So when a dealer says he won't refund me for a recolored Perry RC, what do I say?

RonBurgundy · June 21, 2010 10:08AM

I bought a 62 Perry RC raw, sent it in, came back recolored. Dealer has refunded me in the past for anything that didn't grade, now says "you've made plenty of money off me, so not this time." (I am not embellishing, he really did say that)

What should my response be? I expect some varied opinions here, so be as candid as you want.

CNote · June 21, 2010 10:11AM

Kick him in the nuts and give his name to the community.

itzagoner · June 21, 2010 10:11AM

<< <i>"you've made plenty of money off me, so not this time." >>

wtf.

JHS5120 · June 21, 2010 10:18AM

Sounds like he had a pretty crappy day. Where's Storm????

Griffins · June 21, 2010 10:19AM

out him. If he won't stand behind what he sells you can at least let everyone else know. No embellishment, no editorializing, just the facts.

WalterSobchak · June 21, 2010 10:22AM

Tell him that he needs to reconsider his position- and if he doesn't, fine! You've got Jack Johnson and Tom O' Leary waiting for him, right here!

MBMiller25 · June 21, 2010 10:24AM

RB, I would out the dealer. If you're not comfortable doign that, please PM me, so I dont give the seller one penny of my money.

SidePocket · June 21, 2010 10:28AM

So he sells you cards but says you're making money off him? I would simply tell him it's a two way street, and there's no point in doing further business with him if he won't stand behind the cards he sells.

JHS5120 · June 21, 2010 10:34AM

I can understand why you wouldn't out him. If you have been making money off of him then he may be a reliable (up until now) source of raw cards. Keep him anonymous and email him back telling him you will escalate the matter.
Just an opinion
Jason

BuckeyeState · June 21, 2010 10:34AM

Tell him that you and Chuck Norris are good buds and that you can have him down there to round house kick him in the face in a second

storm888 · June 21, 2010 10:50AM

Sorta depends on what the sophisticated seller told
the sophisticated buyer at the time of the sale, AND
what the historical practices between the pair have
looked like.

IF all sales have been based on, "It grades or I refund,"
a refund is now in order, unless the instant transaction
was orally - or in a listing - excluded from that policy.

OTOH, it is pretty hard for a seller with a black/ultraviolet
light to "accidentally" sell a recolored card. Not impossible,
I guess, but hard.

.......................................

If a buyer who knows as much as I know becomes a chronic
sharpshooter/cherrypicker/lowballer - and complains when I
make a mistake in my favor, but never shares the spoils of
opposite circumstances - I will cut him off.

There is good biz and bad biz; if I don't make money and the
frequent buyer is a frequent complainer, I want rid of him.
Some buyers - no matter how much they spend - are simply
not worth the trouble and the mental aggravation.

If none of those conditions apply here, the seller should likely
refund upon the complaint.

............................................

Then, the other rub:

If a seller KNOWS the card could NOT have been altered AND
that the TPG made a "mistake," he may not feel compelled
to refund regardless of the quality of the buyer.

...............
.....................................

If the subject sale was via EBAY, and less than 45-days has
passed, obviously, PayPal would force the refund.

tedh111 · June 21, 2010 11:17AM

It all depends on the relationship between the buyer and the seller.

larryallen73 · June 21, 2010 12:03PM

It would seem if the guy wants to sell to you in the future he would refund the money. Based on your track record, with him, I should think a refund would be the smart move. I would probably say, "do you want me to ever buy from you again... then do the right thing?" Maybe he thinks you are too much of a pain in the rear and he would rather not sell to you again!?

diamondman · June 21, 2010 3:55PM

1.how many times has he given you a refund for something not grading?
2. how often do you buy from him?
3. what is the percentage? like I have bought 15 cards from him and returned 8 or I have bought 200 cards and returned 3.
4. if it is ebay deal and 45 days has not passed file a SNAD and get a refund.

not on anyone's' side. just curious.

WeekendHacker · June 21, 2010 4:27PM

Not the money is the driving factor - but then again we all know what makes the world go round.......................................are we talking about $40 or $200? I know, I know, principle has a whole bunch to do with it, but I could absorb a loss of $40 (plus sub fee) but if I paid two benjamins for this, I'd want a better answer (and refund) than that - for sure.

