EBAY rules on dispute
captainthreeputt
Posts: 1,235 ✭✭
Hi Guys,
I was foolish enough to buy three cards in one lot that did not have scans. He represented them as EX+, EX, VG-EX. When they arrived they were EX, G, VG in that order. The second card is horrible. Not only is a PSA 2 at best, but it is totally off center, almost a miscut. The seller says he stated no returns. If you state no returns, are you allowed to totally misrepresent your cards?
I offered to pay him for his initial postage, I told him I would keep the two cards that were only one grade off of what he claimed. He sticks by he stated no returns. What do you think will be the outcome?
I was foolish enough to buy three cards in one lot that did not have scans. He represented them as EX+, EX, VG-EX. When they arrived they were EX, G, VG in that order. The second card is horrible. Not only is a PSA 2 at best, but it is totally off center, almost a miscut. The seller says he stated no returns. If you state no returns, are you allowed to totally misrepresent your cards?
I offered to pay him for his initial postage, I told him I would keep the two cards that were only one grade off of what he claimed. He sticks by he stated no returns. What do you think will be the outcome?
1911 C55 hockey
1935 National Chicle
1961 Golden Press
1962 Bell Brand Dodgers
Top 200 cards in the hobby
Top 250 cards in the hobby
All time lakers
All time Dodgers
1957 Disney Characters
1965 Donruss Disneyland
1966 Get Smart
Brian
1935 National Chicle
1961 Golden Press
1962 Bell Brand Dodgers
Top 200 cards in the hobby
Top 250 cards in the hobby
All time lakers
All time Dodgers
1957 Disney Characters
1965 Donruss Disneyland
1966 Get Smart
Brian
0
Comments
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
"I was foolish enough to buy three cards in one lot that did not have scans."
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>I think you answered your own question ..........
"I was foolish enough to buy three cards in one lot that did not have scans." >>
Perhaps you should read his question....that hardly makes a good answer.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
"...Why would anybody buy cards with no scans from a seller with no return policy?..."
///////////////////////////////////
Because EBAY/PayPal places ALL of the risk in such transactions
on the seller.
<< <i>"...Why would anybody buy cards with no scans from a seller with no return policy?..."
///////////////////////////////////
Because EBAY/PayPal places ALL of the risk in such transactions
on the seller. >>
Thats exactly right......its ALWAYS (up to $2,000) a "freeroll" for the ebay buyer!
<< <i>"...Why would anybody buy cards with no scans from a seller with no return policy?..."
///////////////////////////////////
Because EBAY/PayPal places ALL of the risk in such transactions
on the seller. >>
That's one of the reason's I wonder why so many people won't ship to Canada because DC is so costly. If you're selling to a scammer DC isn't going to help you anyway. But I guess if you pretend it will you can feel better about it.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
"... If you're selling to a scammer DC isn't going to help you anyway. But I guess if you pretend it will you can feel better about it....."
///////////////////////////////////////////////
DC does protect against fraudulent INR claims.
Nothing protects against bogus SNAD-claims that
involve switched items.
....................................
buy.com 99.7%
DSRs all 4.9
Recent Feedback Ratings (last 12 months)
1 month... 6 months... 12 months
Positive 36132... 338490... 728150
Neutral 286... 1657... 3036
Negative 145... 1255... 2134
The venue really only wants mega-sellers. They are
the only ones that can use the theory of large numbers
to avoid meaningful losses on INR/SNAD claims AND
still have "excellent" FB.
"...There are a lot of ebay sellers on this forum,..."
////////////////////////////////
Very true.
But, that does not mean they are biased against honest buyers
that are harned by dishonest sellers.
The population of dishonest sellers has declined radically. The
population of dishonest buyers has SOARED.
<< <i>"... If you're selling to a scammer DC isn't going to help you anyway. But I guess if you pretend it will you can feel better about it....."
///////////////////////////////////////////////
DC does protect against fraudulent INR claims.
