2004 Wisconsin extra leafs---
pitboss
Posts: 8,643 ✭✭✭
took a jump almost all the way across the board this week.
0
pitboss
Posts: 8,643 ✭✭✭
took a jump almost all the way across the board this week.
Comments
The name is LEE!
Just examine the price guides and see what other quarters can compare or are worth that much for a simple MS63 grade. I think you will find none even close!
of all time! Render to Caesar's what is
Caesars and give to God what is God's.
I completely agree with you and continue to hold on to all that I have.
Where is this?
these are not unique unlike most of my other error coins which are.
These are varieties, like 1955 doubled die cent or 1937-D 3-legged buffalo nickel. Not errors.
<< <i> These are varieties, like 1955 doubled die cent or 1937-D 3-legged buffalo nickel. Not errors. >>
All three of the above are errors and also considered varieties
<< <i>took a jump almost all the way across the board this week.
Where is this?
these are not unique unlike most of my other error coins which are.
These are varieties, like 1955 doubled die cent or 1937-D 3-legged buffalo nickel. Not errors. >>
This was last weeks news not this week.
W/o getting into the middle of an Error vs Variety dispute, NGC on their home page goes into depth explaining the difference of these two terms. Comments ......
I sold my last one on eBay a couple of weeks ago
<< <i>Maybe because these are the greatest modern coins of our generation for circulated released coinage and most are just blinded by the fact of something truly unique and special!
Just examine the price guides and see what other quarters can compare or are worth that much for a simple MS63 grade. I think you will find none even close! >>
Most collectors continue to overlook all US and world coins made since
precious metals were removed from the coinage. But the number who
aren't overlooking them continues to swell and prices are exploding al-
most across the board.
I believe this will continue for decades and many many scarce coins will
be discovered among the high mintages. If you really want a surprise
take a look at the Danish coinage. When they switched from silver to
aluminum bronze the prices are far higher for the base metal coins de-
spite the higher mintages and still paltry demand. People haven't saved
the base metal coins and now they are being sought.
<< <i>Pitboss you are on to something. Last week, the PCGS price guide showed five green prices for the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Low quarters. Four were for + MS grades. I think the High Leafs prices may turn green as well. Rick's great Greysheet article has awakened some savy collectors. Ebay deals seem to have evaporated. A NGC MS 68 High Leaf never closed on Ebay. Why, I do not know. IMHO, pockets of these rare coins have been sold off during the recession. Dreams of striking-it-rich with these new coins have faded. Gains will maybe come for those who hold them for the long term. I am still trying to figure out this modern coin market. Enjoy collecting whatever coins you like !! Mark.
W/o getting into the middle of an Error vs Variety dispute, NGC on their home page goes into depth explaining the difference of these two terms. Comments ...... >>
I also feel that something is going on with these coins. Some collectors have dumped the coins yhat they have and certain buyers have picked them up which leads me to believe that someone knows something.
The "oooh, what's that?" factor is very strong with these coins.
Then just have them go see my videos to explain how they happened:
How the WI Extra Leaf Quarters were made (Video)
Rarity and early values of the WI Extra Leaf Quarters (Video)
ErrorsOnCoins, just to clarify - By errors, I mean striking errors or planchet errors. No two are alike. Variety is Die variety, which is on the die and is found on all coins from that die (excluding die states)
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe because these are the greatest modern coins of our generation for circulated released coinage and most are just blinded by the fact of something truly unique and special!
Just examine the price guides and see what other quarters can compare or are worth that much for a simple MS63 grade. I think you will find none even close! >>
Most collectors continue to overlook all US and world coins made since
precious metals were removed from the coinage. But the number who
aren't overlooking them continues to swell and prices are exploding al-
most across the board.
I believe this will continue for decades and many many scarce coins will
be discovered among the high mintages. If you really want a surprise
take a look at the Danish coinage. When they switched from silver to
aluminum bronze the prices are far higher for the base metal coins de-
spite the higher mintages and still paltry demand. People haven't saved
the base metal coins and now they are being sought. >>
I could not agree with you more Sam! The dissing that post 1965 coins have received opens up a whole new batch of true rarities which will be realized in 10 or 15 years. Maybe more. It'll take a new breed of coin collectors for this to be realized.
