If you like clash marks...

zap1111 · June 12, 2010 4:15AM

Here's an 1813 O.109 CBH that's loaded with interesting clash marks. Many of the usuals are here (eg letters above the date, etc.) - what captured my attention were the clashed feathers in front of the profile - these seem to be much more unusual. I've always enjoyed a shield clashing that shows both the crossbars (azures) and stripes (gules), as well. Additionally, the flat stars, rim damage from decaying dies and the die crack up through stars 1-7 give a collector all sorts of things to ponder. This is an R.3 coin, loaded with luster.

I purchased this from Ed Richter back in 2008, for a while a generous mentor. Anybody hear from him lately? He used to post regularly.

JRocco · June 12, 2010 5:04AM

Nice coin zap.
I don't know where Ed went either.
Hope he still has his set intact.
Let me add to this party

How about this one?

zap1111 · June 12, 2010 7:30AM

Hey JRocco,

I've just spent a bit of time comparing our examples. Your top one seems to be a double clash (looking at the lettering) spaced very closely. Mine is also a double but the 2nd set of letters shows up faintly and below (farther from the date) than the prominent one you can easily see in the photo. Your die crack along the stars seems fainter than mine. I have an angling die crack up through the lower loop of the 8 to the top of the 3. I'm hard pressed to see that on yours, although the shift in toning appears to follow the same line. Are your stripe clashes doubled? Hard to tell. Your bottom example looks like the eagle ate a cracker and is dropping crumbs. Both look to be LDS - arrow shafts broken and arrow claw disembodied - esp the bottom one. And then there's that whole single leaf discussion...

Thanks!
zap

messydesk · June 12, 2010 9:07AM

Here's an 1814 O-103 (is it O-103a with the clash?) I like that I shot for a BHD collector (RIP) a few years ago:

lkeigwin · June 12, 2010 9:28AM

And another 1814 O.103 with lots of clashing.
Lance.

zap1111 · June 12, 2010 10:17AM

Lance, that 1814 O.103 is gorgeous - triple clash, it seems. John, I like the original dirty toning on your example, too. It's very interesting to compare the little areas under each of the numerals in each date.

JRocco · June 12, 2010 10:28AM

Hey zap,
You are right. The coin shows clear well spaced double clashing. But to
be honest, it really shows multiple clashing with a glass.
You can see some double clashing with extra crossbars showing between the hair curls also.

Lewy · June 12, 2010 11:03AM

I am not really sure if I am missing the entire point here or maybe I come from a universe where the laws of physics are applied differently, but my response to all of this clashing being pointed out is ho hum and to be expected during clashes, but the stripes and crossbars around and under the ear area?

I am still baffled to the point of near disbelief about those stripes and crossbars. I know that I asked you guys before how does a depression leave an impression in another depression during a clash? Am I asking the wrong folks about how that happened?

messydesk · June 12, 2010 11:31AM

The forward part of the cheek is the highest relief on the obverse. The relief then gets lower and lower until at the recessed area around the ear it is probably even with the fields, making it quite vulnerable from a clash from the shield. The shield is also even with the field, therefore pretty high on the die.

JRocco · June 12, 2010 11:31AM

<< <i> I am still baffled to the point of near disbelief about those stripes and crossbars. I know that I asked you guys before how does a depression leave an impression in another depression during a clash? >>

That is a really good question Lewy

Here is another example on my 1814 O-105a single leaf

zap1111 · June 12, 2010 11:31AM

Lewy,

Great question. I think it's confusing, too, until I remind myself of how symmetrical the design on the shield is with its stripes and crossbars, and how deceptive this might be. What comes out looking like the actual stripes and crossbars are really the spaces between them now "sticking out" - the negative spaces/depressions in the original design have reversed their function. These parts of the die would have "stuck out," and when clashed, created the depressions that then lead to the clashes sticking out. We're not really seeing the shield in this clash, we're seeing it's reversed image, which looks like the original due to the basic symmetry of the design.

I think...
zap

zap1111 · June 12, 2010 11:40AM

Another ear bar example:

1827 O.106

JRocco · June 12, 2010 12:00PM

And the 1812 O-109a - also showing triple clashing

Lewy · June 12, 2010 12:07PM

Thanks all, John, zap, JR.....Yes you are all correct I have little doubt.

I do suspect that the main point that I have been missing is that the dies were very crudely made, and very imperfect. The same reason that they did not hold up very well is probably the same reason that these crossbars and stripes show up on some early varieties and not on others.

Just as some of these early varieties seemed to sink and deteriorate from the center rather than the periphery, some of the dies were probably concave in facial topography and others were nearly flat (while still others may have been slightly convex which would lend to the crossbar/stripe transfer during clash).

A die pair that is optimally slightly concave in its faces could not leave these marks on the opposing die.

Thanks again for setting me straight guys.

Lewy · June 12, 2010 12:44PM

I am glad that this thread came along zap.

I am actually learning something here that everyone else already probably knew and had stated before, but I just wasn't smart enough to decipher the words.

I would imagine that the lack of topographical die face symmetry also might explain variety specific flaws such as area weaknesses and premature fissures?

zap1111 · June 12, 2010 1:31PM

Lewy,

I'm still relatively a rookie at this, even 10 years into the series. It's fascinating. I would think most of the answers to the intriguing questions banging around in your head are answered by the old pros of the series - Edgar Souders, Sheridan Downey and then of course, the mentors on this board like slumlord, mozin, JRocco, et al. It sure seems like you have an interest in the making of the coins that goes deep into process! These are excellent questions.
zap

If you like clash marks...

Comments

Leave a Comment