Nothing protects against bogus SNAD-claims that
involve switched items.
.................................. >>
My point exactly. If you're dealing with a scammer you're screwed either way.
I do not know why I have to defend myself, but I am on top of many categories on the PSA registry. I have purchased 265 items on ebay and only one other dispute because the card was a fake. I could tell immediately when I received it, but still at my own expense sent it to PSA to get it authenticated. I have made quite a few transactions on this board with no issues. Many of them I sent a personal checks or cash. I have sent free cards to some on this board and some have been tobacco cards. I also just sent a board member who I have never met to a Dodger game with his family, because he is a big Dodger fan and I have season seats. I was not trying to blackmail the seller, I just wanted my money back. I told him the issue was just the one card, and if he wanted I would keep the other two.
I was just trying to get some advice from those with more experience than me. I have not had one bad transaction with any board members and if you care at all, they have been with the outstanding members here on the board. Positive transactions with:
Digicat, Ahmanfan, MBMiller25, baman90298, BigDaddyBowman(By the way BigDAddy if you read this, send me a PM, I would like to get a couple more of your 1935 Chicle), Nike24801, Swartz1, handyman, daddymc, Davemri, Aro13, packman. This was just to name a few.
1935 National Chicle
1961 Golden Press
1962 Bell Brand Dodgers
Top 200 cards in the hobby
Top 250 cards in the hobby
All time lakers
All time Dodgers
1957 Disney Characters
1965 Donruss Disneyland
1966 Get Smart
Brian
<< <i>"...There are a lot of ebay sellers on this forum,..."
////////////////////////////////
Very true.
But, that does not mean they are biased against honest buyers
that are harned by dishonest sellers.
The population of dishonest sellers has declined radically. The
population of dishonest buyers has SOARED. >>
I really don't see how the ebay seller in this case can be defended much. Not having scans? How many sellers on ebay sell cards w/o scans? And most sellers have a return policy on raw cards and no return policy on graded cards. Therefore, I would think the the balance tips towards the seller being dishonest in this case.
I don't know if I agree with the statement that the population of dishonest sellers has declined rapidly. There are still huge bunches of them out there trying to catch suckers. For example, when I was looking at game used cards this past week, there were a bunch of sellers who were selling "replica" autographs that were certified 1/1. They were obviously trying to catch buyers who would confuse replica with relic autos, and think that the autographs were genuine. And please don't tell me about all of the items that are described as "I found this in my grandfather's attic, it looks like a worn card that is 80 years old, but I'm selling it as a reprint." These are obviously trying to catch naive buyers out there. I have no idea why ebay doesn't ban these sellers.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
"...I have no idea why ebay doesn't ban these sellers...."
//////////////////////////////////////
EBAY/PayPal does not like to "ban" profit centers.
BUT, the policies of EBAY/PayPal have made it VERY
hard for crooked sellers to steal from buyers. Those
same policies have made it SUPER easy for crooked
buyers to STEAL from honest sellers.
...........
I don't think anybody is defending the OP's seller.
The OP can simply file a SNAD and get his money
promptly refunded.
EBAY/PayPal believe that there is no assumption of
risk when a buyer orders an item from a listing that
has no scans. Legally, that is the correct policy for
them to maintain; I agree with it.
Amazing how the seller now wants to work something out. He wants me to post the one card on ebay for $300 and he said he will buy it back. Why would I give him the opportunity to first not buy it back, and second give me a bad feedback. If he would have offered to refund me the $300 on the one card in the beginning, we would never have had a problem.
If he were willing to give me a refund, and then I send the card back, do I have any exposure?
1935 National Chicle
1961 Golden Press
1962 Bell Brand Dodgers
Top 200 cards in the hobby
Top 250 cards in the hobby
All time lakers
All time Dodgers
1957 Disney Characters
1965 Donruss Disneyland
1966 Get Smart
Brian
//////////////////////////////////
Follow EBAY/PP's instructions.
Return the card with Signature Confirmation and insure it.
