL PL sold for $1950.

Is this 1949s Franklin prooflike?Grade in: MS65FBLPL

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