MeteoriteGuy · June 21, 2010 9:01PM

<< <i>1.how many times has he given you a refund for something not grading?
2. how often do you buy from him?
3. what is the percentage? like I have bought 15 cards from him and returned 8 or I have bought 200 cards and returned 3.
4. if it is ebay deal and 45 days has not passed file a SNAD and get a refund.

not on anyone's' side. just curious. >>

I agree. Too many factors in life.

WinPitcher · June 21, 2010 10:52PM

I need more information in order to give my candid reply.

Steve

Carew29 · June 21, 2010 11:01PM

I thought this was another waverly82 thread. My bad...

Garabaldi · June 21, 2010 11:50PM

Not smart of the seller to burn a bridge from a good buyer. It would be fair if he refunded you the money of the original purchase price.

RonBurgundy · June 21, 2010 11:55PM

Here are a few more details:

I'm a pretty heavy buyer with this guy. I've gotten some great raw cards from him over the years. He can usually count on me for $1000-2000 per visit, show, etc. Lately his pricing has gotten worse, but I've still found cards worth buying. In 7 years of dealing with him, he has always refunded me (or credit) on cards that came back EOT, altered, etc. Not to say there were many - probably 3 or 4 times, max - but he's always done it without incident. Until now, which is baffling.

Despite my buying, he's historically been difficult to deal with from a personality level. Not just with me, but everyone.

Really, I don't care so much about the money spent on the Perry RC, it's just the sudden about face that's puzzling. I did tell him that if this is the way he's going to be in the future, I'll adjust accordingly, i.e., buy less and be a lot pickier about what I select.

bobbyw8469 · June 22, 2010 12:27AM

Ron, was this card bought in person or over the internet?

RonBurgundy · June 22, 2010 12:28AM

I bought it in person.

KbKards · June 22, 2010 12:48AM

You're only buying cards from him because you can make money selling them. You're not buying anything he can't easily sell to the next card shark that walks up to his table looking to cherry pick him clean of anything of value. You're a sophisticated buyer and know you'll be doubling up on the 1-2 grand of cards you bought from him. He knows it too and it doesn't bother him until you come back crying about a $50 card you both missed in a 1-2 grand deal. Missing a card once in a while is just part of the business you're in. You're only punishing yourself if you stop or cut back your business with him.

itzagoner · June 22, 2010 12:56AM

hmmmm, so kinda like if i buy a buncha properties from you because you don't mind moving several at once, but one happens to fall into a sinkhole and i'm SOL because, well i'm gonna sell the other properties and make a lotta money on 'em so if one happens to be a total loss, well that's okay cuz i'm making money anyways.

sure.

swartz1 · June 22, 2010 1:09AM

Caveat emptor

Morgoth · June 22, 2010 3:08AM

As a dealer I had one large buyer who over the last year has bought well over 10K of cards off me recently call 2 dealers I know and proceeded to tell them how big an idiot I am and that "I must be retarded" for selling my cards so low.

Next show if he comes to my table I am going to let him know that talking to other dealers who know me is not smart and that he is not welcome anymore at my table. I hope he makes stink about it because he is the most smug A-hole I deal with at shows.

Thing is the guy backed out of of a $5300 dollar deal after handing me over the money and leaving the show for 4 hours because "he couldn't make the numbers work after thinking about it".

So Ron how you treat and talk about this guy to other dealers maybe coming back to haunt you if he heard about it.

hhmag70 · June 22, 2010 3:14AM

The seller either stands behind it or he does not. Whether or not you flip the card and make a ton of money or not should not factor into his decision to stand behind his stuff. He is free to raise prices, grade them himself, whatever. Just because you make a profit on them should not change his position.

WinPitcher · June 22, 2010 3:16AM

Now that I have more facts I'd say 'put a rock through his window'

Steve

Mickey71 · June 22, 2010 5:28AM

What does Ron Making money off of cards have anything to do with it?
The guy accepted returns before and should honor a return this time.