When the SC shows as "delivered" on the USPS site, your
refund will be finalized.
<< <i>There are a lot of ebay sellers on this forum, but as a buyer, I would first say, how much did you pay for the cards? If you didn't pay much for the cards, I would say, just eat the issue as your loss, but tell the seller that you will be giving them neutral feedback. The feedback is neutral because it is partially your fault b/c you knew the seller did not take returns and you did not ask for scans. However, you strongly believe the seller misrepresented the grades of the cards. If you paid a significant amount of money for the cards, you would log a case w/ ebay, and return the cards. You would probably need to return all of the cards, even the ones that were close to the correct grade. As mentioned by other posters, ebay leans in favor of the buyer, and with ebay buyer protection, you would have a very good chance to get your money back (not including the cost to ship the cards back). >>
why neutral...he said the cards were Ex+, Ex and VG-Ex. seller sees otherwise. there were no scans but that should have no barring on the feedback. you did get the cards you bought. so why just not leave any feedback instead of neutral...kind of seems like feedback hostage in reverse.
Collecting:
Brett Favre Master Set
Favre Ticket Stubs
Favre TD Reciever Autos
Football HOF Player/etc. Auto Set
Football HOF Rc's
1935 National Chicle
1961 Golden Press
1962 Bell Brand Dodgers
Top 200 cards in the hobby
Top 250 cards in the hobby
All time lakers
All time Dodgers
1957 Disney Characters
1965 Donruss Disneyland
1966 Get Smart
Brian
<< <i>"...If he were willing to give me a refund, and then I send the card back, do I have any exposure?..."
//////////////////////////////////
Follow EBAY/PP's instructions.
Return the card with Signature Confirmation and insure it.
When the SC shows as "delivered" on the USPS site, your
refund will be finalized. >>
Whats to keep the buyer from mailing back a 1987 Topps Dwight Evans then?
"...Whats to keep the buyer from mailing back a 1987 Topps Dwight Evans then?..."
//////////////////////////
The honesty of the buyer.
<< <i>Listen to and follow Storm's advice, He is a wealth of knowledge on these subjects. >>
and more
My instincts is that this person is thinking you might leave negative feedback, and wants to have a chance to retaliate with leave neg feedback, that's why he/she wants you to put it on auction. Just to add... never buy a card raw unless you see a pic of it(you probably know this by now). The pics may not show exactly about every little detail about the card, but it's something.
You'll probably make the seller feel more comfortable by telling him/her that you won't leave any feedback at all.
I would cut off all communications with this seller and just mail the cards back (with DC).
<< <i>Hey guys,
I do not know why I have to defend myself, but I am on top of many categories on the PSA registry. I have purchased 265 items on ebay and only one other dispute because the card was a fake. I could tell immediately when I received it, but still at my own expense sent it to PSA to get it authenticated. I have made quite a few transactions on this board with no issues. Many of them I sent a personal checks or cash. I have sent free cards to some on this board and some have been tobacco cards. I also just sent a board member who I have never met to a Dodger game with his family, because he is a big Dodger fan and I have season seats. I was not trying to blackmail the seller, I just wanted my money back. I told him the issue was just the one card, and if he wanted I would keep the other two.
I was just trying to get some advice from those with more experience than me. I have not had one bad transaction with any board members and if you care at all, they have been with the outstanding members here on the board. Positive transactions with:
Digicat, Ahmanfan, MBMiller25, baman90298, BigDaddyBowman(By the way BigDAddy if you read this, send me a PM, I would like to get a couple more of your 1935 Chicle), Nike24801, Swartz1, handyman, daddymc, Davemri, Aro13, packman. This was just to name a few. >>
I don't know what you feel the need to defend yourself. No one said you were a cheat or the like, and I think it is only I that mentioned anything that resembles this, and no where did I say your were a scammer.