The name is LEE!
I have an unopened mint box ql4 ... is it worth searching? thanks
They were found in Arizona and Texas basically and were in rolls not bags as far as I know.
6 years later i still say bleh to this coin, there's millions of them.
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Wisconsin Extra Leaves
By Richard Snow, NLG
“I wanted to embarrass them” is perhaps what he would say, if he was ever found out and questioned. We’ll call him “Roger” but his identity is still unknown. What is known is that in the week prior to the Thanksgiving weekend back in 2004, Roger got his chance at making his mark on numismatic history.
It was nothing unusual for a tray of dies for the current Wisconsin State Quarter to come to his workspace in the die storage room. In fact, it was routine. The dies were still in a workable soft-state as they were already annealed. Roger picked up small screwdriver tool, the kind with interchangeable bits. But this time, there was no bit in the tool. He carefully lined up the circular end of the tool near the corn husk on one of the dies and gave it a strong whack. After examining the mark, he decided to give it a second impression. Whack! “Too low” he thought as he lined the tool up on a second die. Whack! This time the first hit worked perfectly. The marks actually looked like they belonged on the design. They looked like extra leaves on the ear of corn. The dies were put back in the tray waiting to be sent to the furnace to be heat-treated.
A few days later, on Thanksgiving weekend, the newly hardened dies were delivered to the press room where five large presses were stamping out Wisconsin State quarters. Each press had a single coining chamber, so the two dies with Roger’s “special mark” were installed in separate presses. After installation of the dies, the pressman checked to make sure the planchet feeder was full and, satisfied that everything was working properly, pushed the button and started the press. He then went to lunch.
The coins coming out must be constantly inspected. To do this, an inspector walks from press to press and randomly looks carefully at the coins being produced. He came to one of the presses stamping out Roger’s special creations. The inspector grabbed a coin and examined it. He noticed the extra mark and immediately shut down the press. Moving on to the next press, the inspector noticed another defect and shut that press down too.
What happened next, we can’t say for certain since the Mint didn’t investigate the matter until six months later. What is known is that as many as 20,000 coins from each of Roger’s marked dies escaped the mint. And there was no way to get them back.
On December 11, Bob Ford, a sharp-eyed retired police officer living in Tucson Arizona was going through a bag of quarters from his local bank when he came upon one of the quarters containing Roger’s mark. Rather than becoming elated at the discovery, he became slightly discouraged, thinking “Now I’ll have to go through all of these coins again”. When he was finished, Bob had found about 150 or so of the specially marked quarters. He put one of these coins on eBay and it sold for a whopping $1.35. The following week, he brought some of the coins to Rob Weiss of Old Pueblo Coins in Tucson. Rob and his employee, Ben Weinstein, thought the coins were an interesting collectible variety. They did some research and tried to find more. They then called the local newspaper as well as Coin World and Numismatic News.
On January 3, 2005 I was getting ready to leave for a trip to Disney World with my family. After the trip I would stay for the FUN show in Ft. Lauderdale. Just minutes before I left, I recall seeing the cover of the local paper with Rob Weiss’ picture on it. “It sure was nice to see Rob get the front page” I thought. I then began to read about the Wisconsin quarters with the extra marks. “This is something special” I thought. I instructed one of my employees, Bret Palser, to find out more about these quarters and to see if he could get some for the FUN show. He was able to buy up about 50 of the marked quarters for $10 to $15 each.
The 2005 FUN show was busy and I had the curious quarters lying in my case for a couple days, with only a few of my customers seeing them. On Friday at the show, I took a set of them and walked the show floor, stopping any notable numismatist I could find, to get their opinion. I knew I had something when I stopped by Dave Bowers’ table and showed the coins to him. He studied them and asked “How much for a set”? I said $150. He bought it and called David Hall over from PCGS, who was intrigued with them as well. “What should we call them” I asked. “How about ‘Extra Leaf’ quarters”, Dave Bowers suggested, since Roger’s mark near the corn stalk looked like an extra leaf on the corn stalk. Shortly thereafter, Dave Bowers sent his set in to PCGS for grading and attribution, and it became the first graded set of the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters – the High Leaf and Low Leaf.