Also, I have not heard Ron say anything bad about the dealer. He is just explaining the situation.

If the cards are good enough, I would eat the money. Sounds like a good avenue for good stuff. Ask nicely for a refund and then drop it. Then be more picky next time.

Mickey71

diamondman · June 22, 2010 6:24AM

Ron, sounds like the dealer and you have been dealing for a long time. I think he should refund your money for the Perry, I know if you were a customer of mine for 7 years spending a couple grand every time, I would be refunding your money.

A wise coin/carddealer I knew once said: "Sell it to make a profit but always leave something on the table for the next guy to make a profit".

Keep everyone happy in the food chain of cards, but shoot the scammers and thieves.JMHO

SDavid · June 22, 2010 7:09AM

<< <i>Here are a few more details:

I'm a pretty heavy buyer with this guy. I've gotten some great raw cards from him over the years. He can usually count on me for $1000-2000 per visit, show, etc. Lately his pricing has gotten worse, but I've still found cards worth buying. In 7 years of dealing with him, he has always refunded me (or credit) on cards that came back EOT, altered, etc. Not to say there were many - probably 3 or 4 times, max - but he's always done it without incident. Until now, which is baffling.

Despite my buying, he's historically been difficult to deal with from a personality level. Not just with me, but everyone.

Really, I don't care so much about the money spent on the Perry RC, it's just the sudden about face that's puzzling. I did tell him that if this is the way he's going to be in the future, I'll adjust accordingly, i.e., buy less and be a lot pickier about what I select. >>

That sounds logical, but if you become more selective, he'll probably just up his prices even further.

Sounds to me like the guy is jealous and will only be a pain to deal with in the future.

RonBurgundy · June 22, 2010 7:35AM

Thanks for all the opinions so far. Out of restraint, I felt it wise not to out the guy. If however, it happens again or I see a pattern develop of cards from him coming back rejected by PSA, I may change my mind.

I guess my only thought is, "be consistent". If you won't accept returns, fine. I'll buy accordingly (less). Don't do an about face with the reasoning that because I made money on X, you won't take a return on Y.

larryallen73 · June 22, 2010 7:45AM

It sounds to me like you are approaching this thing pretty rationally.

I would probably give him one more, super friendly, opportunity to do right by you. "Hey, you sure you won't give me a refund on the Perry... in the past you have given me a few refunds and it's one of the reasons I like buying from you.... "

WinPitcher · June 22, 2010 8:49AM

<< <i>I would probably give him one more, super friendly, opportunity to do right by you >>

And if that fails you always have that rock......

Steve

Carew29 · June 22, 2010 12:43PM

From a different prospective Ron..... You say you drop a good amount of coin at this guy's shop.... How many deals over the years has this guy cut you break on a card(s) you really wanted? Once? Twice? I am going to guess several times whether vintage or new product. If not, he's a poor business man. And how many of those cards did you flip for a huge profit with that nice PSA Label on it? I'll guess a few. Now you know where the owner stands; and by his words has placed the ball squarely in your court. You can continue to get those "great deals" or you can move on.

You should however take the oppurtunity to advise the card shop owner of your decision if you depart ways and was it really worth it in the long run for him not to refund?. And wish him the best.

storm888 · June 22, 2010 1:53PM

The practice in another industry........

When a low/mid-tier broker picks up a packet of diamonds in
Antwerp, he is usually not allowed to look at the contents.

If the buyer, for example, pays $500K for a small packet, he
and the seller assume that the buyer will make a profit, but
not always a handsome profit.

If the seller has favorite buyers, he can give them nice packets
from time to time. But, he is under no obligation to do so. And,
buyers do not expect it.

It is a privilege to have access to such sellers AND that privilege
can be lost forever at the whim of the seller. A weak parting
handshake or thank you, a weak parting smile, the wrong tone
of voice can excommunicate a buyer from the trough forever.
Any complaint about a past purchase will preclude any future
purchases.

......................

While none of that protocol is in play with cards, there might
be some elements there to consider when contemplating
having words with anybody who can guarantee you make
some money OR simply not deal with you anymore.

.

So when a dealer says he won't refund me for a recolored Perry RC, what do I say?

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