Only that "Your message likely sounded scammish." I think you will have a hard time finding any dealer that will take part of a lot back. The general rule is refund everything or nothing. There are many scammers who will try...and often succeed in forcing the dealer to refund part of the payment, or the like.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
"...I would cut off all communications with this seller and just mail the cards back (with DC). ..."
//////////////////////////////////////
No one who has had a claim filed against them should
ever communicate with the filing party outside of the
PayPal/EBAY resolution panel.
Items over $249.99 must be returned with Signature
Confirmation. DC is not PayPal compliant.
<< <i>"...I would cut off all communications with this seller and just mail the cards back (with DC). ..."
//////////////////////////////////////
No one who has had a claim filed against them should
ever communicate with the filing party outside of the
PayPal/EBAY resolution panel.
Items over $249.99 must be returned with Signature
Confirmation. DC is not PayPal compliant. >>
EXACTLY you will NEED signature confirmation if this is over $249.99
<< <i>Well the outcome is in, Ebay looked at my transactions versus his 3 sales and I was awarded the winner of the dispute. Ebay is actually sending me a return label for free shipping.
Amazing how the seller now wants to work something out. He wants me to post the one card on ebay for $300 and he said he will buy it back. Why would I give him the opportunity to first not buy it back, and second give me a bad feedback. If he would have offered to refund me the $300 on the one card in the beginning, we would never have had a problem.
If he were willing to give me a refund, and then I send the card back, do I have any exposure? >>
if I am reading this right?
1. why would the seller give you a refund and then wait for you to return the card? (ebay policy is that buyer returns item and then seller gives refund).
2. this thread would be better if we had scans of the cards in question!
3. out the seller because it sounds very fishy/scamy that the seller wants you to list the card so he can buy back his own card from you
4. if the item is over 250 make sure you get signature con upon returning it to protect yourself.
5.JMHO .
JOhn
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>EXACTLY you will NEED signature confirmation if this is over $249.99 >>
And he say's you mailed back toilet paper... then what? Does it ever end?.. Serenity now!!!
Not sure why I'm chimming all this in on captainthreeputt's thread. Just the way I'm feeling about ebay these days in general I guess.
<< <i>I'm curious why typically sellers will take returns on raw cards but have a no return policy on graded cards. I figure a graded card is easier to make sure you are getting the same one back, but a raw card could be switched and be a his word- against- mine scenario.
JOhn >>
With graded cards, the buyer know exactly the quality of card that he is getting. If there is a hairline crease in the card that still grades out to PSA3, it's still PSA3 quality with the third party grading. With raw cards, there may be something that is not visible in the scans like the hairline crease that would lower the quality of the card from what is in the scan. Or more likely, when you receive the card, you determine that it's trimmed only when you receive it as one side is definitely shorter than it should be, and this is not something you would be able to tell from a scan. In regards to returning the card, you can usually tell that the card is not switched b/c of characteristics in the card from the scan, e.g., centering.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm curious why typically sellers will take returns on raw cards but have a no return policy on graded cards. I figure a graded card is easier to make sure you are getting the same one back, but a raw card could be switched and be a his word- against- mine scenario.
JOhn >>
With graded cards, the buyer know exactly the quality of card that he is getting. If there is a hairline crease in the card that still grades out to PSA3, it's still PSA3 quality with the third party grading. With raw cards, there may be something that is not visible in the scans like the hairline crease that would lower the quality of the card from what is in the scan. Or more likely, when you receive the card, you determine that it's trimmed only when you receive it as one side is definitely shorter than it should be, and this is not something you would be able to tell from a scan. In regards to returning the card, you can usually tell that the card is not switched b/c of characteristics in the card from the scan, e.g., centering. >>
A return on a graded card, in general, is buyers remorse. You know what you are buying before hand. There is no reason to make such a return, unless you bought the wrong card, changed your mind or find the same card cheaper....which is typical with graded cards, first goes for $50, second for $40..maybe the third for $25. Buyers remorse, or impaitence for the cheaper card, is not a valid reason to waste someone else's time/money over.