When I got back to my table there was a crowd wanting to see and buy the quarters at the same $150 per set price. I decided to hold back the few remaining sets I had and began thinking about the opportunities waiting me back in Tucson where these were being found.
When I returned from the show, I immediately offered to buy any and all examples from the various dealers in town for $50 apiece. I ended up getting 300 or so coins in my hands but my sudden interest in the Extra Leafs created a bit more interest by the other dealers in town as well. Soon, Tucson was like a gold rush town! People were flooding the banks with requests for quarters. Examples even started popping up in San Antonio, Texas as well as other places. I figured that even if these were dirt common, they should be worth $50 each, so I didn’t think my offer too risky. I submitted the coins I bought at the $50 level to PCGS and NGC and got them back within a few days - on a bulk submission, no less!
Around this time I gave an interview to an Associated Press reporter who warned me at the conclusion of the interview, “I hope you’re ready for what’s ahead!” Well, it turns out I wasn’t. The news broke nationwide that the coins were being bought by me for $50. Rather than get inundated with sellers, I got inundated with buyers. The NGC certified three-piece sets were priced between $300 for the MS64 sets to $1,100 for the MS67 sets. The few hundred sets I had submitted sold out within a few days. Many of these buyers turned around and offered their sets on eBay for instant profits. Some of these eBay sales were getting 10,000 “watchers”.
Bob Ford was a good friend and had started cherrypicking varieties from circulation back in the early 1990’s. I got him started in this field, when he came to me looking for a cheap way to enjoy the hobby. His wife got to calling him “Nickel-neck” for the time he spent looking at coins. After discovering the Extra Leaf quarters, he came to me and asked if I would help him sell the 100 sets he had. These were special coins and we didn’t want them to be lost to history, so we sent them to NGC and they made special holders saying that these were “Bob Ford Discovery Sets”. These sold for a premium and were a big hit with collectors. Bob used the money to take a sea cruise. Sadly, he passed away about a year later.
By February 2005, finds of these quarters began to dwindle and it looked like the Extra Leaf quarter varieties would be rather scarce. The prices began to climb higher. Human nature being what it is there were those who began spreading false rumors. One rumor that was taken seriously in the hobby press was that a full bag of Extra Leaf quarters had been found in Ohio. This could easily be dismissed since Denver Mint coins weren’t delivered to Ohio and the Extra Leaf quarters were never found in solid rolls, let alone bags. Some prominent error experts claimed the Extra Leaf was caused by random die damage and thus had little collector value. These claims took a long time to dispel, but they were all eventually proved false with the independent research from variety expert and top-notch metallurgist, Chris Pilliod.
Towards the end of 2005, my involvement in marketing these coins ended since my core business is buying and selling Indian cents. I sold all my remaining Extra leaf quarters in December 2005. My timing could not have been worse, as prices soon shot up to extraordinary levels. A couple of things happened to make the prices shoot up. First, the rarity levels became more established and some collectors felt that there was great future potential in the quarters. The 2007 Red Book was released in the spring of 2006 and mentioned the coins. The Extra Leaf quarters were becoming a mainstream variety. The prices paid on eBay began to rise dramatically. Three-piece sets graded by NGC as MS67 were being bid up on eBay to unsustainable levels – in some cases up to $10,000. This bubble caused by the eBay bidding frenzy didn’t last and prices soon collapsed. Those same NGC MS67 sets today are trading around $3,000. Since then prices have remained soft compared to 2006. I believe this softness is because eBay is the main venue for sales and there was virtually no dealer participation in marketing the quarters. When the only sales information comes from eBay, where prices can jump all over the place, it is difficult to get a handle on the actual pricing. The current prices are listed on page 10 of the Coin Dealer Newsletter Monthly Supplement under Early Singles and Varieties. Pricing is also in the Red Book, Coin Values and Coin Prices. There is still interest in the coins, as a single PCGS graded MS-67 High Leaf variety recently sold for $10,000. This is a pop 2 coin and was offered for as much as $45,000 in 2006.