Or at least it use to not be....now it doesn't matter. Return the card, seller still gets charged, and you can whack 'em on feedback.
I will likely be leavng eBay again for a while...at least until all the changes slow down. It is not my desire to redo my auctions every two months, which eBay seems to believe I should. Such as the latest "new" or "use" thing. Which mind you, I am usually unsure how to answer due to the mechandise I sell.
Is a first day cover used? Is a 1986 Topps PSA 10 used? How about the same in a PSA 8....from the same box.
One of several million that is STILL waiting for a viable ebay alternative....we need a hero.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
///////////////////////////////////////
Most folks list TPGd items on EBAY to turn those items into money
with finality; via a certain, easy/simple process: list-sell-collect-ship.
Adding a second set of steps to that protocol changes the process into
an approval service that ill-serves the seller.
list
sell
collect
ship
get buyer approval/rejection
process/issue refund
receive returned item
relist item
sell
collect
ship
REPEAT
TPGd items are meant to be suitable for sale/trade sight unseen -
with an adequate scan - based on the "expert opinion" of an
unbiased third-party.
Issuing refunds on TPGd items defeats the seller's purpose of
using a TPG to grade/authenticate items. If forced refunds are
in the mix, the seller is better off selling raw items, hoping for
the best outcome, and issuing refunds as necessary.
Issuing refunds on raw items is an expected and warranted
part of the biznez. Doing so on TPGd items - that are
properly listed and arrive undamaged - is nonsense and
an abuse of sellers' time and money.
Allowng unsophisticated buyers to substitute their grading
"expertise" for that of a TPG is ludicrous.
Allowing sharpshooters - looking for bumpable items - to
use EBAY as a risk-free hunting ground is a travesty.
Paying EBAY to run "approval ads" is a throwback to a simpler
and inferior sale process. I do not need to pay EBAY for their "help"
in running an approval service; I need them ONLY to generate sales
that stick.
...........................
Under EBAY's written policy, it is NOT possible for a properly
listed TPGd item that arrives intact/undamaged to be "SNAD."
EBAY policy says:
Trading cards
Grade your trading cards with:
Beckett Grading Services (BGS)
Global Authority
Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA)
Sportcard Guaranty (SGC)
EBAY/PayPal policy says:
An item is not Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) if it is materially similar to the Seller’s item listing description. Here are some examples:
The defect in the item was correctly described by the Seller.
The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.
The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.
The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.
Combined with a seller's correctly stated "NO RETURNS" policy, the final
sale of TPGd items is bulletproof in almost ANY court in America.
EBAY/PayPal believes they can dictate otherwise, but they can ONLY do
so because few sellers find it worthwhile to constest bogus SNAD claims
in relation to TPGd items. They simply issue a refund.
(In October, fraudulent SNAD claims will soar. Sellers who have either
a SNAD or an INR dispute/claim filed will be penalized by EBAY; many
will be suspended or NARUd. Small sellers will either rollover or leave,
and EBAY will be a step closer to becoming megasellerville.)
...........................
Abuse of the SNAD process is rampant on EBAY, in all categories. Corrupt
buyers hold ALL of the cards, and sellers simply accept it or leave.
Obviously, it is appropriate for a seller to offer a wide-open return policy
on TPGd items if he chooses to do so. If he does not so choose, he should
not be forced by a "mere venue" to do so.
Buyer fraud in PayPal transactions is negligible on off-EBAY venues. Since
no SNAD decisions are made by PayPal on such venues, they are much
safer for sellers.
Some venues - like Ruby Lane - have a mandatory refund policy. That
is clearly the direction that EBAY is headed. The policy works on Ruby
Lane because the quality of buyers is near sterling; the same policy
will crush small EBAY sellers because the quality of EBAY buyers is at
the lowest end of the scale.
.......................................
"...One of several million that is STILL waiting for a viable ebay alternative....we need a hero...."
/////////////////////////////////
It will NEVER happen.
Start your own website, work hard, and you can be your own hero.