I think the Wisconsin Extra Leaf quarters are a very intriguing variety and will someday become as valuable to collectors as the 1955 Double Die cent and the 1937-D 3-legged Buffalo nickel -- two varieties of nearly equal rarity to each of the Extra Leaf varieties. To help people better understand the Extra leaf quarters, I made two short informational videos -- one details how they were made and the other shows the price history up to 2007. These can be found on my web site – www.indiancent.com.
How the WI Extra Leaf Quarters were made (Video)
Rarity and early values of the WI Extra Leaf Quarters (Video)
the huge fluctuations in the value of these, as compared to today's market for them. Of course, I was hoping I was sitting on a potential goldmine with my unopened mint issued box. Visions of ms69, dare I say
ms70's, floating in my brain. Now I know that isn't going to happen.....
I'm a little confused as to how the "unidentified person" remains unidentified. There must have been just a few people who would have access, scheduled at those particular hours where the mischief had to have
happened. It wouldn't take too much solid investigation to pinpoint the culprit I would think. Did they actually identify the tool that was used or was that just a bit of fiction to move the story along? If they had
identified the tool, there probably would be some prints or DNA on it. (by the way, I'm not a detective....but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express)
Again thanks all, especially EagleEye, for the education.
....and, in the end...
the love you take is equal to the love you make....
The tool used is a best guess from the radius of the curves. There is a slight six-sided straight edge on the inside of the curve (look at the video), indicating that a bit screwdriver without a bit was used. Can't be 100% certain that is what it was though.
<< <i>.the edge of a cent? A quick hammer blow...and done! >>
A cent is very soft, a die is very hard. It must have been done with something a lot harder and sharper than a cent.
but I can say with great certainty they will never
compare price-wise with the 2000 Sacagawea
Quarter/Dollar Mules.
Two totally different 'animals' .
Yes but you said they are not errors, but they are errors be definition, Leafs are die gouge errors, 55 double die is a double die error, and the 3 legged is a die polish error.
Again, I'm stating definitions, you are using a loose and confusing interpretation when you say these die varieties are errors. Strictly speaking and error is a striking or planchet "error" and a variety is a die "error". Once you start mixing imprecise language and precise language, you cause confusion with your readers. In this hobby we call them errors and varieties, not errors and errors.
Leafs are die gouge errors
Also, this is not a a die gouge error, it is an added element. The difference is intent. One is random one is purposeful.
Another example of this type of added element is the 2004-D "extra ear" dime. Likely done by the same person with the same tool.
ANACS calls this a die chip error (which I agree with) but would not label it a a Two-Horned Variety ???
I am not trying to get in a fight with you, you obviously know way more about the leafs than I do.
But everything I have read, says a die gouge (I know you say it was done by someone) is an error, as is die polishing, double dies and die chips, and yes the "error" is in the die with multiple examples.
THis is NOT my area of expertise as I collect major striking errors.
Alan Herbert's book is great for definitions.
You can say that a die flaw, gouge, whatever, is an error on the die (a die error), but the coins that are struck from from that die, where every coin that same defect, is a variety and not an error. If you omit the "die" from "die error" you are using imprecise language.
Box of 20
<< <i>Originally going on ebay for a $1.35. These were srtongly promoted to get where they are now. Unlike the 2009 Double Die lincolns which are going nowhere. Perhaps the Lincolns need a strong promotion also to get them off the ground. I own a set of NGC MS 66 High and Low Leafs btw, so not knocking these coins at all. >>
Any fellow old-timers on here remember when John Love was heavily promoting the 1890-CC "Tail Bar" dollars with the die gouge in the tail feathers back in the 60's and 70's?
Guess he isn't promoting them anymore.
TD
<< <i>Pitboss, the five green price increases for the WI Extra Leaf Low quarters are shown on today's PCGS Price Guide. Have a great day !! Mark. >>
Yes, I see that Mark.
I wonder why the low leafs only. There are far fewer of the high leafs.
That was before anyone had any idea something like this could happen. Bob Ford was a great guy and a persistent cherrypicker.